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  • #61
    thborn

    God reconciled believers to himself while still enemies.
    You mean while still unbelievers ? Were they reconciled to God by Christs death even as unbeliever ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
      thborn



      You mean while still unbelievers ? Were they reconciled to God by Christs death even as unbeliever ?
      Yes. Scripture says so in many places. God knows each of us before we are born. He chose each of His children long ago. Scripture indicates that the future reconciliation is not in question as far as God is concerned. God's love is basically unconditional.

      Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
      1:5 In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

      All of this happens long before any person first believes in Christ (and even that, I believe, is an act of grace...otherwise it's too much like a work, like someone saving him or herself).

      To give greater glory to God, I do not believe God determines every single evil thing that people do, but God clearly made everyone a certain way and predestined every human being.

      Of course, Christ's atoning blood is absolutely essential. And Paul makes it clear that, despite having always been chosen, he is still struggling, and he advises the Believers in Ephesians 5:15 to "be very careful, then, how you live". It seems to me that Scripture consistently shows the elect unstoppably growing in holiness. But it seems there is still an old self and new self, at least for a time (Ephesians 4:20-24), with the new self being perhaps the true self for God's children?
      Last edited by thborn; May 20th, 2020, 10:51 PM.

      Comment


      • #63
        thborn

        Yes. Scripture says so in many places.
        Agreed. So its absurd to believe and teach that Christ died for all without exception since all without exception arent reconciled to God by His death while being enemies. You agree ?
        "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
        preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
        called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
        a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

        Charles Spurgeon !

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          thborn



          Agreed. So its absurd to believe and teach that Christ died for all without exception since all without exception aren't reconciled to God by His death while being enemies. You agree ?
          Yes. I personally would not use the word 'absurd,' out of respect for God and the the sense of the fullness of his love expressed in Scripture. Nor is the issue vital to how the Believer should act in this life (out of radical love and denial of self, though this is really God working in us).

          But from a purely logical and technical standpoint I agree with you.

          Here are a few reasons why:

          1. While on earth, it may be that Jesus did not know everything that was to happen to the degree that the Father does. But he taught that some were ultimately going to eternal punishment.

          2. Romans 9, at least in the translation I'm using, states that some are destined for destruction. As long as this is true for one person, then Christ did not die for all.

          I'm sure you've often had people bring up Romans 5:18-19, which has the phrase "justification that brings life for all men" and then in the next verse uses the term "the many."
          I think there are ways to reconcile this with the verses that speak of predestination. Perhaps it's a matter of translation? Or perhaps it's that, yes, life was made available to all in some sense, and though all might be able to witness and experience it, not all are spiritually able to possess it?

          There are a couple strains expressed in Scripture in regards to determinism, and I do not believe the Believer has to completely reconcile them in order to have eternal life or teach authentically. For example, there's the question of why we are encouraged to makes requests and pray for others if much is predestined. There's the question of why and in what sense God predestines some for destruction if God's love is also vast, powerful, ultimate, and unequaled (which it is). I don't hold that one must or necessarily can reconcile these questions in this life.

          Comment


          • #65
            thborne

            Yes. I personally would not use the word 'absurd,' out of respect for God and the the sense of the fullness of his love expressed in Scripture.
            Thats the difference between me and you, those are reasons why I use the word absurd, out of respect to God and the fulllness of His Love in Christ !

            yes, life was made available to all in some sense, and though all might be able to witness and experience it, not all are spiritually able to possess it?
            False, nothing in scripture about Life being made available, neither is Rom 5:18 stating that, not by a long shot.
            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              thborne



              Thats the difference between me and you, those are reasons why I use the word absurd, out of respect to God and the fulllness of His Love in Christ !
              Maybe I'm wrong.

              I long to see someone look unflinchingly at Scripture...who can reconcile predestination and love in Scriptural Truth. I am hoping you are such a person.

              Yes, the above is an interesting difference between us. Is it really important beyond the personal, however, if we both believe the same underlying truths? I still think we might, as long as the Calvinist and determinist positions you are advancing are Scriptural and thus simply the Truth...and If I am in error, I hope that this discussion is the means that I may be brought to any essential truth I am missing.

              What do you think the fullness of God's love in Christ is? One reason many people find Biblical predestination difficult is that they think it goes against what they see as God's love. They find it hard to reconcile with other verses, like Luke 15:7: I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

              But there isn't any contradiction. The sinner does not have to have free will in order for someone to be able to rejoice over this huge change in them.

              What do you think predestination is? You could argue that it is simply God using His right to make each person holy or doomed in order to show His glory, and Romans Chapter 9 makes it clear that God does this and has the right to do this. And I agree with that. But is there another dimension to it? Has God perhaps also done what He has in many cases because this is the best possible world? And we can't understand how, because we can't look ahead and see the big picture like God can?

              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              thborne

              False, nothing in scripture about Life being made available, neither is Rom 5:18 stating that, not by a long shot.
              I agree, life is not available to all.

              Maybe I was being too vague or mystical earlier. Or just wondering aloud. Just trying to reconcile the phrase "all men". Like I said, maybe it's a type of translation error. Or something we can't yet fully understand.
              Last edited by thborn; May 23rd, 2020, 09:46 AM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by thborn View Post

                Maybe I'm wrong.

                I long to see someone look unflinchingly at Scripture...who can reconcile predestination and love in Scriptural Truth. I am hoping you are such a person.

                Yes, the above is an interesting difference between us. Is it really important beyond the personal, however, if we both believe the same underlying truths? I still think we might, as long as the Calvinist and determinist positions you are advancing are Scriptural and thus simply the Truth...and If I am in error, I hope that this discussion is the means that I may be brought to any essential truth I am missing.

                What do you think the fullness of God's love in Christ is? One reason many people find Biblical predestination difficult is that they think it goes against what they see as God's love. They find it hard to reconcile with other verses, like Luke 15:7: I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

                But there isn't any contradiction. The sinner does not have to have free will in order for someone to be able to rejoice over this huge change in them.

                What do you think predestination is? You could argue that it is simply God using His right to make each person holy or doomed in order to show His glory, and Romans Chapter 9 makes it clear that God does this and has the right to do this. And I agree with that. But is there another dimension to it? Has God perhaps also done what He has in many cases because this is the best possible world? And we can't understand how, because we can't look ahead and see the big picture like God can?



                I agree, life is not available to all.

                Maybe I was being too vague or mystical earlier. Or just wondering aloud. Just trying to reconcile the phrase "all men". Like I said, maybe it's a type of translation error. Or something we can't yet fully understand.
                What Calvinists teach, there is no such thing anywhere in the Bible, nowhere.

                God does not save unbelievers, period.

                The Calvinists must make it that God saves unbelievers and causes them supernaturally to believe. That goes against the scriptures where God tells us to believe.

                Again, nowhere anywhere do the scriptures say God saves unbelievers.

                Comment


                • #68
                  gt

                  God does not save unbelievers, period.
                  That's false and it's the same as saying God does not save sinners.
                  "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                  preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                  called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                  a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                  Charles Spurgeon !

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                    What Calvinists teach, there is no such thing anywhere in the Bible, nowhere.
                    In my humble opinion, there are many true Believers who call themselves 'Calvinists' who honor God by emphasizing his sovereignty. Anyone who follows Scripture really deeply is something of a Calvinist, as well as something of a Dispensationalist, and a born-again, and simply a gentle loving saved elect Child of God.

                    I am not clear about what some Calvinists teach about God's love and about the origins of sin, but I need to learn more before this.

                    It is a challenge to understand how God's sovereignty, predestination, His awesome and ultimate love, God's grace, and Paul's call to belief and action all come together.

                    I think it has something to do with God's knowing his beloved children before they were created.

                    But maybe I just haven't been give the full answer because I'm not one of the elect. Or I didn't truly believe on the day when I believed (but if there's any hope for me, please help me, through God's grace, if you have the answer, whoever you are out there)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                      gt



                      That's false and it's the same as saying God does not save sinners.
                      Amen!

                      What beloved57 is saying here is totally in line with Scripture and in acknowledgment of God's Grace.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                        gt



                        That's false and it's the same as saying God does not save sinners.
                        One must be a believing sinner that repents of their sins.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by thborn View Post

                          Amen!

                          What beloved57 is saying here is totally in line with Scripture and in acknowledgment of God's Grace.
                          God does not save UNBELIEVERS and UNREPENTANT sinners. That is what the scriptures say.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                            God does not save UNBELIEVERS and UNREPENTANT sinners. That is what the scriptures say.

                            The Elect, those Christ died for, are reconciled to God while unconverted and enemies.

                            Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                            My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever;
                            when shall I be brought in to see His Face? - Psalm 42:2

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by thborn View Post

                              In my humble opinion, there are many true Believers who call themselves 'Calvinists' who honor God by emphasizing his sovereignty.
                              How do you get it is emphasizing God's sovereignty to preach not to believe and obey God because you can't?


                              Originally posted by thborn View Post

                              Anyone who follows Scripture really deeply is something of a Calvinist, as well as something of a Dispensationalist, and a born-again, and simply a gentle loving saved elect Child of God.
                              The Bible says that Satan ensnares people to preach false doctrines!

                              Originally posted by thborn View Post

                              I am not clear about what some Calvinists teach about God's love and about the origins of sin, but I need to learn more before this.
                              I hope that you do consider more carefully what it is you already defend but admit you don't know.

                              Originally posted by thborn View Post
                              It is a challenge to understand how God's sovereignty, predestination, His awesome and ultimate love, God's grace, and Paul's call to belief and action all come together.

                              I think it has something to do with God's knowing his beloved children before they were created.
                              God knowing beforehand who will believe and love Him is NOT predestination.


                              Originally posted by thborn View Post
                              But maybe I just haven't been give the full answer because I'm not one of the elect. Or I didn't truly believe on the day when I believed (but if there's any hope for me, please help me, through God's grace, if you have the answer, whoever you are out there)
                              I would like to help you. I understand that you are searching for God and His Truth, and not man's truth. I will tell you how to find out.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Nanja View Post


                                The Elect, those Christ died for, are reconciled to God while unconverted and enemies.

                                Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
                                Your Calvinist teachers taught you wrong. That scripture is about ALL GENTILES who are saved are saved while they were enemies of God that did not get CIRCUMCISED in the flesn!

                                Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

                                Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

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