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  • #16
    Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    Amen Sister they had been ordained to eternal life so consequently they believe Acts 13:48

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    Amen exactly Brother !
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever;
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? - Psalm 42:2

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    • #17
      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

      Sounds like to me you are taking things in another direction. First of all do you understand my point?
      Your point is an important one. Scripture speaks of elect/chosen/believers who are foreknown and predestined (Romans 8:29-30), who are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). You point out in John 17 that God is speaking not just of His disciples at that time but others later who shall believe after having the Gospel preached to them (if my reading of John 17 is correct in light of what you have pointed out?). It is not just that Christ has made a path to salvation...Christ's sacrifice is salvation. We can have confidence that all who are chosen will firmly believe the Gospel Paul preached, and all who believe it in their hearts will stand, for the lord is able to make one stand (Romans 14:4). They were reconciled to God while still enemies (Romans 5:10) but are sanctified in Christ who indeed is the Truth.

      The Truth sets them free and will no longer be slaves to sin but in the light. Despite having been children of wrath, though vessels of mercy instead of vessels of wrath, they are now a new creation... the spiritual person instead of the natural person of Corinthians 2:14-16. They were once in the flesh, but there is no condemnation for those who are now in Him (Romans 8:1)...they were made holy by Christ's sacrifice and this generally becomes more and more evident to others as they live their lives in the Body of Christ and turn from sin and run the race. While there is mystery in the nature of God and His love that we will later see more clearly, Scripture clearly states how we should humbly view ourselves and our choices and actions: God’s grace that works in one (as in Phillipians 2:13). Also Ephesians 1:23, the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way.... (though care should be taken not to equate everything with God; there is no evil in Him). Paul knew did not claim it was he and his disciples doing God's loving work but rather grace working in them.

      All of this is true and it is a shame that many only emphasize believing. For while we have to have believed Paul's Gospel to be among those who were saved by grace, one who is saved by grace and thus believes will, I think, also become humble and be willing to give God the credit for everything, including believing, rather than dogmatically insist on and emphasize their own role as primary. Because that is too close to saving oneself through a work one does, which we hopefully all agree is a false idea of salvation. There is believing, but there is also what comes before believing, and what comes after believing. I have certainly been a child of wrath and so proud and greedy, but through grace one can place their hope in Christ to be delivered from their body of sin if it be according to His will and they are not among those vessels of wrath He withdraws from.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by thborn View Post

        Your point is an important one. Scripture speaks of elect/chosen/believers who are foreknown and predestined (Romans 8:29-30), who are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). You point out in John 17 that God is speaking not just of His disciples at that time but others later who shall believe after having the Gospel preached to them (if my reading of John 17 is correct in light of what you have pointed out?). It is not just that Christ has made a path to salvation...Christ's sacrifice is salvation. We can have confidence that all who are chosen will firmly believe the Gospel Paul preached, and all who believe it in their hearts will stand, for the lord is able to make one stand (Romans 14:4). They were reconciled to God while still enemies (Romans 5:10) but are sanctified in Christ who indeed is the Truth.

        The Truth sets them free and will no longer be slaves to sin but in the light. Despite having been children of wrath, though vessels of mercy instead of vessels of wrath, they are now a new creation... the spiritual person instead of the natural person of Corinthians 2:14-16. They were once in the flesh, but there is no condemnation for those who are now in Him (Romans 8:1)...they were made holy by Christ's sacrifice and this generally becomes more and more evident to others as they live their lives in the Body of Christ and turn from sin and run the race. While there is mystery in the nature of God and His love that we will later see more clearly, Scripture clearly states how we should humbly view ourselves and our choices and actions: God’s grace that works in one (as in Phillipians 2:13). Also Ephesians 1:23, the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way.... (though care should be taken not to equate everything with God; there is no evil in Him). Paul knew did not claim it was he and his disciples doing God's loving work but rather grace working in them.

        All of this is true and it is a shame that many only emphasize believing. For while we have to have believed Paul's Gospel to be among those who were saved by grace, one who is saved by grace and thus believes will, I think, also become humble and be willing to give God the credit for everything, including believing, rather than dogmatically insist on and emphasize their own role as primary. Because that is too close to saving oneself through a work one does, which we hopefully all agree is a false idea of salvation. There is believing, but there is also what comes before believing, and what comes after believing. I have certainly been a child of wrath and so proud and greedy, but through grace one can place their hope in Christ to be delivered from their body of sin if it be according to His will and they are not among those vessels of wrath He withdraws from.
        Do you believe that the children of wrath are the same as the vessels of wrath?
        "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
        preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
        called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
        a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

        Charles Spurgeon !

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

          Do you believe that the children of wrath are the same as the vessels of wrath?
          No, 'children of wrath' means something different from 'vessels of wrath.'

          Without God there is no goodness, and without His purpose and intervention everyone would remain children of wrath.
          Out of love God made some children of God. He always meant for them to be Vessels of Mercy.
          But the vessels of wrath, according to Romans 9, would seem to be something different and distinct from Vessels of Mercy, and not ever destined to be on the path of love and light and mercy. I don't have as systematic reason to explain why it should be so, and I m not sure Paul would have wanted us to try to develop a systematic explanation, but that seems to be a humble and faithful, if difficult, reading of Scripture.

          Comment


          • #20
            Thborn


            No, 'children of wrath' means something different from 'vessels of wrath.'
            Exactly. The elect are born children of wrath but vessels of Mercy!


            Without God there is no goodness, and without His purpose and intervention everyone would remain children of wrath.
            True

            Out of love God made some children of God. He always meant for them to be Vessels of Mercy
            True

            But the vessels of wrath, according to Romans 9, would seem to be something different and distinct from Vessels of Mercy, and not ever destined to be on the path of love and light and mercy


            Yes they are destined and always have been on the wide road for destruction.

            I don't have as systematic reason to explain why it should be so
            God's own Sovereign pleasure

            and I m not sure Paul would have wanted us to try to develop a systematic explanation, but that seems to be a humble and faithful, if difficult, reading of Scripture
            God has a Sovereign right to do what He wills with His own !
            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment

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