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Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
    The primary earmark of a "Christian" cult is the teachings of some man or woman at the center that has added to or taken away from scripture, changed sound doctrine, perverted doctrine. This is textbook cult, to separate one's self by private interpretations, contradictory interpretations and extra-Biblical so-called revelations, actually a clever marketing device of cults, as where else can you get their bent doctrines?
    This seems fine on the surface but what about the prophets railing against the idolatries and blasphemies of the Israelites who went after false gods and destroyed the true worship of YHWH? The Israelite definition of cult would fit the prophets of GOD. IF your church IS WRONG then the truth seems cultish.

    Even Christ was relegated to the status of cult by the powers that were. Cult means they don't think like I do; it does not prove that my thinking is correct.
    I Champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
      Scripture states what predestination is:

      Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

      Predestination is for the believer to be conformed to the image of Christ, what predestination means clearly stated. ...
      On the other hand, there is no scripture doctrine one is born damned or saved: this predestination a lie
      Because no one who is not conformed to the image of the Son can be or is saved from their sins, these two phrases have the same weight and refer to the same thing, our ultimate perfection in holiness as a perfect Bride of Christ. Sinners predestined to be conform to His image IS TO BE predestined to salvation.

      ImCo,
      this meaning is only twisted from all ordinary theology to fit a the Arminian pov that predestination has no reference to salvation because they falsely believe sinners have a free will because they cannot reconcile our being predestined to salvation BEFORE our creation and the absolute necessity of choosing to be HIS Bride by a free will and our supposed being created as evil in Adam. Solving the blasphemy that GOD creates us evil solves the need to twist the meaning of predestination.

      The logic of Calvinism, Arminianism and other orthodoxies force a twisted meaning upon the doctrines of election and predestination because they reject our self and other aware lives with a free will before the creation of the physical universe.
      I Champion GOD’s holiness:
      - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
      - All evil is creature-created.

      I Champion Our Free will:
      - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
        This seems fine on the surface but what about the prophets railing against the idolatries and blasphemies of the Israelites who went after false gods and destroyed the true worship of YHWH? The Israelite definition of cult would fit the prophets of GOD. IF your church IS WRONG then the truth seems cultish.

        Even Christ was relegated to the status of cult by the powers that were. Cult means they don't think like I do; it does not prove that my thinking is correct.
        So to identify the cult it would make sense to understand how they destroyed the true worship, right?

        Jeremiah 31 mentions how the old covenant was broken and a new one would be written in the hearts of the people. The old one was written on inanimate things like stone, hides, and paper.

        How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of YHWH is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
        Jeremiah 8:8

        Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
        Matthew 23:15

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

          Ummm, Calvin?
          Nope; a humanist lawyer who used scripture to prove his own ideas. He did not become a Calvinist by reading the Bible. His views were formulated into Calvinism after he interpreted scripture to fit his views.

          You will not find Calvinism by simply reading scripture with an open mind.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Poly View Post
            Calvinism says that God would rather go through all the trouble of creating those whom He has elected to first live a life of sin on Earth before they could be saved and be with Him. He could have just created them to be with Him from the beginning as He did the angels. If you deny that He has the ability to do this, then you deny that He has all power. If He were to do this rather than predestine them to sin, He would not have to send HIs son to die for them. So according to Calvinism, God would prefer to watch His son die a miserable death for an elect group that He predestined to live on Earth and sin rather than just create the elect to be with Him from the get go. Why would He go through having to watch His son be tortured and murdered when in His Sovereignty, He could just have just skipped all this devastation?
            The more you think this through, the Calvinist delusion gets more and more convoluted and impossible to believe. Notice, for example, that your question at the end presupposes that God would be emotionally effected by having to watch His Son be tortured and murdered. This idea would fall on deaf ears if those ears were attached to a consistent Calvinist because they don't just believe that God is Sovereign, which is what the thrust of your point is based upon, but also that God is impassible and therefore God cannot be emotionally effected by anything at all, including the torture and death of His only begotten Son. So, in the Calvinist's mind, there is no heart ache, no anger, no devastation. Calvary, the very Passion of Christ itself, is not an act of supreme love and affection performed by a God who's heart aches and yearns for His people, but is just one more action, one more unavoidably predestined event that occurs during the Vulcan like, emotional void that is God's life.

            Clete
            sigpic
            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

            Comment


            • #21


              Another consideration. If God can predestine evil to occur and it's considered righteous because He's the one who decreed it for His good pleasure, why could He not just consider our evil righteous as well? That way, Christ would not have to die for our unrighteousness.
              "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



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              • #22
                Originally posted by WonderfulLordJesus View Post
                Predestination is for the believer to be conformed to the image of Christ, what predestination means clearly stated. Was this plan in place, before creation? Yes, the Lord Jesus slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Does God know who WILL come to Him? I think so, as God, obviously, is omniscient, can see into the future, prophecy proves, Isaiah 46:10. The plan for redemption was in place, predestined.

                On the other hand, there is no scripture doctrine one is born damned or saved: this predestination a lie, contradicting some of the simplest, clear scripture. Everybody has the "job" to believe, or not, accept or reject the gospel. Calvinist predestination is one of the most monstrous, evil and perverse doctrines on the planet, making God a monster that damns babies, that makes a robotic man of no will, of no recourse, and, what, idiotically preaches to the hopelessly damned, that could not receive Christ, if they tried? Some very evil and stupid mad came up with that, did not find this in the Holy Bible! I don't know the words to state the absurdity of this, in light of the longsuffering God that contended with man, from the beginning, to choose right, a God that did what, spent thousands of years instructing men in obedience man is unable to attain to? I suppose there is a word for that idea, other than stupid: nuts.

                In any event, I have a challenge for you. If you can slowly read and think about the following verses, come back and again claim anybody is born damned of God, claim that people have no choices, that people are not instrumental in their salvation, by choosing or rejecting God, the Lord Jesus, I challenge you to read these verses and make such a claim that Calvinism appears true, ever again. Calvinist predestination is evil claptrap:
                I'm sorry, what I posted may have been a bit hasty, as I am not too familiar with what Calvinism actually is. I'm just grappling with the passage I'm alluded to, Romans 8:29-30. I'm disturbed, because I come from a free will background, but I know I've got to accept what God's Word truly says. I think the problem here is not unlike that in Hollywood time travel movies: if someone could go back and change the past, then you have time paradox. But if they could't change the past, then nobody has any free will. So how does one make sense of it all?

                Right now the only solution I can see is that as God created believers (Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. NIV), and foreknows believers, He knows what they would do if they had free will. Then God does something more: he predestines them to be conformed to Christ. Then he does something more: those people are then justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Does that mean they predestined to achieve salvation? Right now, I don't like it, but doesn't it have to, in some sense? Unless "justified" and "glorified" doesn't refer to final salvation, in which case "once saved always saved" would be untrue.

                Perhaps the best thing is not to get too dogmatic about it. I mean, for the average guy or gal, at least. Scripture doesn't tell everyone to get a degree in theology or quantum physics, it tells one to believe in Jesus and to live like one is dead to the world and to serve others in kindness.


                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Clete View Post

                  The more you think this through, the Calvinist delusion gets more and more convoluted and impossible to believe. Notice, for example, that your question at the end presupposes that God would be emotionally effected by having to watch His Son be tortured and murdered. This idea would fall on deaf ears if those ears were attached to a consistent Calvinist because they don't just believe that God is Sovereign, which is what the thrust of your point is based upon, but also that God is impassible and therefore God cannot be emotionally effected by anything at all, including the torture and death of His only begotten Son. So, in the Calvinist's mind, there is no heart ache, no anger, no devastation. Calvary, the very Passion of Christ itself, is not an act of supreme love and affection performed by a God who's heart aches and yearns for His people, but is just one more action, one more unavoidably predestined event that occurs during the Vulcan like, emotional void that is God's life.

                  Clete
                  Totally agree. I believe very much that God seeks a personal relationship with us. Throughout all of scripture God expresses emotion. I think also of Luke 15:7: I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. I'm no expert on Calvinsim...I'm guessing that there are different kinds of Calvinists, but I certainly do not agree with anyone who states that God predetermines everything with utter aloofness.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Clete View Post

                    That is an excellent post!

                    Calvinists and even those who don't call themselves "Calvinist" but believe Calvinist doctrine always seem to be ignorant of the scriptures as a whole. They read a single sentence or two here or there and decide that the entire bible should be understood through the lens of that one sentence and never consider that it aught to be the other way around.

                    The fact is, as you have shown so compellingly, that if Calvinistic predestination is true then the bible contradicts itself all over the place. What then is Paul talking about in Romans 8::29-30?

                    Well, without getting to much into details, the answer is simply that any time the bible talks about people being predestined, whether its Paul speaking or otherwise, it is talking in terms of groups, not specific individuals. So, with respect to Romans 8:29-30, Paul is speaking about the Body of Christ. God not only foreknew but predestined that there would be a Body of Christ and has also predestined that anyone found to be a member of it will be glorified. Indeed, anyone found to be a member of the Body of Christ HAS BEEN glorified because Christ has been glorified and we are in Him.
                    `
                    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
                    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
                    13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

                    II Thessalonians 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
                    I had thought of that before, fleetingly, that God might be referring to the group or groups as a whole. You make a good argument for it. I don't know the answer and will have to think and pray about it. Another piece of Scripture that I am struggling with is Romans 9:16: It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9: 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Romans 9:20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" This seems to me to be perhaps the other section of Scripture Calvinists would use to argue that God predestines people as individuals from beginning to end. Though, in the historical context, I guess Paul is most concerned about explaining how Gentiles could also be heirs.

                    On another note, this scripture clearly says that all are in need of mercy and grace. So, as others in this thread have already pointed out, anyone who actually says people are born good is wrong; Epheshians 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

                    How does grace and choosing Christ and predestination and sanctification all fit together? I'm not sure.



                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by thborn View Post

                      Totally agree. I believe very much that God seeks a personal relationship with us. Throughout all of scripture God expresses emotion. I think also of Luke 15:7: I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. I'm no expert on Calvinism...I'm guessing that there are different kinds of Calvinists, but I certainly do not agree with anyone who states that God predetermines everything with utter aloofness.
                      Indeed, there are "different kinds of Calvinists" but at bottom it's a matter of degree and consistency. The more squishy the Calvinist is on more controversial sounding doctrines, the more they depart from the foundational premises upon which the theology is constructed. Calvinists believe that God is immutable. And they aren't kidding. They believe that God cannot change in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER - period. Every single doctrine that is distinctively Calvinist is based on that singular premise. A premise that is falsified by even the simplest surface reading of scripture. And I don't refer to any obscure passage in the book of Nahum that no one knows anything about, I refer to the very gospel itself....

                      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                      14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

                      John 10: 17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

                      Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.


                      That's three of hundreds of verses that falsify that God is immutable in the way the Calvinists teach. Of course God does not change with respect to His personality and character. He is unchangeably personal, relational, wise, loving, righteous, just, etc. The Calvinists, however, take a page out of Aristotle's and Plato's philosophy and thereby sow the seeds for gross error and even blasphemy.
                      sigpic
                      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by thborn View Post
                        Right now the only solution I can see is that as God created believers (Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. NIV), and foreknows believers, He knows what they would do if they had free will. Then God does something more: he predestines them to be conformed to Christ.
                        This is no solution at all because if HE would do that for one, HE would do it for everyone without differentiation....no one would end in hell.

                        Calvinism claims that HE UNconditionally elects some but not others but have dropped the idea that by not electing the others HE is in fact choosing them (electing them) to hell...a logical extension of their idea that they reject because even they can see how blasphemous it is.

                        There is only one viable solution to all this and that is that our election and predestination to heaven as HIS Bride was HIS response to our putting our faith in HIM as our GOD and to accepting HIS marriage proposal by faith whereas those HE passed over for heaven were those who put their faith in HIS being a liar and a false god, forever becoming impossible to ever fulfill HIs purpose for their creation, ie, to be HIS bride.

                        Election and non-election were conditional, based upon the condition of where we would put our faith by our free will. We chose our FATES but then after we sinned, HE sent all sinners (both the reprobate and elect sinners) to live on earth, HE gave us predetermined LIVES to fulfill in them HIS promise of predestination to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and sanctification the best way possible for us.



                        I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                        - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                        - All evil is creature-created.

                        I Champion Our Free will:
                        - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by thborn View Post
                          ... I certainly do not agree with anyone who states that God predetermines everything with utter aloofness.
                          If HE predetermined everything in accord with the choices of HIS creation ie, according to their hopes and dreams then where is the blasphemy of utter aloofness? Isn't that a perfect mesh of free will and predestination for those who later lost their free will when they chose to rebel against HIM and became enslaved by evil's addicting power?
                          I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                          - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                          - All evil is creature-created.

                          I Champion Our Free will:
                          - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by thborn View Post
                            How does grace and choosing Christ and predestination and sanctification all fit together? I'm not sure.
                            ImCo:

                            The story of election and the fall:
                            1. GOD created everyone in HIS image at the same time before the creation of the physical universe. HE created us with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by our free will to put our faith in HIM as our GOD or reject HIM as a liar and a false god.

                            2. GOD then proclaimed to us HIS claims to be our creator GOD and called us to join HIM in a heavenly marriage by putting our faith in HIM as our GOD. HE proclaimed the gospel of salvation to us about the natural and legal consequences of sin, specifically the sin of rejecting HIM as GOD or HIS purpose for us, and that salvation from sin was found only in the Son: Col 1:23 in which under heaven refers to all of creation.

                            3. As an expression of HIS love and to encourage us to accept HIS purpose for us to be HIS bride, HE promised that if we put our faith in HIM, HE would elect us, ie, choose us to be HIS bride and also would predestine us to fulfill our faith even if we should ever sin and lose our faith. Those who rejected HIM as their GOD and put their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god would be passed over for election, not chosen to be HIS bride and not predestined to fulfill HIS purpose for them if they should sin this unforgivable sin as eternally unfit to ever fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, but liable to judgement.

                            The story of the fall, judgement and sanctification:
                            4. So everyone created in HIS name committed their faith to HIM, becoming elect, or against HIM, becoming eternally evil and condemned on the spot.

                            5. The next order of business in accord with HIS great hatred to evil was to call all HIS elect to come out from among the reprobate non-elect so they could be judged. But some elect would not. They rebelled against damnation as being too unloving for a GOD who was love, for being too impulsive without giving the non-elect time to repent etc and anyway, they loved some of those to be damned and idolized them above GOD. Thus the elect were split into two, those who never sinned and those who became enslaved to evil but still under HIS promise of salvation.

                            6. To facilitate HIS plans for the redemption of the sinful elect HE next created the physical universe which all the sons of GOD saw and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? This explains the meaning of Rom 1:20 that none have an excuse: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Consider: in which is HIS divinity and power more clearly seen, a study of what was made or watching HIM actually make the whole universe before your eyes!!! Which renders you totally without excuse ? especially when the study of nature has most of the pagan world believe they themselves are godly.

                            The sins of the elect made them liable to judgement with the reprobate so HE postponed the judgement upon the Satanic and made the sinful elect live together with the Satanic here on earth until they could have their eyes opened to their need for a saviour and to the eternal nature of the evil of their non-elect loved ones. This bit is found in the two part story of the tares, Matt 13, especially verses 27The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?' [bring judgement upon them?]
                            29‘NO,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest....which states that the reason Satan and his demonic angels were NOT judged on the spot is because of the sinfulness of some of HIS elect!

                            This parable also reinforces the fact that we are sent here as sinners and not created here as sinners in verses: 36Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

                            37He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. It might seem strange that the devil can move people around but for sure it does not say he can create them so to sow cannot mean to create for either the Son of Man or the devil. EXPLAIN cannot mean, tell us another hyperbolic metaphor so His answer is the plain truth no matter how weird it sounds and explains our transition from the spirit world, Sheol, to the world of mankind.

                            7. Thus the time of elect here on earth is a time of GOD's grace through a growing faith and repentance unto redemption and sanctification to fulfill HIS predestination of them to be HIS heavenly bride in accord with their free will faith before they chose to sin and lost it all. When the last sinful elect person repents fully and becomes fully sanctified, ie, heaven ready then, only then, that great and terrible day of our LORD will proceed.

                            I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                            - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                            - All evil is creature-created.

                            I Champion Our Free will:
                            - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The answer to Poly’s question is:

                              Hebrews 2:9-14

                              All confessing Christianity should read John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Jesus Christ” in order to appreciate the doctrine of Predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God Almighty.
                              "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                              " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                              Gordon H. Clark

                              "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                              Charles Spurgeon

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Nang View Post
                                The answer to Poly’s question is:

                                Hebrews 2:9-14

                                All confessing Christianity should read John Owen’s “The Death of Death in the Death of Jesus Christ” in order to appreciate the doctrine of Predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God Almighty.
                                Define "God's absolute sovereignty" for us, please.

                                Was God eternally sovereign?

                                When did He predestine things?

                                Comment

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