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  • #31
    Originally posted by Choleric View Post
    Did I say any of what you just said? Pentecostals are wrong because they ( generally) teach you have to be good enough to earn or keep salvation. That is error. We may disagree about the role of the Holy Spirit, but you aren't goin to go to hell over it. The list is for basic Christianity, not what born again Chriatians argue over.

    If you think salvation has to be earned, or that Paul was a heretic, or that Jesus is not God, you are likely lost.
    Yeah..i totally agree with you there. No...I'm SAVED EVERLASTINGLY...BY THE EVERLASTING GRACE OF THE ETERNAL GOD...THE FATHER~CHRIST JESUS THE SON~&~HIS HOLY SPIRIT...THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER,AND OF THE SON. AMEN!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
      Why were you so upset in the other thread that you weren't on it then?
      I was being facetious.
      > TheologyOnline's resident Agnostic Pantheist and self-proclaimed Science Advocate. Defeating pseudoscience at locations near you.


      "I am but a student to all religions and an adherent of none."

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Choleric View Post
        Why so? We are instructed in Scripture to mark heretics. How would you fulfill that commandment on a forum?
        Except in this case Heretics = those with differing opinions. You're just not honest enough to admit it.
        > TheologyOnline's resident Agnostic Pantheist and self-proclaimed Science Advocate. Defeating pseudoscience at locations near you.


        "I am but a student to all religions and an adherent of none."

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Choleric View Post
          It is not a list based on my theological way of thinking. If it was Calvinists and Pentecostals and open theists would be on the list. This list is based on basic Christianity. This is basic, first Sunday school class lesson type stuff. The idea that you can't understand the difference is quite puzzling for someone with "brain" in their name.
          Except your 'basic, first Sunday school class lesson' is at odds with others. Heck, I don't recall this at me own those years back. If you're going to call people 'heretics' simply for not having this apparent 'basic' understanding of 'proper faith' then it's puzzling in turn why you'd dedicate a thread to the topic.

          It was implied. You are calling me divisive and such like. Or are you saying I'm a wonderfully nice and caring person for being divisive?
          All your previous thread did was invite objection and dischord. Grief, if you've got SD as an 'ally' then you really should look at things. She wouldn't know 'truth' from a stock car pile up. Look at her sig for crying out loud. Do you even consider what it must appear like for observers looking in to see supposed Christians bickering away over stuff?

          Of course there is real eternal hell. This is in the bible. Jesus said to fear him who had the power to throw both body and soul into hell and in revelation we read "the smoke of their torment went up day and night forever" and they "have no rest". People still exist who have no rest, not non-existent people. Of course, you could all God a liar.
          Um, why do you suppose I asked you about your knowledge of the early church in regards to this subject? What do you actually know about the original texts and translations? Why was eternal torment a minority school of thought at the time? Have you ever researched the topic to any degree? Unless you have you're in no position to say 'of course there is'. Perhaps you can explain how death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire as well?

          But I would not claim you will go to hell for not believing in hell. I would say it explains a lot about your beliefs and about your view of God that you don't believe the bible. It explains why you and I are having this conversation.
          It would only explain why I don't believe in a cruel and capricious God choleric. The fact that you may equate that with 'not believing the bible' only goes to serve what you know or don't know about the above....

          You would have no idea what the gospel was without Paul's letters, particularly Romans and Galatians. That is a fact. The reason people reject Paul's apostleship is for that very reason, as the salvation by grace without works is clearly taught by Paul and those who reject him would rather work for their salvation. To reject Paul is to reject free salvation without works. Just ask anyone on the list.
          So....if someone were to read the bible sans Paul it would be effectively useless?

          Well pray tell, tell us all what the gospel is then. Or are you afraid to stand for what you believe in? Do you believe anything enough to trouble yourself with telling someone, or is truth more "fluid" than that?
          As far as I recall the gospel = 'good news'. Or is that too basic?

          I believe what God says. It is appointed into man once to die and then face judgement. Life is not a negotiation, there are real consequences to whether or not a person is Born Again. Eternity is a long time to be wrong. People that teach the things those on the list teach are in danger of eternal torment and the people that believe that heresy are in the same danger.
          It's quite bemusing that Paul himself never once makes mention of 'hell' then isn't it, considering what you believe it to be? What, wasn't it important enough or something?

          This is not a game.
          Well it wouldn't catch on if it was....

          I don't "have" any truth. I simple repeat what I read. I believe what I read, and respond. That is what people do when they believe something, they tell others.
          So telling everyone else that if they don't believe the 'basics' as yourself they're wrong is simply 'repeating what you've read is it'?

          I would love to have a civilized debate on eternal hell. I and yes, I am obsessed with truth and people getting saved. Paul warned against heresy because it was "another gospel" that would lead people astray. It is not the time to play nice.
          As before, Paul never mentioned 'hell' the once in his ministry, so why was that considering the magnitude of such according to you?

          That is pretty obvious. Paul must have been having a bad day.


          So you are so opposed that you keep silent? Great plan.
          Er, nope. I'm just opposed to using inflammatory insults and dialogue as conversation - unless I'm dealing with an obvious troll. Anything wrong with that?


          Sudoku? You are a heretic!
          Yeah, ok, I'll give you that one....
          Well this is fun isn't it?

          Comment


          • #35
            Choleric, you still got me down in the saved by works crowds eh?
            I'm calling you a Liar. Just like your father the devil is.
            I told you time and time again, I am saved by the BLOOD OF THE MESSIAH YAHU'SHUA.
            So, as Scripture says, even though you accuse me of heresy, I stand as righteous, BY HIS BLOOD. I always have.

            And now, what you thought to do to me, will be done to you.

            Also, I won't call you a heretic, I will simply say to you what JESUS SAID...

            Luk 24:25-27 And He said to them, “O thoughtless ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Messiah to suffer these and to enter into His esteem?” And beginning at Mosheh and all the Prophets, He was explaining to them in all the Scriptures the matters concerning Himself.

            So stop LYING to the people, the Gospel IS in the Old Testament...And JESUS didn't need Paul to do a thing!!!
            YeshaYahu (Isaiah) 8:20: To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak.

            1st Kepha (Peter) 4:11: If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע (Yahu'Shua) Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by g_n_o_s_i_s View Post
              Heresy is just a big stick used to beat up people you disagree with.
              right... always

              whatever you say

              u r god, no doubt
              "Whatever you do to God's people, you do to God" - Mt 25:31

              Comment


              • #37
                heresy = the right to freely choose.......

                Originally posted by g_n_o_s_i_s View Post
                I'm still not on it.

                A while back I messaged Choleric about adding you under my catagory, and even modifying the catagory title, expanding it a bit, since I'm very 'eclectic',...but no response.

                It appears hes more interested in the main 'heresies' he deems most important, while we more liberal spiritualists and gnostics of various temperments, and kind of 'low' on the radar screen. I have just enough dangerous knowledge to implicate modern forms of 'Christianity' with a versatility in many other religious philosophies and schools to have apparently earned a place on the list.

                To some I'm the resident 'New Ager', 'Universal Mystic'...being a student of universal spirituality, eclectic spiritualist, meta-theist, esotericist, meta-physician, etc. Also the resident 'dharmist' as a very liberal 'hindu' with philosophical roots in the Advaita Vedanta school...but conversant with all schools of 'non-dualism'. The fundamental reality is what is at the base or root of all existence, discovered and realized by the great rishis/sages (realized ones). They discovered the true God-essence in their own hearts...as being non-different from the Universal God-presence, but individualized within.

                'God' as absolute reality outshines/transcends any concept or image of a so-called 'Satan' or the 'devil', and 'heresy' is the rightful privilege of a truly responsible person freely choosing to do their own 'thinking' in discerning what is 'real' from what is 'unreal' (right discrimination). This continual vigilence and 'questioning' everything...continues moment to moment.

                In-joy,


                pj


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Daedalean's_Sun View Post
                  Except in this case Heretics = those with differing opinions. You're just not honest enough to admit it.
                  In the biblical sense of the word, it is those that Paul warned teach "another gospel". If you agree with the theology of those on the list, you do just that. So, yes...it is differing opinion.
                  Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Choleric View Post
                    In the biblical sense of the word, it is those that Paul warned teach "another gospel". If you agree with the theology of those on the list, you do just that. So, yes...it is differing opinion.
                    Much of what you believe is interpretation. You have no guarantee what you teach isn't "another gospel".
                    > TheologyOnline's resident Agnostic Pantheist and self-proclaimed Science Advocate. Defeating pseudoscience at locations near you.


                    "I am but a student to all religions and an adherent of none."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
                      Except your 'basic, first Sunday school class lesson' is at odds with others. Heck, I don't recall this at me own those years back. If you're going to call people 'heretics' simply for not having this apparent 'basic' understanding of 'proper faith' then it's puzzling in turn why you'd dedicate a thread to the topic.
                      Yes, the bible is at odds with many, that is why they are called heretics. I dedicate a thread to it as to warn others by "marking" those who teach error. I wish I would have had this list when I first joined this forum. I didn't know there were so many heresies in the world. I had quite a few long, frustrating conversations with people, only to learn days later that they were teaching false doctrine. Had I had this list, I would have been able to avoid that.

                      All your previous thread did was invite objection and dischord. Grief, if you've got SD as an 'ally' then you really should look at things. She wouldn't know 'truth' from a stock car pile up. Look at her sig for crying out loud. Do you even consider what it must appear like for observers looking in to see supposed Christians bickering away over stuff?
                      It is not intended to invite any dischord, it is intended to mark heretics as a warning to others who may be harmed by their false teaching.

                      SD stands for truth, which is not pliable and is easily discernible by reading and believing the bible, which the Laodecian church has great trouble with.


                      Um, why do you suppose I asked you about your knowledge of the early church in regards to this subject? What do you actually know about the original texts and translations?
                      This statement is a direct result of the apostasy of the modern church. All truth is based on your "interpretation" of some extra biblical writing and some extant manuscript that you think is the way the bible "should" be worded.

                      I know quite a bit about the early manuscripts, having studied the topic a great deal. I know that the KJV agrees with 99% of existing manuscript evidence. I don't need to worry about the 1%, although many new bibles today are translated based on that 1% and are therefore, in the minority and are in error.

                      Why was eternal torment a minority school of thought at the time? Have you ever researched the topic to any degree? Unless you have you're in no position to say 'of course there is'.
                      Why in the world would I waste my time researching schools of thought on the matter? Why would I have reason to doubt what the bible says? I understand the temptation to do so, as I don't particularly like what I read there either, and I wish it wasn't so. But I am not going to go fishing for some "alternate meaning" to something so plainly taught just because I find it uncomfortable.

                      THat is what most people do. They find something they don't like in the bible, then find an excuse to erase that passage from their bible, or at least change the words a bit to say what they think it ought to say. Nobody benefits from that and it leads to heresy and eventually apostasy, which is what we have in the modern church.

                      Perhaps you can explain how death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire as well?
                      Sure thing. When a lost person dies, they go to hell, which is a prison, or holding ground for those who die without Christ. At the end of the millenium, the dead in hell will be resurrected in bodily form and will stand before the great white throne of God for judgment. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point and eventually hell itself, which is a giant prison in the center of the earth, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

                      The lake of fire is not in hell, and is not the same as hell. This is pretty simple stuff. Allow me to give it to you in chronological order using Scripture:



                      All people are appointed to a day of judgement:
                      Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

                      The church will be raptured out prior to the Great Tribulation/ The church is told it will be kept from the "hour that is to come":

                      1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                      1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

                      Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


                      Then there will be the great tribulation, which will last 7 years. At the end of that, those tribulation saints will be raptured/resurrected:

                      Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                      Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



                      The millenium begins, and the devil is bound in the bottomless pit (not the lake of fire) for the whole thousand years and at the end is released one last time:

                      Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
                      Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:


                      The unsaved dead, remain in hell for the full thousand years of the millenium:

                      Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

                      After the thousand years, the devil is loosed and the final war takes place:

                      Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
                      Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


                      It is at this point that the devil is cast into the lake of fire:


                      Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

                      notice the "beast and false prophet" are already there. They were cast into the lake of fire after the 7 year tribulation as we see in this verse:

                      Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

                      At this point the rest of the dead are raised to stand before God and be judged "according to their works", which is how all unsaved people will be judged:

                      Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                      Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                      Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


                      These are all found to be guilty of being law breakers and are sentenced to the lake of fire, and at this point, hell is empty and it too is cast into the lake of fire with death:


                      Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                      Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


                      If you notice the order of events, the lake of fire appears at the end of God's prophetic program, not at the beginning or middle. This is easy if we simply believe what we read.



                      It would only explain why I don't believe in a cruel and capricious God choleric. The fact that you may equate that with 'not believing the bible' only goes to serve what you know or don't know about the above....
                      Why would I replace God's word with my opinion or fanciful imagination? That is foolish and only an arrogant person would attempt such a thing.

                      So....if someone were to read the bible sans Paul it would be effectively useless?
                      No, but you would be like those who reject Paul...you would be attempting to get to heaven by being "good enough" instead of obeying Romans 10:3.

                      As far as I recall the gospel = 'good news'. Or is that too basic?
                      Far too basic. What is the good news? Is it that a man named Jesus came to earth to tell you about God (which is what those who deny the deity of Christ teach). Is it to tell you that you can work for your own salvation? (which is what those that teach salvation by works teach and is what those that reject Paul teach).

                      You have to allow the Scripture to define what the good news is.

                      It's quite bemusing that Paul himself never once makes mention of 'hell' then isn't it, considering what you believe it to be? What, wasn't it important enough or something?
                      He did.

                      2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
                      2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

                      Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


                      Aside from that, Jesus mentioned hell quite plainly and thoroughly. You can only deny hell if you deny a large portion of your bible:

                      Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

                      I could list dozens of verses where Jesus spoke of hell. This is pretty simple stuff. And attempting to explain it away by claiming somebody didn't believe Jesus' words 1900 years ago doesn't change anything at all. People haven't believed the bible for 4000 years, there is nothing new under the sun.
                      Well it wouldn't catch on if it was....
                      By God's eternal wisdom, His message has caught on quite well I would say.

                      So telling everyone else that if they don't believe the 'basics' as yourself they're wrong is simply 'repeating what you've read is it'?
                      Yes, "ye are saved by grace though faith and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any man should boast" is pretty easy to understand and repeat. As is "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. " Rom 11:6

                      You either believe it and get saved, or deny Pauls apostleship and get to work. But that will end you in the lake of fire.

                      As before, Paul never mentioned 'hell' the once in his ministry, so why was that considering the magnitude of such according to you?
                      Paul did and so did the Creator of the Universe and our Savior Jesus Christ. I am not sure what point you are trying to make?

                      You said you werent interested in marking others. You are essentially admitting to refusing to obey a command of Scripture. I guess you excuse yourself from such activity on the account that "Paul must have been having a bad day". It is ok if you don't feel it is your calling, but don't argue with those of us who obey.

                      Er, nope. I'm just opposed to using inflammatory insults and dialogue as conversation - unless I'm dealing with an obvious troll. Anything wrong with that?
                      Again, if you want to stand for nothing, that is fine with me, but don't take issue because I obey a direct command in an attempt to help others. Hell is a real place where real people go for a real eternity. Jesus said so, you can choose to ignore Him, but it isn't very wise...

                      Yeah, ok, I'll give you that one....
                      Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Daedalean's_Sun View Post
                        Much of what you believe is interpretation. You have no guarantee what you teach isn't "another gospel".
                        Sure I do, I have the bible that clearly teaches that Jesus is God, that Paul's apostleship was genuine and that salvation is a free gift.

                        Please pick one if you would like clarification from Scripture.
                        Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by retard77 View Post
                          Great. The reintroduction of the ego driven pompous "anyone who doesn't agree with my theology" is a heretic bunk...

                          Yet you needed to comment on it.
                          Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                          Titus 1

                          For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                          Ephesians 5

                          11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Choleric View Post
                            Yes, the bible is at odds with many, that is why they are called heretics. I dedicate a thread to it as to warn others by "marking" those who teach error. I wish I would have had this list when I first joined this forum. I didn't know there were so many heresies in the world. I had quite a few long, frustrating conversations with people, only to learn days later that they were teaching false doctrine. Had I had this list, I would have been able to avoid that.
                            Which again, is just a convoluted way of saying that anyone who doesn't believe in your interpretation of the bible(s) is a heretic.

                            It is not intended to invite any dischord, it is intended to mark heretics as a warning to others who may be harmed by their false teaching.
                            Which again = the above.

                            SD stands for truth, which is not pliable and is easily discernible by reading and believing the bible, which the Laodecian church has great trouble with.


                            You have got to be kidding?! Have you seen her sig for cryin' out loud? She blatantly lies about people in it and is generally regarded here as off the planet from all 'sides'. She consistently delects away from answering direct questions, supports 'burning prostitutes alive' and generally acts like a completel troll. She stands for 'truth' in the same way the KKK stand for racial equality. Get a grip...

                            This statement is a direct result of the apostasy of the modern church. All truth is based on your "interpretation" of some extra biblical writing and some extant manuscript that you think is the way the bible "should" be worded.
                            Eh? I'm asking you what you know about the original translations not some extra biblical texts....

                            I know quite a bit about the early manuscripts, having studied the topic a great deal. I know that the KJV agrees with 99% of existing manuscript evidence. I don't need to worry about the 1%, although many new bibles today are translated based on that 1% and are therefore, in the minority and are in error.
                            Where are you getting this notion that the KJV is the most 'inerrant' form of the bible exactly? Cite? Why is that any more accurate than a literal concordance such as 'Young's'?

                            Why in the world would I waste my time researching schools of thought on the matter? Why would I have reason to doubt what the bible says? I understand the temptation to do so, as I don't particularly like what I read there either, and I wish it wasn't so. But I am not going to go fishing for some "alternate meaning" to something so plainly taught just because I find it uncomfortable.
                            Uh, these were the original translators of the original texts which inform the bible, and 'eternal torment' was very much the minority viewpoint. If you can't be bothered to do proper research into the matter of how such doctrines came about then you're in no position to offer any criticism of such frankly.

                            THat is what most people do. They find something they don't like in the bible, then find an excuse to erase that passage from their bible, or at least change the words a bit to say what they think it ought to say. Nobody benefits from that and it leads to heresy and eventually apostasy, which is what we have in the modern church.
                            As ^

                            Sure thing. When a lost person dies, they go to hell, which is a prison, or holding ground for those who die without Christ. At the end of the millenium, the dead in hell will be resurrected in bodily form and will stand before the great white throne of God for judgment. Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at that point and eventually hell itself, which is a giant prison in the center of the earth, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
                            Where are you getting this concept that hell is in the centre of the earth?! Cite?

                            The lake of fire is not in hell, and is not the same as hell. This is pretty simple stuff. Allow me to give it to you in chronological order using Scripture:
                            Considering I never said they were the same or that the lake of fire was somehow in hell I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up....



                            All people are appointed to a day of judgement:
                            Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

                            The church will be raptured out prior to the Great Tribulation/ The church is told it will be kept from the "hour that is to come":

                            1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                            1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

                            Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


                            Then there will be the great tribulation, which will last 7 years. At the end of that, those tribulation saints will be raptured/resurrected:

                            Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
                            Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



                            The millenium begins, and the devil is bound in the bottomless pit (not the lake of fire) for the whole thousand years and at the end is released one last time:

                            Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
                            Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled:


                            The unsaved dead, remain in hell for the full thousand years of the millenium:

                            Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

                            After the thousand years, the devil is loosed and the final war takes place:

                            Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
                            Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


                            It is at this point that the devil is cast into the lake of fire:


                            Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

                            notice the "beast and false prophet" are already there. They were cast into the lake of fire after the 7 year tribulation as we see in this verse:

                            Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

                            At this point the rest of the dead are raised to stand before God and be judged "according to their works", which is how all unsaved people will be judged:

                            Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
                            Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
                            Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


                            These are all found to be guilty of being law breakers and are sentenced to the lake of fire, and at this point, hell is empty and it too is cast into the lake of fire with death:


                            Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                            Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


                            If you notice the order of events, the lake of fire appears at the end of God's prophetic program, not at the beginning or middle. This is easy if we simply believe what we read.
                            'Simply believe what we read'? So I guess you find nothing allegorical about any of the above then?

                            Why would I replace God's word with my opinion or fanciful imagination? That is foolish and only an arrogant person would attempt such a thing.
                            Almost as arrogant as claiming those who ascribe to a different belief to your own are being 'arrogant and fanciful'....

                            No, but you would be like those who reject Paul...you would be attempting to get to heaven by being "good enough" instead of obeying Romans 10:3.
                            That's garbage. My former church didn't place such emphasis on Paul and it didn't teach you had to be 'good enough' via works or some such either.

                            Far too basic. What is the good news? Is it that a man named Jesus came to earth to tell you about God (which is what those who deny the deity of Christ teach). Is it to tell you that you can work for your own salvation? (which is what those that teach salvation by works teach and is what those that reject Paul teach).
                            Funny how you don't like complication where it comes to proper research and understanding and yet 'good news' is something altogether different.

                            You have to allow the Scripture to define what the good news is.
                            Well in your case it pretty amounts to 'you're all hellbound but the good news is there's a way out'.

                            He did.

                            2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
                            2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

                            Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


                            Aside from that, Jesus mentioned hell quite plainly and thoroughly. You can only deny hell if you deny a large portion of your bible:

                            Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

                            I could list dozens of verses where Jesus spoke of hell. This is pretty simple stuff. And attempting to explain it away by claiming somebody didn't believe Jesus' words 1900 years ago doesn't change anything at all. People haven't believed the bible for 4000 years, there is nothing new under the sun.
                            Again, if you've not researched the original texts and translations regarding 'hell' and 'eternal' in any objective manner etc then you're just not interested in intellectual honesty on the matter. You are familiar with hades, sheol, gehenna, tartarus right? And as before, Paul does not make make express mention of 'hell' in his own words anywhere.

                            By God's eternal wisdom, His message has caught on quite well I would say.
                            Ok....

                            Yes, "ye are saved by grace though faith and that not of yourselves, not of works lest any man should boast" is pretty easy to understand and repeat. As is "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. " Rom 11:6

                            You either believe it and get saved, or deny Pauls apostleship and get to work. But that will end you in the lake of fire.
                            Not sure where even this consigns someone to your eternal torment. If altruistic works send folk to it then aye, that makes sense.... I reckon an omnipotent loving God would take the failities of His human creations into account.

                            Paul did and so did the Creator of the Universe and our Savior Jesus Christ. I am not sure what point you are trying to make?
                            Um, nope, and my points have been reiterated earlier. If you consider hell to be some 'prison cell' in the centre of the earth and lake of fire to be a literal burning lake then in regards to the former: and in regards to the latter you're obviously not very familiar with allegory....


                            You said you werent interested in marking others. You are essentially admitting to refusing to obey a command of Scripture. I guess you excuse yourself from such activity on the account that "Paul must have been having a bad day". It is ok if you don't feel it is your calling, but don't argue with those of us who obey.
                            Eh, if it was Jim Jones or David Koresh I'd have no problem with calling them on out on their insanity. Compiling a list of people who have differing takes on theology on an internet forum? Aye, soooooo effective. You just do more damage to anyone looking in so well done....

                            Again, if you want to stand for nothing, that is fine with me, but don't take issue because I obey a direct command in an attempt to help others. Hell is a real place where real people go for a real eternity. Jesus said so, you can choose to ignore Him, but it isn't very wise...
                            I stand for plenty thanks, and what I ignore is blinkered fundamentalist doctrine. Ironically you're even going against yourself if you think 'the holding cell in the centre of the earth' lasts for ever....

                            You can't same the same about Scrabble though....
                            Well this is fun isn't it?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Nick M View Post
                              Yet you needed to comment on it.
                              Apparently in the same way you apparently 'needed' to comment on my own post.

                              Irony isn't in your vocab is it Nick?

                              Well this is fun isn't it?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
                                Which again, is just a convoluted way of saying that anyone who doesn't believe in your interpretation of the bible(s) is a heretic.
                                Not convoluted at all. Just pretty straightforward. If you disagree with me on the three specific topics the list covers, then you are a heretic. That is easily defended by Scripture. Unless you want to tell me you don't think Jesus is God. Or that you have to earn heaven, or that Paul's 13 letters don't belong in the bible. Of course, you can't prove any of those things using the bible. It is impossible.

                                Which again = the above.
                                Fair enough and guilty as charged...

                                Eh? I'm asking you what you know about the original translations not some extra biblical texts....
                                What about them? Are you going to produce a bible translation that eliminates all mention of hell? What are you attempting to say? Just cough it up already...

                                Where are you getting this notion that the KJV is the most 'inerrant' form of the bible exactly? Cite? Why is that any more accurate than a literal concordance such as 'Young's'?
                                Let's not derail the topic at hand, but suffice it to say I believe the KJV is superior to any bible on earth.

                                But that being said, you cannot produce a single bible translation in any language that eliminates hell.

                                Uh, these were the original translators of the original texts which inform the bible, and 'eternal torment' was very much the minority viewpoint. If you can't be bothered to do proper research into the matter of how such doctrines came about then you're in no position to offer any criticism of such frankly.
                                Again, why would I care what viewpoint some old person held? I am perfectly capable, and personally responsible, for reading and understanding the bible for myself. And in doing so, it is abundantly clear that hell is real, as is the lake of fire and real people go there for all eternity if they are not saved.

                                As ^
                                What is that supposed to mean. I show you clear scripture that speak of hell and eternal torment and you are attempting to do away with it on conjecture and "old people's opinions". Why not use the bible and tell me Jesus was lying or that He misspoke or that eternal doesn't mean eternal. Good luck with that
                                Where are you getting this concept that hell is in the centre of the earth?! Cite?
                                Have you ever read the bible? I could fill pages. Allow me to cite some passages and give a brief explanation:

                                Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.


                                Hell is down

                                Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

                                Hell is down. Notice the juxtaposition against "exalted to heaven". The opposite of up, is down, up to heaven, down to hell

                                Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                                Jesus went to paradise, in the heart of the earth after He died. The heart is the center

                                Isaiah 5:14
                                “Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”


                                Hell is a place people descend into. It is also interesting to note that scientist have noted that the cavity in the center of the earth is expanding, as this passage tells us Hell has enlarged herself. Standing room only I guess...

                                Ezekiel 31:16
                                “I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…”


                                Again descend

                                Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”

                                Need commentary on this one? Under the earth there is fire and that fire is hell.


                                (Proverb 7:27) "Her house is the way to hell (Sheol), going down to the chambers of death."

                                (Isaiah 14:15) "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (Sheol), to the sides of the pit."

                                (Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."


                                all talking about downward

                                Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the Pit cannot hope for thy truth.

                                Isa_14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


                                Notice it is down to hell, also called a pit:

                                Eze_31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

                                Eze_26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;


                                The pit is hell, it is down, it is in the lower parts of the earth, it is in the nether parts of the earth. I could go on and on and on and on. This is very simple if you believe what you read.
                                Considering I never said they were the same or that the lake of fire was somehow in hell I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up....
                                It appeared you were attempting to prove hell was allegorical by implying the impossibility of hell being thrown into itself. Realizing hell and the lake of fire are in different places clears up the matter. Why else did you ask me to explain it?

                                'Simply believe what we read'? So I guess you find nothing allegorical about any of the above then?
                                None whatsoever. I take the bible literally unless it is absolutely impossible to do so. Allegory is vastly over used when reading Scripture, it is far more literal than you realize. Allow me to post a couple verses that beat scientific discovery based on the literal application of seemingly innocuous passages:

                                Jet Streams: The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

                                Ecc 1:6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.


                                The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

                                Job 28:25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

                                The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago.

                                Hydrothermal vents were described in Job long before science ever found them out.

                                Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

                                The fact that the earth is round was shown in Isaiah:

                                Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

                                There is far more, but this will suffice. The point is the bible is literal almost all of the time and I suggest even more so than the most conservative of us believe.

                                Almost as arrogant as claiming those who ascribe to a different belief to your own are being 'arrogant and fanciful'....
                                No, to set aside what the bible clearly says in favor of something outside of the bible is arrogant. Jesus said to fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell. It is very, very arrogant to think you know better than Jesus.


                                That's garbage. My former church didn't place such emphasis on Paul and it didn't teach you had to be 'good enough' via works or some such either.
                                Your church may not have emphasised, but they did not exclude Romans through Philemon. Those who think Paul is a heretic, believe that Romans through Philemon should not be in the bible. Don't you understand that? That is a serious accusation.

                                Funny how you don't like complication where it comes to proper research and understanding and yet 'good news' is something altogether different.
                                Nope, 100% consistent. I rely 100% on the bible. I don't put my bible down and pick up some old dudes writing and then give that equal weight to the Scripture. If Polycarp thought hell was allegorical, he as dead wrong. It doesn't matter if he lived 1900 years ago.

                                There is no complication there. Hell is real because the bible says so. Jesus is God because the bible says so. Paul was not a heretic because the bible says so. Salvation is a free gift without works because the bible says so. This is very easy.
                                Well in your case it pretty amounts to 'you're all hellbound but the good news is there's a way out'.
                                Exactly!!

                                Gal_3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


                                Again, if you've not researched the original texts and translations regarding 'hell' and 'eternal' in any objective manner etc then you're just not interested in intellectual honesty on the matter. You are familiar with hades, sheol, gehenna, tartarus right? And as before, Paul does not make make express mention of 'hell' in his own words anywhere.
                                I don't need to do research. Please, pick a topic. Tell me sheol doesn't mean hell, tell me eternal doesn't mean eternal. Please, I am begging you to try to prove either of those with Scripture. You keep hinting around like you have it all figured out, then tell me about it. Stop acting like you "got this" and lay it out there for me.

                                Not sure where even this consigns someone to your eternal torment. If altruistic works send folk to it then aye, that makes sense.... I reckon an omnipotent loving God would take the failities of His human creations into account.
                                THis doesn 't consign someone to torment, it tells you how to avoid it. And good works can't help you, which is also taught clearly in the bible:

                                Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

                                God saves us based on His free gift of imputed righteousness. It is not based on our attempts at earning it or establishing our own goodness whereby we get to a point where we are good enough to be saved.

                                Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

                                Many people are ignorant of God's righteousness that He will give (impute) to anyone who comes to Him in faith through His Son. Instead, they try to go around establishing their own righteousness by being good and don't submit themselves to God's righteousness.

                                Um, nope, and my points have been reiterated earlier. If you consider hell to be some 'prison cell' in the centre of the earth and lake of fire to be a literal burning lake then in regards to the former: and in regards to the latter you're obviously not very familiar with allegory....
                                You have made points but with no substance. You have hinted at "translations" and "study of the terms" but you haven't produced any of it. Scripture clearly demonstrates that people who are lost die and go to hell which is at the center of the earth where they await judgment which all men face according to Heb 9:27. Scripture also clearly teaches that at the end of the millennium the second resurrection occurs and all those stand before God to be judged by their works and are cast into a lake of fire for all eternity.

                                There is no allegory there. The bible is full of this teaching from beginning to end. You would have to eliminate quite a bit of your bible to believe such a lie. And make no mistake, it is a lie from the father of lies..."hath God said?" It is the oldest lie in the book, LITERALLY.

                                Eh, if it was Jim Jones or David Koresh I'd have no problem with calling them on out on their insanity. Compiling a list of people who have differing takes on theology on an internet forum? Aye, soooooo effective. You just do more damage to anyone looking in so well done....
                                I remember when I first came here in 2007, my first lengthy conversation was with GLENDA. She was nice at first and then started challenging me on my salvation based on the free gift of God. As a new believer at the time (days in fact) it was very troublesome to me for the few weeks that we started the conversation. I began to struggle with doubt etc. It was after a couple weeks of the conversation that I realized she completely eliminated all the teaching from Romans to Philemon and I was therefore arguing with someone who had half a new testament.

                                Interestingly she never offered that information for a long time into our conversation. Had I realized her error from the beginning, I would not have had that issue and could have avoided all the heartache at the start.

                                That is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to help others avoid. And it is exactly the reason Paul told us to mark heretics, to protect others from wolves in sheeps clothing.

                                I stand for plenty thanks, and what I ignore is blinkered fundamentalist doctrine. Ironically you're even going against yourself if you think 'the holding cell in the centre of the earth' lasts for ever....
                                I never said the holding cell lasts forever. God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth. It is also at the end of the millenium when all lost, hell and death are cast into the lake of fire. The new earth will not have a hell.

                                You can't same the same about Scrabble though....
                                I like puzzles to give myself some idle time. Sudoku is challenging in a bothersome way. I want to relax. Give me a word find
                                Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"

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