No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?
(that is the definition of a heretic)
answer carefully.....Matthew 10:33
keep shinin
jerm
Er, He told them to listen to the "Pharisees." Sure, you can make a context of interpretation for about anything but we have to be careful of that. The disciples were to avoid the contaminants of the Pharisees.let's see if that holds any water when compared to scriptural references.
One of the standard or "orthodox" beliefs of the Sadducee was against the resurrection of the dead.
Now if the disciples were to do as the Sadducee said, were to adhere to what they taught, they too would have to not believe in the resurrection.
is that how you interpret that passage? to include all the orthodox beliefs of the Temple teachers?
to me what Y'shua is saying in that passage is specific to the context of the observance of Law of Moses, not every religious orthodox belief they had.
here it is for your review, Matthew 23:3.
keep shinin
jerm
Is there going to be a comparison? I'm not sure it will work. We make this assessment based on what we know of scripture in comparison, and we are protestant 'outsiders' looking at the two you mention. Jesus and the disciples were in the middle of the Jewish community. Jesus gave several 'in-house' verifications such as "we Jews worship what we know" and "I came for the house of Israel." Those, to me, are a lot different than trying to make a weaker comparison by contrast.what in your opinion is the correct Orthodoxy today (most accurate to the traditions of the apostles) that a person may follow your assertion above about Y'shua and what you beleive his example was for us to follow?
keep shinin
jerm
Do you remember when He corrected them, he uplifted one's teaching over the other on that particular? That is supporting an orthodoxy isn't it (Capital Orthodoxy means the Orthodox churchesWhy are you not confirming the Sadducee where scribes and sat in the seat of Moses at the time of Y'shua therefore included in His instruction to the disciples Matthew 23:3, and that their orthodox beliefs excluded resurrection?
I only asked you the question to try and give the example relevance and scripture application to our time and this thread who's subject is Orthodoxy and heresy (it's a given we are far removed from the their situation). The Sadducee where the very picture of Orthodoxy at that time (rejecting mitzvot and adhering only to Tanakh) yet Y'shua spoke directly against their belief concerning resurrection, Matthew 17:22-23.
how can you know that and still say Y'shua supported the Orthodoxy of his day?
perhaps the definition will help?
1or·tho·dox
adjective \ˈȯr-thə-ˌdäks\
1
a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion
keep shinin
jerm
)?
grammatically you are correct, that was my mistake capitalizing orthodoxy in this context, a bad habit with that word.(Capital Orthodoxy means the Orthodox churches
you are always in my prayers, Matthew 5:44, I can't even repent/regret knowing you C, I count that as a blessing as I count all those whom He sends to me.
keep shinin
jerm
me and Ben just had a rather long discussion about terms used in the Torah.
it seems back then there was much less separation between God, man, and His promises to man (more specifically Israel).
this is to be understood when you have water parting, manna falling from the sky, demons being cast out and people being resurrected, etc..
when was the last time any of that was going on?
long story short, Israel is God's Son, and God made certain promises to Abraham concerning Him and his seed, the scriptures intertwine these concepts without separation, (how can one separate a promise of God from God?) How can one separate a Son of God in the same manner when the Son is covered in the promise?
All these concepts were well established in the OT when Y'shua came, a Son of God who was also according to the apostles account the Word of God (much like the word that was a promise over Abraham's 1st born Israel) you can't separate them either, at least not in that encompassing context.
Here, Israel was God's Son (or God's beloved whom His promises resided over) but yet was not God in the non-corporal sense, but yet covered in His Word there God dwelt and cannot be separated from His own Word, likewise Y'shua, also Son of God, also Son of Man, also God's promises/word dwelt with Him and cannot be separated from God tho he was flesh like Israel was, Psalm 22:3, God inhabited their praise.
God's word (like promises and instruction) cannot be apart from God, it is a part of God, he who has the Word also Has God in that sense, God is Spirit and His Word is Life, that is why Y'shua said, John 5:39-40, they were searching the records of God's past word to look for Life and would not come to the Living Word that was in the vessel He chose (Y'shua) to have it more abundantly, John 10:10.
Y'shua was the fulfillment of the promise of God to bring a Messiah, as savior unto the house of David, that was God's Word that became flesh, and His Word cannot be severed from God, John 1:1, they are one, neither does it come back void.
I think the problem arises when people lack the education of the Torah and start thinking of these concepts as humans or corporal beings, these are not of man, neither can God or His Word, however it may go out, be compared to men and their gods and concepts of gods.
Y'shua showed throughout his ministry, he was not a Zeus could not be the conquering warrior Messiah men wanted him to be, he was not an offspring of a greater God sent here to free the Israelite's from Roman rule, he did not fit any of the concepts man previously had of God because He was the part of God that is the Word just as the Word/promises went forth over Israel, the same Word that created the heavens and earth, the same word that gave us the commandments, but that is not good enough for some people, it is not good enough for God's word to be the part of God we receive for Life, they want a God that fit's man's definition of God, they want to define God into an idol they can worship, into a man instead of accepting His Word which is what Y'shua was sent to give to the lost sheep.
if people want to worship a man or their own concept of God instead of accepting the Word that was sent forth throughout the Torah culminating in the promise of Messiah for the purpose of salvation they will not prosper but will be lost/perish Hosea 4:6.
keep shinin
jerm
It came with my name all over it...
Every body has to work with beliefs and all the Apostles warn of devisive members. I would have no problem with this list if he included me on it for some reason or another. He is doing what he believes scripture calls him to do. I am a Calvinist, so understand the minority view and sympathize with your plight, I think. There are a few threads here on TOL against us too. For me, it is one thread at a time and as I deem to interact (I can't do 25 threads a month or a year for Robert Pate).
