Scientists Question Darwinism

JudgeRightly

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Let us look at what follows "God created the heaven and the earth:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen.1:5).​

The description of the condition of the created earth at Genesis 1:2 must be a result of some event which changed the way that the earth was originally created:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited"
(Isa.45:18).​

I believe that what is said in "bold" in the following statement refers to the earth being inhabited before it was in a state described as being without form:

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS about science and religion).​
You're assuming, question begging, really, that God created everything perfectly in verse 1, and then something happened between verse 1 and 2.

Whereas scripture reads that God created the heavens and the earth, and then proceeded to make something out of the universe he created.

Why do you assume that there is a gap between verse 1 and verse 2?
 

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A "normal" day starts and ends at the same time. If it starts in the evening then it will end as the next evening approaches. If it begins in the morning then it will end as the next morning approaches.

It makes no sense to say that the following describes a "normal" day--"evening and morning the Xth day."
I'm not talking about normal as in what we see every day for the last thousands of years. I'm talking about ~24 hours.

Obviously, some of those days were different in other regards. The sun was not even created until day 4.

"evening and morning the Xth day" is simply telling us that these were not epochs or any other wild-eyed explanation.

God's Word tells that He created everything in six days.

Exo 20:9-11 KJV Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: (11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


God does not say that the first day was longer than the rest.
 
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Jerry Shugart

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You're assuming, question begging, really, that God created everything perfectly in verse 1, and then something happened between verse 1 and 2.

Yes, when the LORD created the earth at Genesis 1:1 He formed it to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

But by the time of Genesis 1:2 the earth was not in any shape to be inhabited by anyone:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen.1:1-2).​

Jesus affirmed what Moses wrote by saying the following:

But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

When the Lord said that he was referring to a specific verse in the OT concerning a creation:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mk.10:5-6).​

When the Lord referred to a "precept" he was referring to the "creation" which is in the verse which Moses wrote here:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Gen.1:27).​

The creation of Adam is the creation that the Lord Jesus was referring to at Mark 10:6. Not the creation of the earth.
 

JudgeRightly

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Yes, when the LORD created the earth at Genesis 1:1 He formed it to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

But by the time of Genesis 1:2 the earth was not in any shape to be inhabited by anyone:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen.1:1-2).​

No, God created it then formed it, like Isaiah says.

God created the universe on day one, then formed it over the next six days, just like Isaiah says, like Genesis says.

There's no gap.

You're intentionally inserting a gap where there is none.

The Bible does not day that God formed the earth twice.

It says that God created the heavens and the earth, then formed it in six days.

When the Lord said that he was referring to a specific verse in the OT concerning a creation:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female" (Mk.10:5-6).​

When the Lord referred to a "precept" he was referring to the "creation" which is in the verse which Moses wrote here:

The word used in verse 5 means commandment, not "creation."

0c7cf11fce1e7f5abd25c989907a1e4a.jpg



Strong's g1785

- Lexical: ἐντολή
- Transliteration: entolé
- Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
- Phonetic Spelling: en-tol-ay'
- Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.
- Origin: From entellomai; injunction, i.e. An authoritative prescription.
- Usage: commandment, precept.
- Translated as (count): commandment (31), commandments (22), a commandment (7), a command (2), a commandment -- (1), commands (1), instructions (1), of a commandment (1), of commandments (1).



The COMMANDMENT that Jesus is referring to is THIS commandment:

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days you shall labor and do all your work,but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:8-11&version=NKJV

There is NO COMMANDMENT in Genesis 1:27.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Gen.1:27).​

The creation of Adam is the creation that the Lord Jesus was referring to at Mark 10:6. Not the creation of the earth.

The verse says that God made man and woman "from the beginning of the creation."

Not "God made man and woman from the beginning of the creation of man," which would indicate that God made man and woman simultaneously, which He did not. God made man first, then woman.

The passage is talking about God making man in the first week of creation, WHICH INCLUDES (but is not limited to) Genesis 1:1.

Jesus was referring to Exodus 20:8-11 in Mark 10:5.

Exodus 20:11 is speaking of THE WHOLE CHAPTER of Genesis 1, the six days of creation, followed by a day of rest.
 

Jerry Shugart

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There's no gap.

You're intentionally inserting a gap where there is none.

You are ignoring the verses which I quoted. The LORD created the earth at Genesis 1:1 He formed it to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

But by the time of Genesis 1:2 the earth was not in any shape to be inhabited by anyone:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen.1:1-2).​

Do you seriously think that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"? Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."

Sometimes you just have to use a little common sense.

The word used in verse 5 means commandment, not "creation."

I never said that it means "creation." The Greek word which means "commandment" is the same word translated "precept":

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female"
(Mk.10:5-6).​

The COMMANDMENT that Jesus is referring to is THIS commandment:

No, the subject of his discourse at Mark 10:2-12 was divorce. And here is the commandment was in regard to divorce:

"And Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife. and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate" (Mk.10:5-9).​

The "commandment" was totally in regard to the subject of "divorce" and not in regard to remembering the sabbath and keeping it holy as you imagine. You cannot even understand what the simple subject of the commandment so it is obvious that you have no idea as to the meaning of the Lord's words in answer to the question about divorce.

Besides that, you have been able to trick your mind into believing that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"? Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."

You cannot see the truth because you don't want to see it.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Do you seriously think that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"? Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."

Sometimes you just have to use a little common sense.
yes Jesus created the earth without form and void
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void

and then gave it form for inhabitants


1 rotation of the earth = 1 day

day one earth and light without form

day two and three gave form to the earth

day four form to the light
 

JudgeRightly

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You are ignoring the verses which I quoted. The LORD created the earth at Genesis 1:1 He formed it to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).​

Which part did I ignore?

God created the earth, then formed it.

Just like ALL of Genesis 1 says.

You're intentionally compressing Isaiah 45:18 to try to fit it in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, when the passage fits much better across ALL of Genesis 1.

But by the time of Genesis 1:2 the earth was not in any shape to be inhabited by anyone:

Of course not, because God hadn't formed it into anything yet.

Why is that a problem?

There is no scripture that says that there was anything resembling life other than God by the end of Genesis 1:1, so why try to read into the passage what clearly is not there?

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen.1:1-2).​

And?

Actually, did you notice the "and"?

"And" is a conjuction word, used to join two phrases or sentences together, it allows for the continuation of a thought.

"God created the heavens and the earth AND the earth was without form and void..."

But God wasn't done yet.

God had started his creation, but He wasn't finished forming it into something habitable.

Do you seriously think that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"?

I know that the Lord Jesus wasn't finished making just because He created something.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

You're trying to say that God created everything perfect, and then made it into something else.

Whereas SCRIPTURE says that God created everything, and then made it into something perfect over the next 6 days, and then He rested.

Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."

You're equivocating.

"Create" and "form/make" are two different words in the Hebrew.

They do have similar meanings, but the word used in Genesis 1:1 is "bara," create:

Spoiler
Strong's h1254

- Lexical: בָּרָא
- Transliteration: bara'
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: baw-raw'
- Definition: choose.
- Origin: A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes).
- Usage: choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
- Translated as (count): created (5), have created (4), he created (4), choose (3), has created (3), I create (3), and create (2), And created (2), Create (2), that you were created (2), the Creator (2), they are created (2), when they were created (2), and creates (1), and cut down (1), and dispatch (1), and they were created (1), and will create (1), and you shall cut it down (1), for I have created (1), have been done (1), have You made (1), he who created (1), I have created (1), in creating (1), make (1), now your Creator (1), that created (1), that created you (1), to make yourselves fat (1), whom shall be created (1), you were created (1).


The words used in Isaiah in the passage you're trying to squeeze between 1:1 and 1:2 are "bara," create, "yatsar," to form, and "asah"

Yatsar, to form

Spoiler
Strong's h3335

- Lexical: יָצַר
- Transliteration: yatsar
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: yaw-tsar'
- Definition: formed.
- Origin: Probably identical with yatsar (through the squeezing into shape); ((compare yatsa')); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. Form a resolution).
- Usage: X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.
- Translated as (count): of the potter (5), the potter (3), And formed (2), and he who formed you (2), have made (2), he formed (2), of a potter (2), that formed (2), that I have formed (2), that the maker (2), the former (2), and fashioned (1), and forms (1), and he who formed (1), and his Maker me (1), and to him who fashioned (1), do formed (1), earthen (1), fashions (1), formed (1), frame (1), has formed (1), have I formed (1), He fashions (1), he had formed (1), he who formed (1), he who forms (1), his Maker (1), I form (1), I formed (1), I have formed (1), I have formed him (1), I have purposed (1), of as the potter (1), of him who framed (1), of in the potter (1), of like a potter (1), our potter (1), potter (1), that formed me (1), that frames (1), that is formed (1), the potters (1), they who make (1), to the potter (1), to the potter it (1), were fashioned (1), you and formed you (1).


Asah, to make

Spoiler
Strong's h6213

- Lexical: עָשָׂה
- Transliteration: asah
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: aw-saw'
- Definition: accomplish.
- Origin: A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows).
- Usage: accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, (fight-)ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ((a feast)), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be (warr-)ior, work(-man), yield, use.
- Translated as (count): do (112), to do (91), did (83), And did (72), and do (68), And made (60), he did (60), and he made (59), made (53), And you shall make (45), And he did (40), He made (35), you have done (34), Make (32), shall you do (31), had done (28), I have done (27), had made (26), shall you make (26), has done (24), you shall do (24), does (23), will do (23), have done (21), he has done (21), do do (18), done (17), and make (16), have made (16), have you done (16), I will do (16), shall do (16), he had done (15), you shall make (15), have I done (13), to make atonement (13), And they made (12), he had made (12), that do (12), they did (12), to observe (12), they have done (11), shall it be done (10), shall we do (10), that does (10), And worked (9), shall I do (9), so did (9), they made (9), to perform (9), will I do (9), you do (9), you shall offer (9), and kept (8), and to do (8), and you shall do (8), do done (8), is done (8), shall be done (8), they have committed (8), to be done (8), to celebrate (8), and done (7), and have made (7), And shall offer (7), deal (7), do make (7), that made (7), you did (7), And they did (6), doing (6), has made (6), he makes (6), I did (6), in doing (6), keep (6), show (6), to work (6), will You do (6), and I will make (5), But did (5), deals (5), execute (5), have they done (5), he has committed (5), he has made (5), I made (5), is made (5), makes (5), shall you offer (5), showed (5), they had made (5), worked (5), you have made (5), you will do (5), Also he made (4), and commits (4), and dress (4), and I will do (4), and maintain (4), and shall do (4), And they kept (4), and Thus did (4), and you shall offer (4), can do (4), commit (4), do made (4), executed (4), has worked (4), he does (4), his Maker (4), I do (4), I will make (4), shall he do (4), shall make (4), shall yield (4), that makes (4), we shall do (4), we will do (4), will we do (4), you shall prepare (4), and bear (3), And he shall do (3), and I will execute (3), and makes (3), and offer (3), And they shall make (3), and will execute (3), are done (3), be done (3), by doing (3), dealt (3), have committed (3), he shall make (3), he shall prepare (3), he who does (3), he worked (3), I have made (3), prepare (3), shall be made (3), she had made (3), that executes (3), that they should do (3), that worked (3), the maker (3), they have made (3), you have dealt (3), you have showed (3), you to do (3), about to do (2), and brought forth (2), and commit (2), and dealt (2), and execute (2), and had made (2), And has done (2), and have done (2), and have gotten (2), And he worked (2), and I will even do (2), and it shall be performed (2), And let them make (2), and let us make (2), and offered (2), And ordained (2), and shall execute (2), and shall make (2), and shall prepare (2), and show (2), And showing (2), and shows (2), and they shall deal (2), And they worked (2), and to make (2), and will keep (2), and will make (2), and works (2), and you shall also make (2), But he did (2), But I worked (2), can I do (2), do did (2), do does (2), do executed (2), do show (2), do they did (2), do to do (2), do you (2), for he has done (2), had prepared (2), has been done (2), has committed (2), has dealt (2), has executed (2), have dealt (2), have showed (2), have they made (2), he has worked (2), he offered (2), he shall do (2), he shall offer (2), he showed (2), he who made (2), he will do (2), he will make (2), I make (2), I shall do (2), I will execute (2), I will show (2), is worked (2), it shall be made (2), it These things did (2), kept (2), labored (2), let him do (2), Let us make (2), may be done (2), my maker (2), of the workmen (2), of those who do (2), perform (2), procure (2), shall commit (2), shall prepare (2), shall you prepare (2), she had done (2), she had prepared (2), she has done (2), she has worked (2), She makes (2), that did (2), that had done (2), that he made (2), that I may show (2), that they may do (2), that they may make (2), that were warriors (2), that you may do (2), that you should do (2), Then made (2), they commit (2), they had committed (2), they had done (2), they have worked (2), they shall keep (2), they who make (2), to act (2), to bring (2), to commit (2), To execute (2), To Him who made (2), to make (2), to offer (2), to prepare (2), we do (2), we have done (2), will make (2), will perform (2), will work (2), works (2), yielding (2), you Deal (2), you have committed (2), you made (2), you may do (2), you shall observe (2), your maker (2), - (1), accomplish (1), advanced (1), against the workers (1), against those who do (1), also let keep (1), also made (1), And and will do (1), and as he made (1), and be doing (1), and bring forth (1), and brought it forth (1), and committed (1), and deal (1), and decked (1), and did work (1), and do you (1), and does (1), and dressed (1), and fashioned me (1), and Furthermore he made (1), And got (1), and had done (1), and had worked (1), And he gathered (1), And he had prepared (1), and he makes (1), and he prepared (1), And he set (1), and he shall execute (1), And he shall offer (1), and he shall prepare (1), and held (1), and hold (1), and I did (1), and I have done (1), And I made (1), And I will make you (1), and If it do (1), and it brought forth (1), and it practiced (1), and it shall be done (1), and it shall bring forth (1), and keep (1), and made him (1), and made ready (1), And of it you shall make (1), and offer it (1), and pare (1), and perform (1), and performed (1), and practice (1), and prepared (1), and put (1), and shall be done (1), and shall come to pass (1), and shall deal (1), and shall I make (1), and shall it be meet (1), and shall you do (1), and shall you make (1), and surely (1), and that he spends (1), and that may yield (1), and they dressed (1), and they have done (1), and they performed (1), and they shall do (1), and those who were doing (1), and Thus shall he do (1), and Thus will I execute (1), and to be made (1), and to him and did (1), and to hinder (1), and to perform (1), and we will do (1), and we will show (1), and whereof were made (1), and who did (1), and who made (1), and Why he did (1), and Why you shall make (1), and will offer (1), and will perform it (1), and work (1), and yet he shall keep (1), And you shall keep (1), and you shall prepare (1), apt (1), are we at (1), as has been done (1), be committed (1), be made (1), bring it to pass (1), bring to pass (1), bruised (1), But do (1), but have done (1), But show (1), but they did (1), but they do them (1), but they made (1), but they who deal (1), But worked (1), but you shall make (1), by carefully (1), by preparing (1), commits (1), committing (1), could have been done (1), deal you (1), did he make (1), did I make (1), did make (1), did they bestow (1), did we make (1), do and he did (1), do been done (1), do but make (1), do dealt (1), do dressed (1), do execute (1), do followed (1), do have done (1), do he did (1), do He made (1), do held (1), do him (1), do it was meet (1), do kept (1), do me (1), do observed (1), do ought to be done (1), do perform (1), do performed (1), do sake you did (1), do to (1), do worked (1), do you displease (1), doer (1), effect (1), even he does (1), Execute you (1), executes (1), flew (1), for doing (1), for him who does (1), for they had executed (1), for to do (1), for work (1), for working (1), from doing (1), from it to make (1), from offering (1), from those who they would do (1), from you to do (1), fulfilling (1), furnish (1), go about (1), govern (1), great (1), had showed (1), had they done (1), had they prepared (1), has brought (1), has done them (1), has fulfilled (1), has gotten (1), has he dealt (1), has he done (1), has he gotten (1), has he who works (1), has made me (1), has set (1), has taken (1), have appointed (1), have kept (1), have made me (1), have procured (1), have set (1), have we done (1), have You made (1), have you served (1), He appointed (1), He does execute (1), he executed (1), he executes (1), he fits (1), he had prepared (1), he had showed (1), he had worked (1), he has executed (1), he has gotten (1), He has not dealt (1), he has prepared (1), he maintain (1), he make (1), he may make (1), he must do (1), he shall deal (1), he shall surely (1), he should do (1), he was to make (1), he who gets (1), he who works (1), He will fulfill (1), he will show (1), him he shall work (1), himself (1), how to work (1), I deal (1), I got (1), I had made (1), I have executed (1), I have made them (1), I have prepared (1), I have showed (1), I shall prepare (1), I should do (1), I should have worked (1), I was made (1), I will even deal (1), I will offer (1), I will prepare (1), I will surely (1), I will undo (1), I worked (1), if shall do (1), if you thoroughly (1), in bruising (1), in executing (1), in his Maker (1), in order to do (1), in so doing (1), in to offer (1), indeed (1), is committed (1), is dressed (1), it shall accomplish (1), it shall be done (1), it shall be offered (1), it should bring forth (1), it yield (1), Let do (1), let it be done (1), let make (1), made him (1), make up (1), may be used (1), may do (1), may you offer (1), me I will do (1), men (1), Moreover he made (1), Moreover he provided (1), nor done (1), not doing (1), not made (1), of doing (1), of making (1), of offering (1), of the doers (1), of those who did (1), of those who have the charge (1), of you have they dealt (1), of you they commit (1), offer (1), on doing (1), on that which is not? for certainly (1), on you to do (1), ought to be done (1), ought to do (1), our maker (1), prepared (1), procured (1), ready dressed (1), seeing you do (1), shall accomplish (1), shall be given (1), shall be offered (1), shall bring to pass (1), shall deal (1), shall have done (1), shall he make (1), shall keep (1), shall offer (1), shall provide (1), shall they make it (1), shall you deal (1), 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who worked (1), will certainly (1), will deal (1), will do us (1), will dress (1), will I certainly do (1), will I do it (1), will maintain (1), will requite (1), will You execute (1), will You show (1), working (1), would happen (1), would make (1), you and cause (1), you and make (1), you but will make (1), you did deal (1), you had made (1), you have gotten (1), you have granted (1), you have maintained (1), you have shown (1), you have to do (1), you have used (1), you make (1), you might do (1), you ought to do (1), you practice (1), you prepare (1), you shall both do (1), you shall deal (1), you shall keep (1), you shall show (1), you should do (1), you then have dealt (1), you then may you do (1), you to keep (1), you when I shall execute (1), you will make (1), you will offer (1), you work (1), yourself to work (1).


For thus says the Lord, Who created [bara] the heavens, Who is God, Who formed [yatsar] the earth and made [asah] it, Who has established it, Who did not create [bara] it in vain, Who formed [yatsar] it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord , and there is no other. - Isaiah 45:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah45:18&version=NKJV

God did not create [bara] it in vain, like you're trying to assert, even if unintentionally, but he FORMED IT (yatsar) to be inhabited.

That is a very good description of what God did between the beginning of day one, in Genesis 1:1, and the end of Day 6, where God had finished making it inhabitable for man.

You're the one asserting that God created in vain, so that he had to make again.

Sometimes you just have to use a little common sense.

This coming from someone who's not using any.

I never said that it means "creation."

I apologize, then. I must have misunderstood what you said.

The Greek word which means "commandment" is the same word translated "precept":

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female"
(Mk.10:5-6).​

Which does NOT change the fact that there are no precepts/commandments in Genesis 1:27, but there IS a precept/commandment in Exodus 20:8-11.

No, the subject of his discourse at Mark 10:2-12 was divorce.

I agree that that is the primary point he's making.

But as a result of his discourse, we ALSO learn that man and woman were made FROM THE BEGINNING of the creation, and not after and undetermined amount of time.

Days 1-6 are from the beginning of creation.

Creation is on day one, man was made on the sixth day.

And here is the commandment was in regard to divorce:

"And Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife. and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate" (Mk.10:5-9).​

The "commandment" was totally in regard to the subject of "divorce" and not in regard to remembering the sabbath and keeping it holy as you imagine. You cannot even understand what the simple subject of the commandment so it is obvious that you have no idea as to the meaning of the Lord's words in answer to the question about divorce.

And you're missing the point I was making.

Jesus said "from the beginning of the creation."

Moses said "for in six days God made the heavens and the earth.

Isaiah said For thus says the Lord, Who created [bara] the heavens, Who is God, Who formed [yatsar] the earth and made [asah] it, Who has established it, Who did not create [bara] it in vain, Who formed [yatsar] it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord , and there is no other. - Isaiah 45:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah45:18&version=NKJV

Moses ALSO wrote Genesis 1, the whole chapter, which describes the process of God creating the universe, but not in vain (He didn't create it only to have it destroyed), and then forming [yatsar] the earth to make it habitable.

Besides that, you have been able to trick your mind into believing that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"?

No, I simply read the text as it is, instead of trying to fit my own ideas into the text and trying to squeeze in a gap between verses that simply doesn't exist.

Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."

Why is it so hard for you to fathom that God simply made something, and then worked over the next six days to perfect it, and make it habitable, exactly as described in Genesis 1?

You cannot see the truth because you don't want to see it.

:blabla:
 
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Derf

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I don't think the following necessarily implies that the fish who have been here for millions of years were destroyed before the first day spoken of at Genesis 1:5:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen.1:5).​

The description of the condition of the created earth at Genesis 1:2 must be a result of some event which changed the way that the earth was originally created:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited"
(Isa.45:18).​

I believe that what is said in "bold" in the following statement refers to the earth being inhabited before it was in a state described as being without form:

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS about science and religion).​

I guess you can come to all kinds of conclusions if you don't use all the available scriptures to help you understand it. Ex 20:11 is one such verse that helps us to understand the genesis of fish. It says that everything in the heavens and the earth and the seas were made in 6 days. Here's the verse: [Exo 20:11 KJV] For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If there are fish in the seas that were not made during the six days, then Ex 20:11 is wrong. Is that what you're suggesting?
 

JudgeRightly

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I guess you can come to all kinds of conclusions if you don't use all the available scriptures to help you understand it. Ex 20:11 is one such verse that helps us to understand the genesis of fish. It says that everything in the heavens and the earth and the seas were made in 6 days. Here's the verse: [Exo 20:11 KJV] For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If there are fish in the seas that were not made during the six days, then Ex 20:11 is wrong. Is that what you're suggesting?
An EXCELLENT point!
 

Jerry Shugart

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I guess you can come to all kinds of conclusions if you don't use all the available scriptures to help you understand it.

You conveniently didn't deal with two different verses which i quoted which are essential to understand what was happening during the six days. First we see that the LORD formed the earth to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18)​

But by Genesis 1:2, after the earth was created, it was without form:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. " (Gen.1:1-2).

Common sense dictates that after the earth was created in such a way that it was formed to be inhabited it became without form and in a state where men could not inhabit it. So everything that happened after it became formless had nothing to do with making things out of nothing. The creation was completed by the time the earth became formless and then the LORD was dealing with things which had already come into existence out of nothing:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day" (Ex.20:11; CLV).​

Sir Robert Anderson explained it in the following manner in "bold":

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS about science and religion).​

For instance, during the six day the LORD created man (Gen.1:27) but he used something which was already in existence to create him because Adam was formed out of the dust of the ground (Gen.2:7).
 

Derf

Well-known member
You conveniently didn't deal with two different verses which i quoted which are essential to understand what was happening during the six days. First we see that the LORD formed the earth to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18)​

But by Genesis 1:2, after the earth was created, it was without form:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. " (Gen.1:1-2).

Common sense dictates that after the earth was created in such a way that it was formed to be inhabited it became without form and in a state where men could not inhabit it. So everything that happened after it became formless had nothing to do with making things out of nothing. The creation was completed by the time the earth became formless and then the LORD was dealing with things which had already come into existence out of nothing:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day" (Ex.20:11; CLV).​

Sir Robert Anderson explained it in the following manner in "bold":

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS about science and religion).​

For instance, during the six day the LORD created man (Gen.1:27) but he used something which was already in existence to create him because Adam was formed out of the dust of the ground (Gen.2:7).

I thought that was already resolved, here: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...on-Darwinism&p=5327243&viewfull=1#post5327243
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Why is it so hard for you to fathom that God simply made something, and then worked over the next six days to perfect it, and make it habitable, exactly as described in Genesis 1?

So even though the Lord Jesus laid the foundations of the earth (Heb.1:10) the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep? if you are right then He did a poor job.

Do you seriously think that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"? Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."
 

Jerry Shugart

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You thought wrong!

Perhaps you will give it a try. Do you seriously think that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"? Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."
He created a world "without form" and "He formed it." Nobody disputes that.
 

JudgeRightly

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You conveniently didn't deal with two different verses which i quoted which are essential to understand what was happening during the six days. First we see that the LORD formed the earth to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18)​

But by Genesis 1:2,

STOP.

I have addressed this point already TWICE now.

Repeating it again does not make it any less invalid.

You are REPEATEDLY forcing the verse in Isaiah in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, and in doing so, you inherently make it so that God DID create the world in vain, because you force the text to say that God started to remake it in verse 2.

But that's NOT what Isaiah 45:18 is describing.

Isaiah 45:18 is describing the ENTIRE CREATION WEEK, and DOES NOT ALLOW for your interpretation of Genesis 1:1-2, because it is talking about the WHOLE WEEK.
 

JudgeRightly

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So even though the Lord Jesus laid the foundations of the earth (Heb.1:10) the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep?

That's EXACTLY what scripture says, why would I dispute that?

The foundations of the earth is the mantle.

God didn't create the crust until days two and three, in the midst of the waters of verse 2, to divide the waters above from the waters below.

if you are right then He did a poor job.

Of what?

All He had done at that point was bring the heavens and the earth into existence.

Do you seriously think that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form"

Yes. At that point, He had not formed it yet. That would happen over the next six days.

even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"?

This is question begging.

No one denies that God formed the world to be inhabited.

The issue is not what the text says, Jerry, but what YOU YOURSELF are saying.

You're trying to force Isaiah 45:18 in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, when Isaiah 45:18 is talking about ALL of Genesis 1, the WHOLE CHAPTER.

Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."

Why? Because you say so?

Why COULDN'T God create a universe and create matter inside that universe in the shape of a ball, and then form it and make things out of it over the next six days?

Why is that impossible for God?

Because THAT is EXACTLY what the ENTIRETY of GENESIS CHAPTER ONE is ALL ABOUT!
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
He created a world "without form" and "He formed it." Nobody disputes that.

No, the Lord Jesus formed it to be inhabited:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited"
(Isa.45:18).​

Even though that verse says that the Lord formed the world to be inhabited you say that he created a world "without form."
 

Derf

Well-known member
You thought wrong!

Perhaps you will give it a try. Do you seriously think that the Lord Jesus created an earth "without form" even though Isaiah 45:18 says that He "formed it to be inhabited"? Of course since the earth was created by the hand of the LORD and He formed it to be inhabited then He wouldn't create it "without form."

Shall we go back to Ex 20:11?
[Exo 20:11 KJV] 11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If Is 45:18 says He "formed it to be inhabited", how long did it take to be inhabited? The verse is saying "to be inhabited", not "already inhabited".

If the earth was still without form and void (meaning not yet inhabited) after just a part of the first day, and He says it took Him a full six days to do all of His creating (and "forming"), why do you offer Is 45:18 as some kind of argument against Exodus 20:11? Does it say the earth was without form and void after six days? It seems to me that Gen 1, Ex 20, and Is 45 are in agreement. The party that's not in agreement with them appears to be you.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Shall we go back to Ex 20:11?
[Exo 20:11 KJV] 11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I will use Exodus 20:11 later too advance my argument but first let is look at this verse first:

"In the beginning God created (bara') the heaven and the earth"
(Gen.1:1).​

Here the Hebrew word is translated bara'. The following verse uses the same Hebrew word when speaking of the creation of the earth:

"For thus saith the LORD that created (bara') the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created (bara') it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:8).​

The LORD formed the earth to be inhabited. And for it to be inhabited it was absolutely necessary for there to be a source of both light and energy so originally there was a sun close enough so it could provide both light and energy. However, by the second verse of the book of Genesis we read that there was darkness on the surface of the deep seas:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).​

Since the earth was created to be inhabited and since by verse two there was no source of energy and light there had been a change in the original make-up of the heaven and the earth. So after this change the LORD began to re-form the heavens and the earth to make the earth inhabitable for mankind. At first, the Spirit of God served as a temporary source of light:

"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light"
(Gen.1:2-3).​

That served as only a temporary source of light because on the forth day we read:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also"
(Gen.1:16).​

Here the word "made" actually means that the LORD arranged them and not brought them into existence out of nothing because the stars had already been created out of nothing. And that brings us to the verse you keep using to try to support your ideas:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day" (Ex.20:11; CLV).​

The LORD dealt with the heavens when He rearranged the stars, especially the sun. He rearranged the earth because previously it was without form but He now formed it to be inhabited.

So we can understand that the LORD did not create the heavens and the earth in six days but instead He dealt with both during the six days in order to make the earth into a form which could be inhabited by mankind, including providing a permanant source of light and energy.
 
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