TOL - The Site For Foreign Trump Haters To Rant?

[eider]

Lon I forgot to ask....
Do you belong to a particular Church or Creed?

 

[Lon]

Hi Lon,
Please don't take notice of ok doser's claims about what I wrote, think or believe.

It's got to be a 'real quotes only' tenet with that character.

Corrections and further input are always helpful, thanks.

Lon I forgot to ask....
Do you belong to a particular Church or Creed?

I've tended to be on page with Westminster but I get to 'limited' (for instance) a different way than most Calvinists. I'd probably have said prior that I was Amyraldian but not Catholic with a bit of Lutheran mixed in. Today, I'd be Calvinist-lite because I have reservations in discussion. Because Christ did not die retroactively for those already past who did not believe, I'd say that alone is 'limited' but Calvinists mean something different and so limited Atonement has long been the hold-out. Other Calvinist-lites accept me as a Calvinist. Those who are very much on page with all of Calvin teachings say I'm not (also a few on TOL, who are not Calvinists say I'm not). At the very least, it is useful for explaining where I come from, for the most part - Amyraldian leaning toward 5 points and believing God is in control of His universe. -Lon

 

[ok doser]

... Christ did not die retroactively for those already past who did not believe ...

:think:

Did He die retroactively for those who did believe?

I guess we need to clarify what you mean by "believe". Cain certainly "believed" in God, he knew Him, he spoke with Him, but I'd take a lot of persuading to be convinced that Cain was saved.

Were Adam and Eve saved?

Was Abel, whose sacrifice was respected and who, apparently, died in a sinless state?



I'm uncomfortable with the idea that nobody was saved who died before the Cross

 

[eider]

Corrections and further input are always helpful, thanks.

I've tended to be on page with Westminster but I get to 'limited' (for instance) a different way than most Calvinists. I'd probably have said prior that I was Amyraldian but not Catholic with a bit of Lutheran mixed in. Today, I'd be Calvinist-lite because I have reservations in discussion. Because Christ did not die retroactively for those already past who did not believe, I'd say that alone is 'limited' but Calvinists mean something different and so limited Atonement has long been the hold-out. Other Calvinist-lites accept me as a Calvinist. Those who are very much on page with all of Calvin teachings say I'm not (also a few on TOL, who are not Calvinists say I'm not). At the very least, it is useful for explaining where I come from, for the most part - Amyraldian leaning toward 5 points and believing God is in control of His universe. -Lon

Thank you very much.
Now, I need to copy your whole description and go off to learn about every part of it.
That'll tale me today, I reckon....

 

[eider]

Corrections and further input are always helpful, thanks.


I've tended to be on page with Westminster but I get to 'limited' (for instance) a different way than most Calvinists. I'd probably have said prior that I was Amyraldian but not Catholic with a bit of Lutheran mixed in. Today, I'd be Calvinist-lite because I have reservations in discussion. Because Christ did not die retroactively for those already past who did not believe, I'd say that alone is 'limited' but Calvinists mean something different and so limited Atonement has long been the hold-out. Other Calvinist-lites accept me as a Calvinist. Those who are very much on page with all of Calvin teachings say I'm not (also a few on TOL, who are not Calvinists say I'm not). At the very least, it is useful for explaining where I come from, for the most part - Amyraldian leaning toward 5 points and believing God is in control of His universe. -Lon

Hello again....
I said that I would check out all of those creeds, terms, titles and churches...... I did....

It looks to me as if your Christian journey has been a complex one, ranging from a Christianity which God decided you would take, to one of personal choice to have faith. And I can see that there were/are yet more complexities still within.......

I once read that there are over 3000 Christian Creeds but I could only name about ten. I wanted to question you about why your Christianity should be so complex, a complexity which must surely have required above intelligence to grasp, understand and then to follow. And then tonight as I watched television a thought opccired to me and I knew what I wanted to ask.....

Here it is. Think of a simple person, a person with an intelligence Quotient of about 80, who left school as soon as lawfully possible and who is now, say, 23 yrs old and collects Supermarket selection trolleys from around a huge car-park and returns them to trolley centres around that car-park. That ios their full time job. Now that person starts going to a church and takes more interest in the Christian Faith than before, and eventually decides that s/he believes in Jesus Christ and that s/he will follow Christian teachings and tenets........................
Question:- Can that simple person get to go to Heaven ....... Yes or No?
Question:- If that person can go to Heaven, what was/is the value of all the complexity and theological degree that you attained?
Question: If you both did get to Heaven, would your standing be any higher or better than his/hers?

That is what has been generated by researching your basic Christian journey..... those questions.

 

[Lon]

:think:

Did He die retroactively for those who did believe?

When He died, he went to the 'bosom of Abraham (Paradise)' where He 'preached to all the saints.'
So, as far as my studies, the saints went to Abraham's bosom whereas those who weren't, went to Hades.

I guess we need to clarify what you mean by "believe". Cain certainly "believed" in God, he knew Him, he spoke with Him, but I'd take a lot of persuading to be convinced that Cain was saved.

We aren't given that information directly.

Were Adam and Eve saved?

We don't know, directly. While Moses and Elijah were with Jesus Matthew 17:3, Adam was not there.

Was Abel, whose sacrifice was respected and who, apparently, died in a sinless state?

He was exercising faith in sacrifice which was acceptable, so it'd seem he was.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that nobody was saved who died before the Cross

Paradise vs. Hades (place of fire) discussed above should help, I'd think. Those who had faith, went to Paradise and awaited redemption. Luke 16:19-31 In Him -Lon

 

[Lon]

Question:- Can that simple person get to go to Heaven ....... Yes or No?

Matthew 19:4 then Matthew 18:3 finally Romans 10:13

Question:- If that person can go to Heaven, what was/is the value of all the complexity and theological degree that you attained?

Answering questions like this for others, grasping my own walk with God more completely. The advantage is that Christ meets us at 'our' place of need. As you've seen in this thread, Doser doesn't do a lot of theology. James 3:1 warns that most should not be teachers. I pray often about answers I give, not so much that I'm worried about the more severe scrutiny, but that I'm concerned that I best honor Him and that other's have a meaningful answer.

Question: If you both did get to Heaven, would your standing be any higher or better than his/hers?

I'm not certain. There are scriptures that talk about such things, but for me, it isn't 'reward' that motivates, but as my moniker says, I want to be known for loving people, and God. Jesus said all the O.T. is summed up in these two.

That is what has been generated by researching your basic Christian journey..... those questions.

Thanks. Appreciate the time taken...I pray the answers guide you further to Him. -Lon

 

[eider]

Matthew 19:4 then Matthew 18:3 finally Romans 10:13

Thanks for your answers Lon.
I was surprised by your choice of Jesus's words (I didn't read Paul's).
Take just Matthew 19:4 :-And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female

...... so I asked another Christian the same question and he gave me straight from 'the shoulder':-
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

........ which cover both those with 'lack of reason' and those with 'lack of education'

Answering questions like this for others, grasping my own walk with God more completely. The advantage is that Christ meets us at 'our' place of need. As you've seen in this thread, Doser doesn't do a lot of theology. James 3:1 warns that most should not be teachers. I pray often about answers I give, not so much that I'm worried about the more severe scrutiny, but that I'm concerned that I best honor Him and that other's have a meaningful answer.

James {3:1} My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
OK...... I tend to focus upon what Jesus said.
Forgive me for saying it, but I'm still not sure whether James had been the disciple, or Jesus brother or yet another.
You see, I have not studied the history of the Actions of the Apostles.
Those who can teach, should teach. As I understyand it every Christian is an evangelist and so a teacher..... but what does a deist know?

I'm not certain. There are scriptures that talk about such things, but for me, it isn't 'reward' that motivates, but as my moniker says, I want to be known for loving people, and God. Jesus said all the O.T. is summed up in these two.

Surely that is crucial? The poor of intellect, the poor of mind, the poor of strength, the poor of ability, the poor of wealth..... surely they should all have a chance of Christian Heaven? If not......... then it doesn't look like the heaven that Jesus talked about. It's not about what I believe, but what is reported about Jesus.

Thanks. Appreciate the time taken...I pray the answers guide you further to Him. -Lon

And thank you...... I don't discuss religion on TOL much.

I know this was the wrong place......... but it just happened like it did.
Historical Jesus is my very first past-time.

 

[Lon]

Thanks for your answers Lon.
I was surprised by your choice of Jesus's words (I didn't read Paul's).
Take just Matthew 19:4 :-And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female

...... so I asked another Christian the same question and he gave me straight from 'the shoulder':-
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

........ which cover both those with 'lack of reason' and those with 'lack of education'


James {3:1} My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
OK...... I tend to focus upon what Jesus said.
Forgive me for saying it, but I'm still not sure whether James had been the disciple, or Jesus brother or yet another.
You see, I have not studied the history of the Actions of the Apostles.
Those who can teach, should teach. As I understand, every Christian is an evangelist and so a teacher..... but what does a deist know?

As much as scripture study allows and reveals. I pray this conversation is fruitful to that end.

Surely that is crucial? The poor of intellect, the poor of mind, the poor of strength, the poor of ability, the poor of wealth..... surely they should all have a chance of Christian Heaven? If not......... then it doesn't look like the heaven that Jesus talked about. It's not about what I believe, but what is reported about Jesus.

I was answering rather from the 'educated' side of your question. As I said, I think real crowns (treasures) are people. The Apostle Paul wished he could be condemned for his lost brothers. Heaven is for all who, by faith, trust in the saving Gift of Christ. Those who don't need it, will either not try, or do so without Him. Me? It only makes sense to rely, in faith, upon One who wants me (you, all of us) to make it. My uncle was very disturbed (schizophrenia). During moments of cogent thought, he'd simply say 'pray for me.' Such seems, to me, to be 'child-like' faith. God's desire is to save. 2 Peter 3:9b "He is unwilling that any perish."

Hebrews 7:25 "He is able to save to the uttermost, those who are perishing.'

And thank you...... I don't discuss religion on TOL much.

I know this was the wrong place......... but it just happened like it did.
Historical Jesus is my very first past-time.

I don't believe anybody is happier for the side discussion than Doser. While he is interested in politics, I know he is ever happy anybody hears about the Lord Jesus Christ and His salvation. -Lon

 

[ok doser]

I don't believe anybody is happier for the side discussion than Doser. While he is interested in politics, I know he is ever happy anybody hears about the Lord Jesus Christ and His salvation. -Lon

:thumb: