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  • Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    I'm going to have to think through this before I answer you.

    Thanks, Theo.
    I value you as a long time friend.
    And until you started posting here at TOL lately, I never viewed you as a Calvinist.
    Go figure!

    But I would like to discuss the topic with you, and don't intend to stomp on you about it.
    Just discuss, friend to friend, and would like any light you can shed on my questions.
    With others, you will have to fend for yourself!!!

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by theophilus View Post
      The Lord, alone, knows the difference between the wheat and the tares. He alone searches the hearts of men. He knows His own.

      His own obey Him.
      They praise Him.
      They thank Him.
      They live to honor and glorify Him.
      They seek His face.
      They bow to Him.
      They exalt Him.
      They live to please Him.
      They confess their sins to Him.
      They walk in a manner pleasing to Him.
      They are ambassadors for Him.
      His word is hidden in their hearts so they might not sin against Him.
      They are forgiven in Him.
      They die daily for Him.
      They deny themselves for Him.
      They give for Him.
      They sacrifice for Him.
      They are sold out to Him.
      They speak for Him.
      They pray and commune with Him.
      They are justified through Him.
      They are sanctified by Him.
      They are purchased by Him.
      They believe, by faith, they will one day be like Him.
      Their hearts, souls, minds and strength are consumed with Him and by Him.
      They think they deserve Hell.
      They are nothing without Him.
      They are everything with Him.

      He knows His own.
      None of those reveal "what determines whether one is a Christian, or not?". A couple of those reveal the person is not! And since when does what you DO have anything to do with salvation?
      2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

      Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
        Do Calvinists agree that it would be evil to oppose God?


        When a Calvinist tells others that they should do good and not evil, they just might be talking to someone that is not capable of doing anything but evil.
        So telling them to be good would be in direct conflict with God's decreed purpose that he remain evil.
        To put another way, to tell a reprobate that they should be doing good would make you an opposer of God's decree for them.
        If they are doing evil things, it is only because God decreed them to be doing evil things.
        So why would you tell them to oppose God's decree for them?


        Since God is the one that plants belief in you, then telling others what they should believe would be in opposition of God's decree.
        They cannot believe what you tell them, they can only believe what God plants in them.
        So no one should be listening to you at all.
        Nothing you tell them will matter.
        In fact, scripture shouldn't even be believed, beacasue it has no power to convince you one way or the other.
        They should just wait till God plants in them whatever He wants them to believe.


        Therefore, wickedness is decreed by God to take place.
        The wicked are no more responsible for their belief and behavior than the non-wicked.
        They can be nothing else.
        In fact, don't Calvinists say that God's decree is holy and just, and that His decree of wickedness glorifies Him just as His decree of righteous also glorifies Him?
        We can sorta see this concept in that it seemed wicked for man to crucify Christ on the cross, but we actually view it as glorious.
        So in this case, wickedness did glorify Him.
        I mean, Peter tried to stop the wickedness from happening, but was made to not hinder the wickedness, but to let it happen.
        But is that the pattern in which we should perceive all wickedness?
        Are we to see all wickedness as glorious and not attempt to hinder any wickedness?




        Why would God be grieved of the wickedness he saw if that wickedness glorifies Him?
        Why would God be grieved when he saw men being wicked, if it was His decree they be that way?
        That would have God grieving over what He Himself decreed in advance to happen!
        You all's limited perspective of predestination is disappointing. It seems we can never get out of the rudiments in order to delve into anything more complex.

        Calvinism sits directly on a notion of Providence, which like Catholicism, there is a authority from within the church itself which God utilizes.
        If you tell a person to do good, and they were evil before but become good, then they were predestined, incited by God's Providence to be such.

        You really just wasted your time making the other 80% of your post, cascading fiction from more fiction. But I suppose that's all you can do when rejecting the real gospel

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Crucible View Post
          You all's limited perspective of predestination is disappointing. It seems we can never get out of the rudiments in order to delve into anything more complex.

          Calvinism sits directly on a notion of Providence, which like Catholicism, there is a authority from within the church itself which God utilizes.
          If you tell a person to do good, and they were evil before but become good, then they were predestined, incited by God's Providence to be such.

          You really just wasted your time making the other 80% of your post, cascading fiction from more fiction. But I suppose that's all you can do when rejecting the real gospel
          Your non-answers are noted.
          According to Calvinism, what you believe is exactly what God made you to believe, and not because you made any decision to agree or disagree.
          It is just as likely that God has made you believe a lie, thinking it is truth, so He can be glorified by your false belief..

          We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
          They already know monsters exist.
          We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
            Your non-answers are noted.
            According to Calvinism, what you believe is exactly what God made you to believe
            Exactly. But your premise is based on an idea that people are supposed to believe what they believed in the beginning, which is nonsensical and ridiculous. Calvinism is about the evolution of the person- their end result. What they ultimately become and believe when the rooster crows.
            They were either saved or damned from the start according to that.

            You should be arrested for attempted theology

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
              Thanks, Theo.
              I value you as a long time friend.
              And until you started posting here at TOL lately, I never viewed you as a Calvinist.
              Go figure!

              But I would like to discuss the topic with you, and don't intend to stomp on you about it.
              Just discuss, friend to friend, and would like any light you can shed on my questions.
              With others, you will have to fend for yourself!!!
              I'll tell you what I understand about what I think.

              How's that?



              *Right now counts forever!

              Romans 14:12
              Matt. 12:36-37

              !



              - Psalmist
              - Desert Reign

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Crucible View Post
                Exactly. But your premise is based on an idea that people are supposed to believe what they believed in the beginning,
                Nope.

                I'm saying that according to Calvinism, what you (or anyone else) believes at any given time is exactly what God planned for you to believe at that time.
                And if, at this time, you believe a lie to be truth, then that is what God planned for you to believe at this time.
                So, anything you say or do in an attempt to convince someone to believe, through scripture, logic, or anything else, is vanity.
                It's like talking to the wind.

                We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                They already know monsters exist.
                We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                  I'll tell you what I understand about what I think.

                  How's that?

                  That's what I'm looking for.
                  Not looking for any orthodox systematic creed.
                  Just what you actually think on the matter.

                  For the record, I believe Calvinists have the same view of the end result - by grace instead of works.
                  It's the method of getting there where we differ.

                  We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                  They already know monsters exist.
                  We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                    Nope.

                    I'm saying that according to Calvinism, what you (or anyone else) believes at any given time is exactly what God planned for you to believe at that time.
                    And if, at this time, you believe a lie to be truth, then that is what God planned for you to believe at this time.
                    So, anything you say or do in an attempt to convince someone to believe, through scripture, logic, or anything else, is vanity.
                    It's like talking to the wind.
                    Proverbs 16:4
                    The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

                    Isaiah 45:7
                    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


                    God utilizes the wicked to punish sin, even unto their own selves. He also uses the wicked as a spectacle to the righteous, so they see the importance of grace.

                    It's amazing how you all completely cut out literally half of God and reality altogether to attack the inevitable truth. It's not called 'reformed' doctrine for nothing, it is the unadulterated, rigid truth you all try to bend.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by heir View Post
                      None of those reveal "what determines whether one is a Christian, or not?". A couple of those reveal the person is not! And since when does what you DO have anything to do with salvation?
                      Galatians 6

                      1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

                      Paul is telling us to DO something.

                      2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.

                      Paul is telling us to DO something.

                      6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.

                      Paul is telling us to DO something.

                      7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

                      More things to DO.

                      11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

                      17 From now on let no one cause trouble for me, for I bear on my body the brand-marks of Jesus.

                      18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.

                      DOing things are not FOR your salvation. Doing things is one of the marks of Christ Jesus in you so the world can see:

                      1. The light you have been given by the Father of Lights.

                      2. You good works so the world may glorify the Father Who is in heaven.

                      3. To draw others to Christ Jesus.

                      4. To TEACH others about the mysteries of God and His Christ.

                      5. To be different from the world.


                      *Right now counts forever!

                      Romans 14:12
                      Matt. 12:36-37

                      !



                      - Psalmist
                      - Desert Reign

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                        That's what I'm looking for.
                        Not looking for any orthodox systematic creed.
                        Just what you actually think on the matter.

                        For the record, I believe Calvinists have the same view of the end result - by grace instead of works.
                        It's the method of getting there where we differ.
                        No creed. Just what I think.

                        And yes, the goal is the same...but the way we all get there as individuals is as different as we are, in ourselves. We all walk a path. Mine may be rocky, yours may be windy, another's may be stormy and still others may be a "walk" in the park. BUT GOD, who knows our hearts, know exactly how His Spirit will work in us to bring us into the Kingdom.


                        *Right now counts forever!

                        Romans 14:12
                        Matt. 12:36-37

                        !



                        - Psalmist
                        - Desert Reign

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                          Galatians 6

                          1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

                          Paul is telling us to DO something.

                          2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another. 5 For each one will bear his own load.

                          Paul is telling us to DO something.

                          6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.

                          Paul is telling us to DO something.

                          7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

                          More things to DO.

                          11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

                          17 From now on let no one cause trouble for me, for I bear on my body the brand-marks of Jesus.

                          18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.

                          DOing things are not FOR your salvation. Doing things is one of the marks of Christ Jesus in you so the world can see:

                          1. The light you have been given by the Father of Lights.

                          2. You good works so the world may glorify the Father Who is in heaven.

                          3. To draw others to Christ Jesus.

                          4. To TEACH others about the mysteries of God and His Christ.

                          5. To be different from the world.
                          None of those have anything to do with salvation! Paul tells us we did nothing of ourselves to be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV). If you so much as moved your little finger in an attempt to save yourself, you aren't saved (Ephesians 2:7 KJV). Salvation is by grace (Romans 11:6 KJV). You cannot serve to be saved. Get saved and serve!
                          2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                          Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by heir View Post
                            None of those have anything to do with salvation! Paul tells us we did nothing of ourselves to be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV). If you so much as moved your little finger in an attempt to save yourself, you aren't saved (Ephesians 2:7 KJV). Salvation is by grace (Romans 11:6 KJV). You cannot serve to be saved. Get saved and serve!
                            You apparently read that part about "DOing things are not FOR your salvation."

                            And no one said anything about serving to be saved.

                            As for "Get saved and serve!" why don't you flesh that out for me?

                            What is "serving?"

                            Serving God?

                            Serving each other?

                            Serving ourselves?

                            Serving the Church?

                            Serving the poor?

                            Serving prisoners?

                            Serving the least of these?

                            Pray tell!



                            *Right now counts forever!

                            Romans 14:12
                            Matt. 12:36-37

                            !



                            - Psalmist
                            - Desert Reign

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                              You apparently read that part about "DOing things are not FOR your salvation."

                              And no one said anything about serving to be saved.

                              As for "Get saved and serve!" why don't you flesh that out for me?

                              What is "serving?"

                              Serving God?

                              Serving each other?

                              Serving ourselves?

                              Serving the Church?

                              Serving the poor?

                              Serving prisoners?

                              Serving the least of these?

                              Pray tell!

                              Brother John asked "what determines whether one is a Christian, or not?" and you made a list that has NOTHING to do with salvation so throwing in the "DOing things are not FOR your salvation." won't work for you unless you are now retracting what you initially said.

                              The truth of the matter is, you can not tell if a person is saved by what they do since salvation is not based upon anything that we DO! There's a whole lot of "moral" people around that are religious, but lost! Are you one of them?
                              2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                              Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                              Comment


                              • The testimony that a Christian would confess their sins is an indicator that one does not believe they are all forgiven!

                                Colossians 2:13 KJV

                                To believe the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth is to believe that when "Christ died for our sins" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), He died for them all!

                                They are gone! Colossians 2:10-13 KJV
                                2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                                Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                                Comment

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