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Ryan Mullins, Timelessness and God: Pt. 3

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  • Ryan Mullins, Timelessness and God: Pt. 3

    Ryan Mullins, Timelessess and God: Pt. 3


    This is the show from Friday, April 3rd, 2020


    SUMMARY:




    COVID Notice
    : Just fyi, this link to Bob Enyart's cellular animation
    and virus sermon will be removed from this page on 4/11.


    Real Science Radio host Bob Enyart concludes his interview with Ryan Mullins, theologian and author of the Oxford Studies title, The End of the Timeless God. Again, more than 700 pages on the websites of the big creation ministries (CMI, AiG, CRS, ICR) use the phrase "God and time". (You can verify that with this the time-saving customized Google tool atop rsr.org to simultaneously search the big creation groups.) The guys also discuss the nearly ubiquitous and utterly damaging doctine of Divine Simplicity, which, if true, would prohibit even the very triune nature of God. (And as our producer Dominic Enyart asks, If Divine Similicity were true, what's the point of learning more about God?) Research fellow at Scotland's University of St. Andrews, Dr. Mullins has published groundbreaking work on the topic of God's relationship to time. Bob read and highly recommends Mullin's book. And we invite you to browse our own titles and check out "God and time" resources at our own store.kgov.com! And make sure to hear Part 1 and Part 2 beginning at rsr.org/mullins and our series with Dr. Richard Holland on his book, God, Time and the Incarnation!


    Today's Resource: Open Theism Seminar





    Open theism seminar with Bob Enyart on three DVDs!


    BEL January 2007 Seminar Indianapolis, IN


    Another fantastic BEL seminar, this time, on the topic of Open Theism, answering the question, is the future settled or open? The Open View teaches that God can change the future. He interacts with the flow of history and changes the outcome of the future as it unfolds by His decisions and actions.
    WARNING: Graphic video here.

  • #2
    Simplicity doesn't mean what he thinks it means. It means that God is Spirit, not physical. It means that all of everything is contained 'in' God, not outside of Him with nothing outside of Him. It is not only Biblically given, it is logically necessary. I realize without a PhD behind my name this counts for little, but I do have an MA. Its worth listening.

    Second, though I'll never convince an Open Theist on my near invisible status, God is timeless specifically because He is Spirit. Hebrews 11:3 By faith, we believe God made things seen from things unseen.
    Necessarily, Time is a measure and God is measureless lest you create a finite God in your concept.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      Simplicity doesn't mean what he thinks it means. It means that God is Spirit, not physical.
      And?

      It means that all of everything is contained 'in' God,
      Is sin "contained 'in' God"? A yes or no will suffice.

      not outside of Him with nothing outside of Him. It is not only Biblically given, it is logically necessary. I realize without a PhD behind my name this counts for little, but I do have an MA. Its worth listening.

      Second, though I'll never convince an Open Theist on my near invisible status,


      God is timeless
      Saying it doesn't make it so, and the Bible says the opposite.

      specifically because He is Spirit.
      What is it about "Spirit" that makes anything that is that "timeless"?

      Hebrews 11:3 By faith, we believe God made things seen from things unseen.
      Which does not therefore mean that God is timeless. It doesn't follow.

      Time is a prerequisite of action. Creation was an action done by God. You can't even logically describe how God created time, because it's not possible to do so.

      God is not the author of confusion, yet trying to explain how God is timeless has left many confused.

      God is rational, and so that which He does is also rational. Which means that God cannot do that which is irrational, such as creating time, which would mean there was a change, a before and an after, which implies sequence, and sequence can only occur in the context of time existing, and therefore God did not create time, because in order to do so, time must first exist.

      Rather, time is simply an aspect of God's existence.

      Necessarily, Time is a measure
      No, it's not.

      Time is simply duration.

      A CLOCK is a measure, be it rotations of a planet or hands on an analogue alarm clock. Those are finite, but time, because it is an aspect of God's existence, has existed forever, and was not (and could not be) created.

      and God is measureless lest you create a finite God in your concept.

      If God indeed were atemporal and could experience no sequence and hence, no change, He could never decide to create time, nor could He ever move from a decision to the actual act of creating time. If such an irrationality were plausible, God would have had to always have created time, and all of creation, from eternity past. Yet this is all gibberish. Further, because time does exist, even if that time had been created, an atemporal deity who experiences no succession and no change in His knowledge could therefore only know Himself as co-existing with time. Thus for theologians to say that God exists apart from time would be positing something of Him that He Himself could not know. Instead, the simple truth is that a timeless deity could not create time and does not exist.


      Excerpt from https://kgov.com/time

      The greatest argument against the atemporality of God is the incarnation, because God BECAME (He changed) a man, whereas before He was NOT a man.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Lon View Post
        Simplicity doesn't mean what he thinks it means. It means that God is Spirit, not physical. It means that all of everything is contained 'in' God, not outside of Him with nothing outside of Him. It is not only Biblically given, it is logically necessary. I realize without a PhD behind my name this counts for little, but I do have an MA. Its worth listening.

        Second, though I'll never convince an Open Theist on my near invisible status, God is timeless specifically because He is Spirit. Hebrews 11:3 By faith, we believe God made things seen from things unseen.
        Necessarily, Time is a measure and God is measureless lest you create a finite God in your concept.
        This is all Calvinist ever do! They make bald claims and declare how their unsupported claim is logically necessary, while prefacing their comments with a fallacious appeal to authority.

        What they NEVER do is provide the proof - the logical proof. They never ever make the actual argument that demonstrates the necessity of their claim.

        They also NEVER respond with any counter argument to the dozens of actual arguments that Open Theists make against such oxymoronic ideas as timeless existence as well as all manner of Calvinists distinctives.

        All they are capable of, is looking down their noses at ideas withwhich they disagree and, in the case of Lon, make every mention of their college education that they can find opportunity for.

        You want to convince me, Lon. All it takes is one single thing and one thing only. A rationally sound ARGUMENT! An argument that you are incapable of making and which you'd be unwilling to make if you were capable.



        And no, Bob is not at all wrong about what Divine Simplicity means. Here it is from someone who is not only a "Doctor of Philosophy" because he has a PhD but because he actually has a PhD IN PHILOSOPHY and was a tenured Associate Professor of Philosophy for many years at more than one university. (That only matters because you brought up the issue of one's education while trying to tell us all the Bob had it wrong on the basis of your own education - or lack thereof - I can't really tell which was your point.)
        .
        "According to the classical theism of Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas and their adherents, God is radically unlike creatures and cannot be adequately understood in ways appropriate to them. God is simple in that God transcends every form of complexity and composition familiar to the discursive intellect. One consequence is that the simple God lacks parts. This lack is not a deficiency but a positive feature. God is ontologically superior to every partite entity, and his partlessness is an index thereof. Broadly construed, ‘part’ covers not only spatial and temporal parts (if any) but also metaphysical ‘parts’ or ontological constituents. To say that God lacks metaphysical parts is to say inter alia that God is free of matter-form composition, potency-act composition, and existence-essence composition. There is also no real distinction between God as subject of his attributes and his attributes. God is thus in some sense identical to each of his attributes, which implies that each attribute is identical to every other one." - by William F. Vallicella - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy



        In short, your pantheistic nonsense has basically nothing to do with Divine Simplicity.

        Clete


        P.S. Jesus Christ is God IN THE FLESH! He gained a human body when He BECAME a man and remains a man with a glorified PHYSICAL body to this day and forever more. To deny that God is physical is to deny the gospel, the very core of the Christian faith.

        How many different ways are there to dismantel seemingly every word this man says? Why would anyone believe a syllable of it?
        Last edited by Clete; April 9th, 2020, 05:58 AM.
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Clete View Post
          How many different ways are there to dismantel seemingly every word this man says?
          Yours makes two in this thread alone!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

            Yours makes two in this thread alone!
            He nor you did. I realize the stakes are high. He's on ignore because he is never capable, let alone worth my time. Look at your next attaboys for Clete: He's incapable. Backpatting ignorance isn't a noble quality. We've simply got to do better. He makes outlandish statements that are completely wrong. I could prove it, but the guy cannot carry a conversation before he starts flaming out. If you want him for your guru, that's a choice you have to own all by yourselves. He is limited in his ability. Worse? I don't believe he does daily devotions and it shows. How can someone love the Savior without spending time daily with Him? He's mean spirited, simple and thin in his presentation and resorts to names when he cannot win. You and I have a better history so I'm pleased to carry this and answer your questions.

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

            And?
            It was literally the next line.



            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Is sin "contained 'in' God"? A yes or no will suffice.
            Lost in details. Sin is a privation, a no-thing, not a thing. It is a warping of Him. You have to be careful or you have God the product of the material universe rather than vice versa. Enyart often argues for a physical God, not spirit. I don't believe he knows this or he'd stop. Process Theology borrows from Mormonism and has a God who 'became' God. Open Theism is dangerously close to Process Theology and Mormonism, but I believe it honestly tries to distance. It is why I engaged the thread: I just want Open Theists to think through their own position and distance both from Mormonism and Process Theology.



            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            You know me, but Enyart et al do not. I'd not think they'd engage here at all, but I'd hope at least for a read.



            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Saying it doesn't make it so, and the Bible says the opposite.
            Well, he said/she said at that point. Let me take "sour grapes" from Isaiah for instance: It was a song. Of Isaiah. He says it is his song to liken how Israel has turned. It isn't that he was disillusioned with Israel as much as comparing how well God took care of them and then 'this' (sorry state of people) is what He gets in return. Even with the inevitable disagreement, it simply is true. At the very least, this passage is moot because of the strong disagreement. It certainly does not prove the OV premise (we may need an Open Theism IV).



            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            What is it about "Spirit" that makes anything that is that "timeless"?
            Great question and I'll do my best: Time is a measurement. You have to have something physical to measure anything. What, for instance, is the measurement of Spirit? How 'big' is God? Anwer: Doesn't apply. Same here: Acts 17:28 If God moved, something is 'bigger' than Him and He is no longer God, but the product of another eternal.



            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Which does not therefore mean that God is timeless. It doesn't follow.
            Hebrews 11:3 says that God made the physical universe, and it came from Spirit. It means before there was anything physical, at all, God existed in some other way. Further, He has never not existed. The only way to describe this is to say "God's past is 'still going.' Why, necessarily? Because it has no beginning. It is beyond our ability to understand God's nonbeginning in any sense of time. Enyart (Clete also) insists that time moves forward alone. He is correct which is 'why' time doesn't and cannot apply to God. Both have asserted time is eternal, but in the next insistence, time is relegated away from God and our ability to discuss God's eternal non-beginning. "Beginning" is part of our definition of time: a place to start. God is already beyond that with 'non-beginning.'

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Time is a prerequisite of action. Creation was an action done by God. You can't even logically describe how God created time, because it's not possible to do so.
            No. Time is a requisite for 'physical' action. Hebrews 11:3 Acts 17:28 Colossians 1:17 John 15:5 These talk of our movement 'within' God. When God is Omnipresent, it is spiritual, not just physical. Spirit is somehow apart from His creation. God as holy, means He is apart from His creation Psalm 95:3-7 It means God is in everything, but everthing we see is only a little portion of God. Pantheism is wrong because all that exists is all that God is, in this physical world. Panentheism is rather that God is in everything, but everything isn't God, similarly to God is Love 1 John 4:8 but it doesn't stand that Love is God, because all we know about love is finite, thus Love is God isn't reciprocal.

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            God is not the author of confusion, yet trying to explain how God is timeless has left many confused.
            Try not to take the OT mantra too far: Isaiah 55:8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. 9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. God explains Himself, but we are not yet at 1 John 3:2 We may certainly be in-the-dark and such can confuse even thought God is not the Author of that confusion. Someone might say to me: "Don't do Algebra or quantum physics, it is too confusing and God is not the author of confusion."

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            God is rational, and so that which He does is also rational.
            Whose rationality? Your's? Clete's? When I disagree am I being 'irrational?' How about when you or I don't get Quantum Physics? Often, when an Open Theist says this, they are revealing the limits of their own cognitive ability. It isn't bad, because I'm not all that brilliant either. God's ways are unsearchable. Rather, I gauge where I am on the intelligence scale and where others are (part of both of my degrees), then explain what I can and also acquiesce where God's ways are indeed higher than you, he/she, or I.

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Which means that God cannot do that which is irrational, such as creating time, which would mean there was a change, a before and an after, which implies sequence, and sequence can only occur in the context of time existing, and therefore God did not create time, because in order to do so, time must first exist.
            I realize, simplistically, this makes sense, but it isn't correct. I've shown above God already escapes our logical understanding of duration, so much so, that 'by faith, we believe God created that which is seen (physical universe) from what is unseen (out of nothing, ex nihilo).

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Rather, time is simply an aspect of God's existence.
            An eternal non-beginning already is opposed to this assertion. Read the link above. There are philosophical (logical) and scriptural givens there.



            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            No, it's not.

            Time is simply duration.
            Which is a measurement.

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            A CLOCK is a measure, be it rotations of a planet or hands on an analogue alarm clock. Those are finite, but time, because it is an aspect of God's existence, has existed forever, and was not (and could not be) created.
            All artificial man-made implements to try and make (man-made) meaning of duration, space, temperature, etc. We all agree on them, except the U.S. We've resisted the metric system.



            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            BOX]If God indeed were atemporal and could experience no sequence and hence, no change, He could never decide to create time, nor could He ever move from a decision to the actual act of creating time. If such an irrationality were plausible, God would have had to always have created time, and all of creation, from eternity past. Yet this is all gibberish. Further, because time does exist, even if that time had been created, an atemporal deity who experiences no succession and no change in His knowledge could therefore only know Himself as co-existing with time. Thus for theologians to say that God exists apart from time would be positing something of Him that He Himself could not know. Instead, the simple truth is that a timeless deity could not create time and does not exist.[/BOX]
            Excerpt from https://kgov.com/time
            I've heard this, but it is incorrect. It is merely a simplistic assertion from one's own limitation in thinking critically. I've empathy but this is simply an assertion from lack.

            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            The greatest argument against the atemporality of God is the incarnation, because God BECAME (He changed) a man, whereas before He was NOT a man.
            "Panentheism," not pantheism. HUGE difference.
            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

            ? Yep

            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lon View Post

              He nor you did.
              Too bad for you that the thread is all still here for anyone to read!

              I realize the stakes are high. He's on ignore because he is never capable, let alone worth my time. Look at your next attaboys for Clete: He's incapable. Backpatting ignorance isn't a noble quality.
              You're nothing but a hypocritical liar. There was no back biting in my post whatsoever. I did, what you NEVER EVER do! I made an actual argument. An argument that you are neither capable nor willing to make any attempt whatsoever to refute.

              We've simply got to do better.
              Got a mouse in your pocket?

              He makes outlandish statements that are completely wrong.
              Saying it doesn't make it so, Lon! Make the argument or keep your baseless accusations to yourself.

              I could prove it, but the guy cannot carry a conversation before he starts flaming out.
              Two demonstrable lies in a row!

              You can neither prove it, nor do I do anything other than respond to substantive arguments with the same.

              If you want him for your guru, that's a choice you have to own all by yourselves.
              I'm not anyone's guru and you knew that when you wrote this intentionally insulting nonsense.

              Hypocrite!

              He is limited in his ability.
              More baseless hypocritical insults from the man who whines and cries about me being insulting when I DO have basis for it!

              Worse? I don't believe he does daily devotions and it shows.
              Wrong again!

              I spend multiple hours (at least three full hours) a week listening to sermons in my truck and I read the bible every single solitary day. I get a kick out of seeing how long I can keep a streak going on the You Version bible app which I really started using consistently only about a year, maybe a year and half ago. I used to read at least one chapter, usually more like three for four chapters, in the evenings before bed but I've switched it to doing it in the mornings because I stayed up too late one night and because I read the bible about ten minutes after midnight, the app killed my streak! So, officially, my current streak is 103 consecutive days of bible reading but I'm actually about ten minutes shy of 204 consecutive days and I'm shooting for a full 365. Not that steaks mean anything in particular but having the goal helps build and maintain good habits.

              I've read through the entire bible, I don't know how many times and have made a hand written copy of Romans through Philemon. I've never preached a sermon but I have taught Sunday School classes, which I can't say that I enjoy too much. And then there's the tens of thousands of hours I've spend on this website writing out the actual arguments for probably every point of doctrine I believe. I spend more time defending what I believe on this website than you spend at church absorbing whatever mindless drivel is flowing from the pulpit that turns God into the immutable stone idol that Aristotle worshiped.

              How can someone love the Savior without spending time daily with Him?
              He cannot!
              A thirst for God's word is a key sign in any new Christian as to whether his conversion is real and a desire to know the truth that overrides one's desire to be a member of any particular group of believers (i.e. the truth over doctrinal belief) is the hallmark of any true man of God, as is a revulsion against stupidity, blasphemy and all forms of blatant ungodliness.

              He's mean spirited, simple and thin in his presentation and resorts to names when he cannot win.
              It's just laughable the degree to which the hypocrisy is invisible to this idiot!

              You and I have a better history so I'm pleased to carry this and answer your questions.
              Don't worry Lon!

              I despise you more than you do me. At least I'm not a hypocrite and my doctrine isn't blasphemy.

              Clete
              Last edited by Clete; April 12th, 2020, 03:39 PM.
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lon View Post

                No. Time is a requisite for 'physical' action. Hebrews 11:3 Acts 17:28 Colossians 1:17 John 15:5 These talk of our movement 'within' God. When God is Omnipresent, it is spiritual, not just physical. Spirit is somehow apart from His creation. God as holy, means He is apart from His creation Psalm 95:3-7 It means God is in everything, but everthing we see is only a little portion of God.

                kinda like asking
                what time is it with God right now ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                  kinda like asking
                  what time is it with God right now ?
                  Yes. It doesn't make sense.
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                    kinda like asking
                    what time is it with God right now ?
                    Why would it be any different time for God "right now" as it is for you?

                    Are you talking about the numbers on the clock on your wall or are you talking about time?
                    sigpic
                    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lon View Post

                      Yes. It doesn't make sense.
                      Do you mean logical sense?

                      I thought you were against the use of logic in this manner.
                      sigpic
                      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Clete View Post

                        Why would it be any different time for God "right now" as it is for you?
                        God is spirit , no physical laws

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I've yet to see ANYONE give an answer for the fact that God chose in His infinite wisdom to state, in the very first verse of Scripture: "In the beginning...". Obviously: there could NOT have been a beginning if time were eternal. He started the clock the moment He began creation. He invented time. He started time when He created light.
                          "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                          If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

                            God is spirit , no physical laws
                            Time is not physical. Time is an idea. It's a convention of language used to convey information related to the duration and sequence of events. You cannot exist without duration and thus God experience time - by definition. Further, God exists now, as does everything else that exists. Neither the past nor the future exist except as memories or ideas.

                            Clete
                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                              I've yet to see ANYONE give an answer for the fact that God chose in His infinite wisdom to state, in the very first verse of Scripture: "In the beginning...". Obviously: there could NOT have been a beginning if time were eternal. He started the clock the moment He began creation. He invented time. He started time when He created light.
                              This is called an argument from silence. It's a fallacy for a reason.

                              You can ask "In the beginning of what?", and you can use your doctrine to answer it if you like but don't kid yourself into thinking that it's anything more than a pretext rather than any sort of proof. In other words, your doctrine informs your reading of the text rather than the text informing your doctrine. A practice which is rampant throughout the church and in Calvinists circles in particular, by the way.

                              The context makes it perfectly clear that its talking about the beginning of creation not of God Himself because while creation had a beginning God did not.

                              Clete
                              sigpic
                              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                              Comment

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