Chris- I AM the standard, God is the Problem

[Jefferson]

Chris- I AM the standard, God is the Problem

This is the show from Tuesday November 4th, 2008.

SUMMARY:

* Chris from Littleton: calls in to defend Barack Obama. Bob asks him to identify his standard, and Chris reveals that it is he, himself. And worse, he then indicts God as the problem. Chris denies that God instilled a conscience in us, and argues that right and wrong come from our parents, but then admits that societies with their parents' morals can in fact be wrong, and thus Chris himself disproves his own claim, showing that the standard of right and wrong cannot be based upon our upbringing. Bob finally presented Chris with the heart of evolution argument, demonstrating from a single bodily function, the circulatory system, that random changes collected by natural selection cannot possibly create a centralized pump with separate chambers, hooked up to a system of pipes (veins and arteries).

* Enyart Predictions on Obama Presidency: Fred Barnes predicts in today's Wall Street Journal that under Barack Obama we will get "massive spending programs," "the Fairness Doctrine to stifle conservative talk radio, liberal judicial nominees... retreat from Iraq," and "talks with Iran." Bob points out that with Republicans, and especially with McCain, we get massive spending programs and liberal judges, and Bob predicts that Obama will NOT bring about the Fairness Doctrine, nor will he retreat counterproductively from Iraq (Bush himself signed an Iraqi agreement for a full pull-out), nor abandon the war on terror, nor talk with Iran. Of course Bob is not a prophet. These are just predictions from his perspective which is not clouded by fear of the bogyman, nor allegiance to the increasingly godless Republican Party.

* TWICE Extraordinary Post-show Update: Now there are TWO! Doug Phillip's widely-influential Vision Forum has come out with a warning about John McCain's pro-abortion record and a rebuke of National RTL falsely representing McCain as a defender of unborn children. And now, they've published a sequel, taking to task the pro-life journalist Steven Ertelt, long-known for outright fabrication of pro-Republican news. "We agree with the National Right to Life Committee's conclusion of eight years ago - a position that they have now suppressed due to political expediency - that 'John McCain Threatens the Pro-Life Cause.'" True. Bob Enyart Live thanks Doug Phillips and report authors Wesley Strackbein and Bob Renaud.

* UK Media Picture of the Day from ARTL: Did you see this great photo of American RTL's sign on the mountain condemning the DNC?

* See this Extraordinary Personhood TV Ad: There is a fire in a clinic. See what happens next...

* Joe the Plumber Says Alan Keyes Can Fix US: Again, listen to the audio of Joe from Ohio saying that Alan Keyes could fix this country in two years, and see the AP video!

* American RTL Action Presidential Voter's Guide: about McCain's pro-abortion record is perfect for emailing to a friend for the election!

* Other Interviews including:
- Los Angeles: Gregg Jackson's interview of Alan Keyes and John Haskins (must-listen radio)
- NPR: Bob Enyart on National Public Radio's All Things Considered exposing pro-abortion Romney: 4-minute audio, transcript
- Des Moines: Steven Deace's interview of David Barton about the current election
- 14 Swedish editorial writers at Denver's historic Brown Palace with Bob Enyart and friends defending personhood (articles so far: Kristianstadsbladet; Allehanda)
- The Al Jazeera (of all things) English-language network out of Washington D.C. sent a reporter and cameraman to Denver Bible Church as part of a report on Colorado's personhood amendment; see http://Aljezeera.net/English tomorrow, Wed. Oct. 29 at noon
- See Bob Enyart's of Amendment 48
- The BBC's two-hour TV interview last week with Brian Rohrbough, [url=http://americanrighttolife.org/us]president of American RTL; stay tuned to KGOV to find out about any resultant BBC report.

* Focus II: An organization at the domain name "AndThenYouCanKillTheBaby.com" doesn't want you to see the groundbreaking DVD, Focus on the Strategy II. You may want to check it out anyway!

Today's Resource: Have you seen the Government Department at our KGOV Store? We are featuring Bruce Shortt's vitally-important book, The Harsh Truth about Public Schools. And also, check out the classic God's Criminal Justice System seminar, God and the Death Penalty, Live from Las Vegas, and Bob on Drugs DVDs, and our powerhouse Focus on the Strategy resources! And if you subscribe to the BEL Televised Classics, you will see this debate on TV, since it is one of the many extraordinary programs that come to your home on DVD when you subscribe!

 

[Nick M]

Chris- I AM the standard, God is the Problem

This is the show from Tuesday November 4th, 2008.

* Enyart Predictions on Obama Presidency: Fred Barnes predicts in today's Wall Street Journal that under Barack Obama we will get "massive spending programs," "the Fairness Doctrine to stifle conservative talk radio, liberal judicial nominees... retreat from Iraq," and "talks with Iran." Bob points out that with Republicans, and especially with McCain, we get massive spending programs and liberal judges, and Bob predicts that Obama will NOT bring about n the Fairness Doctrine, nor will he retreat from Iraq, nor talk with Iran. Of course Bob is not a prophet. These are just predictions from his perspective which is not clouded by fear of the bogyman, nor allegiance to the increasingly godless Republican Party.

:up:

At least we don't don't have to watch troubling economic stories in the news. They get shuffled to the back page. That will bring up consumer confidence.

 

[Jukia]

Rats, now I have to listen to it to hear Pastor Bob's expertise on the evolution (or lack thereof) of the circulatory system.
Just listened to it, more of Pastor Bob's arguments from incredulity with respect to the circulatory system. Fish have 2 chambered hearts, reptiles and amphibians 3 chambered and mammals and birds 4 chambered hearts. Looks like a nice evolutionary progression doesn't it?
If he has any citations to the scientific literature concerning his claim that antibiotic resistent bacteria are less efficient than the non-resistent ones perhaps he can post that info here.

 

[chatmaggot]

Rats, now I have to listen to it to hear Pastor Bob's expertise on the evolution (or lack thereof) of the circulatory system.
Just listened to it, more of Pastor Bob's arguments from incredulity with respect to the circulatory system. Fish have 2 chambered hearts, reptiles and amphibians 3 chambered and mammals and birds 4 chambered hearts. Looks like a nice evolutionary progression doesn't it?
If he has any citations to the scientific literature concerning his claim that antibiotic resistent bacteria are less efficient than the non-resistent ones perhaps he can post that info here.

If he has any citations to the scientific literature concerning his claim that antibiotic resistent bacteria are less efficient than the non-resistent ones perhaps he can post that info here.

Although it might not be the norm...it seems that it isn't uncommon.

The first example is somewhat ironic. It is on the website New Mexicans for Science and Reason website. They are a group that have fought and debated with creationist for a long time.

They have an article in which they attempt to refute a claim of creationists but in the process make the following statement:

My favorite example of a mutation producing new information involves a Japanese bacterium that suffered a frame shift mutation that just happened to allow it to metabolize nylon waste. The new enzymes are very inefficient (having only 2% of the efficiency of the regular enzymes), but do afford the bacteria a whole new ecological niche.

Do you disagree with NMSR?

Also, on the New Scientist website it says:

Some antibiotics...kill bacteria by attacking the essential protein-producing machines called ribosomes. Bacteria become resistant to streptomycin when a mutation in the ribosome-encoding genes alters the shape of the ribosome and prevents the antibiotic finding its target.

But resistance comes at a cost. The mutated ribosomes are generally less efficient,...

Since the sensitive bacteria are still healthier than the doubly mutant strains, even if only slightly, resistance would probably disappear eventually

Not sure if these examples address your comment, but I thought that they were interesting.

Also, I read the available pages found on google books (here)

It discusses a mutation in an enzyme of E. coli resulting in it being less efficient as a result of requiring more energy to perform certain actions than non-mutated forms.

So, it seems that Bob's statement is true...just not necessarily the norm.

 

[Bob Enyart]

Jukia dodges the issue; why not describe 2-chamber evolution?

Jukia dodges the issue; why not describe 2-chamber evolution?

Regarding

...Bob's expertise on the evolution (or lack thereof) of the circulatory system. Just listened to it, more of Pastor Bob's arguments from incredulity with respect to the circulatory system.

Jukia, is that as compared to your infinite credulity?

And here's the complete dodge:

Fish have 2 chambered hearts, reptiles and amphibians 3 chambered and mammals and birds 4 chambered hearts.

First, an illustration of the dodge: compare this superficiality to the example from horse toes showing in the famed horse chart a supposed evolutionary pattern from 4 toes to 3, then to weak lateral toes, to a single toe; yet in the same horses, respectively, the number of ribs go from 18, down to 15, up to 19, and back to 18. Why not arrange the chart accoording to ribs? Because then the order of the animals wouldn't go from small to large and so evolution books would confuse readers.

Now, the dodge itself: So Jukia, rather than dodge the issue with varying numbers of heart chambers in animal groups, why don't you give yourself a break and answer this challenge for your easiest case, the two-chambered heart? Just provide a high-level algorithm, the sequence of steps that would evolve a centralized pump hooked up to a plumbing system, that would appear out of non-directed, Darwinian mechanisms and then step-by-step naturally selected. Of course I'm not asking for details. Just a very high level description of how this process could take place.

Jukia, you can do this the way cosmologists describe the supposed evolution of a star! Of course, in Richard Larson's classic theory the stellar formation begins at a point where the hypothetical nebula condensation is already well under way. Oops. So Jukia, try to avoid that blunder in describing, at a very high level, how a circulatory system could assemble itself via mutation and natural selection. Oh yeah, and while you're at it, since it would not be helpful to circulate unoxygenated blood, make sure you interface the lung's role in your high-level outline of how the circulatory system could evolve.

-Bob Enyart

 

[Bob Enyart]

Index Horses by Toes or Ribs? You Report, We Decide...

Index Horses by Toes or Ribs? You Report, We Decide...

Notes on horse evolution (from AL the 6th, Bob's notebook PC)

Great paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson: students have been misinformed about the evolution of the horse. In his book, Major Features of Evolution, Columbia University Press, New York, 1953, p. 259

The horse is typically shown evolving from four toes on the front feet, through three toed varieties, to weak laterals, to the one-toed modern horse.

[Enyart comment: While horse toes in the supposed evolutionary pattern go from 4 to 3, and to weak lateral toes, to 1 toe in the famed horse chart, the ribs in those same animals go respectively from 18, down to 15, up to 19, and back to 18. Not nearly as clean a picture as the evolutionists want to paint. In their charts, why don’t they show the ribs, instead of the toes?]

The hind feet of South American hoofed animals appear in the strata in a different order.

In South America, the three-toed Diadiaphorus with weak laterals, and the one-toed Thoatherium, were found in the oldest strata. Both found in strata that supposedly formed 25 million years ago.

The Macrauchenia, full three toes, is not found until a supposed 13 million years later.

In the southern hemisphere, toilets flush with whirlpools that spin in the opposite direction.

So perhaps evolution there also flowed in the opposite direction, with horse toes evolving in reverse order.

Regarding the popular horse evolution chart, two have significantly different teeth:

Miohippus (3 toes) has browsing teeth
Merychippus, (3 toes) has high-crowned grazing teeth

In Oregon, they find 3-toed and 1-toed fossils together in the same strata.

The dog-sized Eohippus was first found in Europe, and named Hyracotherium, for the hyrax, or rodents, it closely resembled, which anciently were known to grow very large.

The hyrax has four toes on the front legs and three in back, as does Eohippus.

Eohippus is far more like hyrax than like a horse. The cheek teeth of Eohippus and hyrax are similar and are unlike horse teeth.

George Gaylord Simpson said that Eohippus is as close to a rhinoceros as it is to a horse. 1945 quoted by G. A. Kerkut, Implications of Evolution, Pergamon Press, New York, 1960, p. 149

 

[Bob Enyart]

Resistance is futile...

Resistance is futile...

For folks who get easily snowed by evolutionists regarding bacterial resistance, here are a few things to remember.

Take a particular bacteria that causes tuberculosis or some other ailment, and kill millions of them with an antibiotic like Streptomycin. Scientists find that a new strain of the bacteria may appear, genetically altered from the original. And this strain can survive treatment by that antibiotic. Streptomycin for example kills tuberculosis and many other bacteria. How? Well, bacteria use ribosomes to process nutrients. Streptomycin has a particular shape that enables it to lock onto the ribosome, which leads to the death (rather than the reproduction) of the bacteria.

Creationists like Lee Spetner point out that mutations will break organisms, like a mutated child born lame or without a limb. Bacteria experience mutations and their mutations also break things down.
But sometimes things break down in a very handy way.

Imagine that the bacteria mutated and put a blockage in its 'mouth' so to speak. That is, it’s ribosomes are no longer as well designed to process nutrients. They can still process energy for survival, but not as efficiently. Then, a streptomycin floats by, and attempts to attach to the ribosome. But it cannot. Because there is a blockage in the 'mouth,' that is, it is shaped differently because it mutated, that is, it broke. This is the new bacterial strain. It hasn’t improved or advanced. It's broken.

But the break was convenient. But has it evolved? No. It hasn’t increased its information content, nor become more sophisticated.
It has a growth. A blockage. It was a fortuitous bit of bad luck at the right time.

It’s like if a fire broke out in your home. And at the same time, an old rusty pipe burst. The flood put out the fire. The fire is out, and the coincidence was helpful. But no, your house did not evolve, it did not improve, it did not advance.

These drug-resistant strains, understood at the microbiological level, do not show Darwin at work. (Darwin's dead, btw; and what's more, as with billions of other decaying animals, there was no abiogenesis out of the billion decaying cells in his corpse).

The process described above illustrates some of the ways that resistant strains develop.

This, and many other brilliant observations, appear in the book, Not by Chance by Dr. Lee Spetner, PhD, with the Applied Physics Laboratory at Johns Hopkins University and in Hopkins’ biophysics department; degree in physics from MIT, who earned his place in genetic history by being the first to publish mutations rates of different organisms.

I recommend the book. It's cool.

-Bob Enyart

 

[Toast]

Interesting about the bacteria.

 

[Jefferson]

Um...Jukia?

 

[Jukia]

Uh Jefferson/Pastor Bob since I have such a great feeling for Pastor Bob's understanding of science, which seems to be, "Gee, we/I don't understand this, so Goddidit", I'll pass.
I do thank Pastor Bob for opening my eyes to the silliness of Christian fundamentalist takes on science. Especially his appreciation for Walt Brown.
Thanks guys.

 

[chickenman]

Jukia,

If you had no interest in the challenge, then why make an initial opposition post? I remember in high school, there was a kid who acted tough toward some "nerds" because they looked weaker than him. When a nerd stood up to him, he showed his true colors and ran scared.

Don't be a fake tough guy, Jukia. Stand your ground, or don't pick on someone just because you think they won't fight back.

 

[Jukia]

Jukia,

If you had no interest in the challenge, then why make an initial opposition post? I remember in high school, there was a kid who acted tough toward some "nerds" because they looked weaker than him. When a nerd stood up to him, he showed his true colors and ran scared.

Don't be a fake tough guy, Jukia. Stand your ground, or don't pick on someone just because you think they won't fight back.

Nope, been there, done that. I called him on the manganese nodules thread quite sometime ago. I know how he plays his game.

 

[chickenman]

You shouldn't have played tough guy in the first place, then.

 

[Jukia]

You shouldn't have played tough guy in the first place, then.

Be better if Pastor Bob did not step outside of his own box and/or misrepresent things as they are.

 

[Town Heretic]

Uh Jefferson/Pastor Bob since I have such a great feeling for Pastor Bob's understanding of science, which seems to be, "Gee, we/I don't understand this, so Goddidit", I'll pass.
I do thank Pastor Bob for opening my eyes to the silliness of Christian fundamentalist takes on science. Especially his appreciation for Walt Brown.
Thanks guys.

So it's naturedidit instead then. lain:

There's nothing like a little reasoned discourse...:thumb: Why bother debating factual information when a slogan will do?

Nope, been there, done that.

You're just a veritable fountain of these things, aren't you?

I called him on the manganese nodules thread quite sometime ago. I know how he plays his game.

Do you have any idea how often I've met the same, tired show pony Atheist arguments in this or that thread? Either a battle is worth fighting and you fight it or it isn't and you don't. What you did here only hurts your cause. You can't assume most people who stumble across this thread will have any idea about your experience or work elsewhere. I certainly didn't see it and I get around a bit here.

To my perspective it seems as though you issued something of a challenge, it was answered and you refused to do more than offer a tired phrase in lieu of reasoned discourse. The real question left unanswered in this is why you would even begin a dialogue you don't mean to finish.

Oh well.

 

[chickenman]

Bingo, TH.

 

[chatmaggot]

Nope, been there, done that. I called him on the manganese nodules thread quite sometime ago. I know how he plays his game.

Do you not want to play with the New Mexicans for Science and Reason either?

My post used examples not from Bob...but from science literature and anti-creation websites that supported what Bob had said. I guess you don't like playing with anyone.

 

[PlastikBuddha]

Notes on horse evolution (from AL the 6th, Bob's notebook PC)

Great paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson: students have been misinformed about the evolution of the horse. In his book, Major Features of Evolution, Columbia University Press, New York, 1953, p. 259

The horse is typically shown evolving from four toes on the front feet, through three toed varieties, to weak laterals, to the one-toed modern horse.

[Enyart comment: While horse toes in the supposed evolutionary pattern go from 4 to 3, and to weak lateral toes, to 1 toe in the famed horse chart, the ribs in those same animals go respectively from 18, down to 15, up to 19, and back to 18. Not nearly as clean a picture as the evolutionists want to paint. In their charts, why don’t they show the ribs, instead of the toes?]

The hind feet of South American hoofed animals appear in the strata in a different order.

In South America, the three-toed Diadiaphorus with weak laterals, and the one-toed Thoatherium, were found in the oldest strata. Both found in strata that supposedly formed 25 million years ago.

The Macrauchenia, full three toes, is not found until a supposed 13 million years later.

In the southern hemisphere, toilets flush with whirlpools that spin in the opposite direction.

So perhaps evolution there also flowed in the opposite direction, with horse toes evolving in reverse order.

Regarding the popular horse evolution chart, two have significantly different teeth:

Miohippus (3 toes) has browsing teeth
Merychippus, (3 toes) has high-crowned grazing teeth

In Oregon, they find 3-toed and 1-toed fossils together in the same strata.

The dog-sized Eohippus was first found in Europe, and named Hyracotherium, for the hyrax, or rodents, it closely resembled, which anciently were known to grow very large.

The hyrax has four toes on the front legs and three in back, as does Eohippus.

Eohippus is far more like hyrax than like a horse. The cheek teeth of Eohippus and hyrax are similar and are unlike horse teeth.

George Gaylord Simpson said that Eohippus is as close to a rhinoceros as it is to a horse. 1945 quoted by G. A. Kerkut, Implications of Evolution, Pergamon Press, New York, 1960, p. 149

All of this supposes that evolution is believed to be a one-way street. A trait, once acquired (whether that trait is a positive, a new structure or a negative, the subtraction of a structure) can be shuffled in and out of populations, particularly if that trait is not of immediate survival value. They also spread to different populations in different areas at different rates. There is no evolutionary mandate that all existing horses get with the two-toed program post-haste or loose their seats on the horsey express. A disordered, often (from our POV, anways) back-tracking path is what is actually expected by an unguided (except by natural forces) process like evolution. Stephen Jay Gould's book of essays on evolution "Hen's Teeth and Horses's Toes" would be a good source for better information on this than I can offer, however.

 

[Jukia]

All of this supposes that evolution is believed to be a one-way street. A trait, once acquired (whether that trait is a positive, a new structure or a negative, the subtraction of a structure) can be shuffled in and out of populations, particularly if that trait is not of immediate survival value. They also spread to different populations in different areas at different rates. There is no evolutionary mandate that all existing horses get with the two-toed program post-haste or loose their seats on the horsey express. A disordered, often (from our POV, anways) back-tracking path is what is actually expected by an unguided (except by natural forces) process like evolution. Stephen Jay Gould's book of essays on evolution "Hen's Teeth and Horses's Toes" would be a good source for better information on this than I can offer, however.

Good comments PB.
Interesting to note that Pastor Bob seems to use a statement from Simpson from 1945. Wonder if there is any info since then?

 

[Town Heretic]

Good comments PB.
Interesting to note that Pastor Bob seems to use a statement from Simpson from 1945. Wonder if there is any info since then?

Oh...so NOW you're chatty...lain:

The only thing worse than the guy who won't fight is that same guy standing behind someone else and shouting over his shoulder. :nono: