ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Mystery]

I think it is the business of at least an evangelist to be aware of the reconciling work of God in Christ through the Spirit convicting and convincing the lost with whom we are sharing the gospel ... not in an invasive or manipulative way, but at least as co-laboring witnesses. Maybe that old residual Calvinistic thinking is why the Gospel is rarely preached as you put it. Since the lost have nothing to do with their salvation then neither should we. I’m not convinced that is the case.

Neither am I.

We have to trust the Holy Spirit and the gospel to do it's work in their hearts, but of course, if they have questions we should always be ready to share the hope that is in us.

I was under the impression that a surrender of the will was a daily thing for followers of Jesus.

In a sense that is true. We are to die daily, but not to sin. Jesus died to sin, and we died with Him. We are to die to the desire of the flesh. The desire of the flesh is to be justified by works. We need to not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit which is justification by faith in Christ, in what He has done and is doing in us. We cannot live the Christian life, only He can.

Yes, the initial surrender is made in confession and repentance unto salvation. Subsequent surrenders of our will are also necessary for obedience.

Obeying what? Having begun by the Spirit are you going to perfect yourself by the flesh? We are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. You received Jesus by grace through faith, and that is how you are to walk in Him.

Our salvation doesn’t hang in the balance, but our usefulness and fruitfulness in the kingdom of God does.

The way to be useful is to believe what God says about you, and to present your bodies to Him for His purposes. All things are permissable, but not all things are profitable. It makes no sense to do those things that God judges the world for, even though you are no longer under condemnation, you are ineffective if you present your body to something that is of no benefit to anyone.

2Peter 2:8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.​

I think you meant 2 Peter 1:8

In any case, lets look at all of the context...

"Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

Those who are sin conscious are going to be focused on themselves and what they are doing, and will not have their eyes fixed on Jesus (The perfector of their faith). This will leave them paraylized in their knowledge of Christ and ineffective in their ability to be used of God in loving their neighbor. God has given us everything we need and we are complete in Him. When we focus on the flesh for righteousness, we are back under a yoke of slavery, and we tend to demand the same of others. You cannot share the gospel with someone if you are under a yoke of slavery yourself.

 

[godrulz]

He has been open view for as long as I've known. What makes you think he is anything else? Because he believes in eternal security? Most of the OVers here do. You, Philetus and muzicman are the only ones I know who don't.

I remember him questioning about Open Theism like he was open to it, but not convinced of it.

Mid-Acts teaches OSAS. Most Open Theists are free will theists and do not accept this. Mid-Acts is not directly related to OT (I am sure most dispensationalists reject OT). Most Calvinists are OSAS and reject OT. Unconditional eternal security is not germane to Open Theism and is usually considered inconsistent with it due to emphasis on free will before and after conversion.

Do not confuse Plot or Mid-Acts as normative Open Theism. It may be true for Denver Church and TOL, but it is not true for John Sanders, Gregory Boyd, etc., prominent academic OT who are not Mid-Acts (The God who Risks by Sanders specifically argues against OSAS and Mid-Acts assumptions based on his exegesis of Acts and other Scripture).

 

[godrulz]

Congratulations! You have completely killed this thread.

Jesus is God, risen from the dead. He is the Lamb of God, the Redeemer. Faith in His person and work leads to salvation, not works. Grace is the basis for eternal life, not self-righteousness. Jesus died so we may live. His death is a substitute for the penalty of sin. It deals with love and holiness. Jesus is the sinless Savior, born of a virgin by the Spirit. There is no other way to the Father and eternal life except through Him. He is Lord, God, Savior, Redeemer. We cannot save ourselves, etc.

(verses available for points)

 

[godrulz]

Isn't it possible to witness the convicting work of the Spirit in an unbeliever even as he resists it?

I don't think that salvation is maintained as a matter of will either or else the very work of the Spirit is negated. But, will does play a role in both coming and remaining in Christ.

Since you deny unconditional eternal security, you cannot be saved according to Myst. This negates the salvation of the millions of free will theists (Arminians) who reject deterministic Calvinism.

Biblically, salvation is based on receiving vs rejecting Christ, not mental assent to OSAS.

 

[PKevman]

It's as simply as this. You are guilty of sin that you yourself chose to perform. Christ died and redeemed the whole human race from Adam's sin and so no one will be punished for the sin of their father's but your own sin will not be washed away by Christ's blood unless you humble yourself and ask God to do so acknowledging your need for a savior. If you do that then God will quickly forgive you of your sin and you will be declared righteous on the basis of Christ's action on your behalf. But if one fails to do that then God will not apply to sacrifice to their sin and they will be made to pay their own debt - their own SIN debt.

Well said Clete! :up:

 

[PKevman]

Wow this thread has really veered away from the subject of Open Theism it seems.

 

[Mystery]

The whole theme of the Bible is about God providing a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins Lighthouse! How in the world does one get to a point where they cannot see that?

In fact, I am not even going to debate this with you. Its asinine. If you end up in Hell its because of your own sin. If you think otherwise then you need to put on the brakes and say wait just a damn minute. How in the crap did I get so far off track that I could except that God would send anyone to Hell for any other reason other than their own sin? The Bible is not written in some sort of code. It's really easy to understand if you just read it and make even the smallest effort toward staying on the same page as the Author. When you get to a place where your theology is so convoluted and complex that you find yourself arguing about such simple to understand principles, use it as a red flag to signal that something has gone terribly wrong.

It's as simply as this. You are guilty of sin that you yourself chose to perform. Christ died and redeemed the whole human race from Adam's sin and so no one will be punished for the sin of their father's but your own sin will not be washed away by Christ's blood unless you humble yourself and ask God to do so acknowledging your need for a savior. If you do that then God will quickly forgive you of your sin and you will be declared righteous on the basis of Christ's action on your behalf. But if one fails to do that then God will not apply to sacrifice to their sin and they will be made to pay their own debt - their own SIN debt.

That's the gospel and that's it. Take it or leave it. I will not debate it.

That's the biggest load of garbage I have ever heard, and I will debate it, even if you won't.

The whole theme of the Bible is about God providing a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins

No it's not. Jesus did that for a reason, and it wasn't just to forgive us of our sins. He shed His blood to make a way for something much better than just taking away our sins, He did all that He has done in order to give us His life! That is what the whole theme of the bible is about. It's about life, His life!

If you end up in Hell its because of your own sin.

People do not go to hell for sin, they go to hell because they are dead, which is the wages of sin, and everyone is dead because of one man's (Adam's) transgression. Romans 5:15

If you think otherwise then you need to put on the brakes and say wait just a damn minute.

Take your own advice.

The Bible is not written in some sort of code. It's really easy to understand if you just read it and make even the smallest effort toward staying on the same page as the Author.

Then what is your excuse.

You are guilty of sin that you yourself chose to perform.

I sin, and so do you, because you were made a sinner through one man's disobedience.

Romans 5:19

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."

Christ died and redeemed the whole human race from Adam's sin and so no one will be punished for the sin of their father's but your own sin will not be washed away by Christ's blood unless you humble yourself and ask God to do so acknowledging your need for a savior.

The gift of God's grace is not like that which came through Adam's sin, because Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all men, and all men are judged because of one man's sin! The gift of the grace of God (righteousness), results in justification because all men are sinners because of the one man's sin. Jesus not only took away the one transgression that resulted in the death of all men, but he also removed the sin from all men who were made sinners, because of the one man's sin.

The death of Jesus satisfied (propitiated) God's justice for all sin, for all men, for all time. His sacrifice was Once for All (you guys really shouldn't ignore the book of Hebrews). Man's problem is that he is still dead and needs to come to Christ for life. People are not saved by having Jesus die for their sins, they are saved by receiving His life!

Romans 5:10

"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life".

If you do that then God will quickly forgive you of your sin and you will be declared righteous on the basis of Christ's action on your behalf. But if one fails to do that then God will not apply to sacrifice to their sin and they will be made to pay their own debt - their own SIN debt

Confessing (agreeing with God) that we have sin is not what makes us righteous. Righteousness is a gift that we receive when we receive His life, which is also where we find forgiveness.

Romans 5:17

"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

Colossians 1:13-14

"For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Ephesians 1:7

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"

That's the gospel and that's it. Take it or leave it. I will not debate it.

I will leave your gospel, and take the biblical one, and there is no longer any need to debate it, you just heard it.

 

[Philetus]

Neither am I.

We have to trust the Holy Spirit and the gospel to do it's work in their hearts, but of course, if they have questions we should always be ready to share the hope that is in us.

In a sense that is true. We are to die daily, but not to sin. Jesus died to sin, and we died with Him. We are to die to the desire of the flesh. The desire of the flesh is to be justified by works. We need to not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit which is justification by faith in Christ, in what He has done and is doing in us. We cannot live the Christian life, only He can. Obeying what? Having begun by the Spirit are you going to perfect yourself by the flesh? We are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. You received Jesus by grace through faith, and that is how you are to walk in Him. The way to be useful is to believe what God says about you, and to present your bodies to Him for His purposes. All things are permissable, but not all things are profitable. It makes no sense to do those things that God judges the world for, even though you are no longer under condemnation, you are ineffective if you present your body to something that is of no benefit to anyone.



I think you meant 2 Peter 1:8

In any case, lets look at all of the context...

"Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

Those who are sin conscious are going to be focused on themselves and what they are doing, and will not have their eyes fixed on Jesus (The perfector of their faith). This will leave them paraylized in their knowledge of Christ and ineffective in their ability to be used of God in loving their neighbor. God has given us everything we need and we are complete in Him. When we focus on the flesh for righteousness, we are back under a yoke of slavery, and we tend to demand the same of others. You cannot share the gospel with someone if you are under a yoke of slavery yourself.

What is sin if it isn't the desire of the flesh to put self on the throne and not God?

Obeying the Spirit, the Lordship of Jesus ...
Obedience isn't trying to 'perfect ourselves' anymore than believing is saving ourselves.
If we live by the Spirit we will keep in step with the Spirit.

I did mean 2 Peter 1:8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure,

If I understand you I agree that to war against the flesh in the flesh is a futile endeavor and maybe you are also correct that such ‘faith’ isn’t saving faith at all. But that isn’t to say that in Christ we no longer have the old flesh to contend with. In Christ we have the weapons of the Spirit as our arsenal. The war is still on and will be until we stand in His presence in glory. Even Paul said, I have not yet been made perfect. I press on to take hold of that for which Christ has taken hold of me. It is a now and a not yet dynamic we must live with.

I think I understand your point that the focus of our living is no longer sin but Christ. And I agree. Salvation is a done deal! Sin no longer has dominion over us. There is now no condemnation. But the perfecting of our faith is an ongoing process - an open-process producing the maturity of character that reflect His glory and as one translations puts it "character that falls short in nothing". That process will continue as long as we suck air in this life. The presentation of our bodies as living sacrifices opens the way for knowing the will of the one who called us that we might walk in it.

OSAS is nothing more than camouflaged predestination after the fact. I don't believe it any more than I would believe Once Lost Always Lost. Taken together they are no less than just double predestination. You see, I not only reject Calvinism but I reject the framework, categories, and non-issues that it has imposed on the discussion for centuries.

I think that your insistence that Christians give up the war against sin in their own lives is counterproductive to the dynamic faith you champion. In my humble opinion it is given to the letter rather than the Spirit and tends to make the Christian life stagnant rather than a living relationship with a Living God. To say that sin no longer has dominion is not to say that sin no longer exists. For one In Christ, sin no longer holds the eternal consequences it once did. But 'doing bad things', whether by Mother T or Mister T, stills has consequences in this world that affect not only the one doing them but others as well, whether we call it 'sin' in the believer's life or not.

Honestly, Mystery, I think your preoccupation with this issue is something we all struggle with. My discussing it with you isn't to just dismiss it. But, I do think you need to find better ways to say it. I think that is why most (well some) of us are here. Battling against the works of the flesh in our lives isn't the same as trying to be justified by works. You need to quit putting that on everybody. You couldn't live with it. Not in reality.

Mystery: We have to trust the Holy Spirit and the gospel to do it's work in their hearts, but of course, if they have questions we should always be ready to share the hope that is in us.

We have to trust the Holy Spirit and the gospel to do it's work in our own hearts as well. Isn't that, after all, the HOPE we have within us and isn't that what rings true in an unbelievers life when under the convictions of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Philetus]

In regards to how one is saved, yes. However, there is evidence by what one believes, whether or not salvation has actually occured. The gospel is so seldom presented that most people have religious experiences, but have never accepted Christ. I do not believe that someone can be saved and maintain that salvation can be lost. Those people have never been saved. I don't believe that someone can say that salvation is maintained by the will. Those people are not saved. I don't believe that someone who is saved will deny the Once for ALL sacrifice of Jesus by claiming that they are still sinners. Those people are not saved. The fruit of someone who is saved is in what they believe. Faith is the evidence. A great many people who say they believe in Jesus, have no faith at all.

So is the evidence that one believes never admitting to sin again, or just recognizing that it is faith in Jesus and not our own sinlessness that saves us?

The old argument of OSAS is so meaningless when you toss out their reason for holding it in the first place. The ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of Jesus has noting to do with OSAS! The Calvinist reduces the sacrifice of Christ to ONCE FOR SOME. You have just rewritten the sinner’s prayer and included your own points of condition which is no more than an attempt to ‘settle’ the future in another way on your terms.

I’m in Christ! That is my new IDENTITY. I still sin and confess and repent. That is NOT my IDENTITY any longer. I don’t crucify again the Son of God. I simply continue in my faith. And faith can be shipwrecked. Ask Philetus and his buddy Hymenaeus:

2 Timothy 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.​

The hardest thing about being transformed by the 'renewing' of your mind is dealing with all the residual thinking. For better or worse the future is still (at least partially open) even for Christians.

The other Philetus

 

[Philetus]

Since you deny unconditional eternal security, you cannot be saved according to Myst. This negates the salvation of the millions of free will theists (Arminians) who reject deterministic Calvinism.

Biblically, salvation is based on receiving vs rejecting Christ, not mental assent to OSAS.

Thank God my salvation doesn't depend on me, Mystery, Calvin or you.:chuckle: Unconditional eternal security is just another un-thought-through smoke screen that most free-willers won't and determinalists can't let go of. I'm convinced in the next decade there will be no stone left unturned as Open Theism matures into a Theological discipline. We have our work cut out for us in our own thinking, not just in debate with others.

 

[godrulz]

Some talk about the trunk of the elephant and others talk about its legs or ears. It is still the same elephant. Some articulate issues of sin, life, forgiveness, love, holiness, justice, mercy, redemption, etc. in different ways, but that does not automatically make it a biblical vs 'your' gospel.

Would it be fair to say that Clete has been saved by the gospel and preaches the gospel even as M*****Y (everyone likes a good mystery) has been saved by it and preaches it even though they emphasize things differently or have different nuanced understandings (can I include myself and Philetus in this principle)?

We all know and love Jesus, affirm His Deity/resurrection/finished work/grace/faith, etc., so quibbling about semantics is not tantamount to denying the essential core of the gospel.

Clete is not preaching a mutually exclusive, diametrically opposed gospel to M..Y ('biblical vs 'your' false gospel that cannot save?)

 

[godrulz]

Thank God my salvation doesn't depend on me, Mystery, Calvin or you.:chuckle: Unconditional eternal security is just another un-thought-through smoke screen that most free-willers won't and determinalists can't let go of. I'm convinced in the next decade there will be no stone left unturned as Open Theism matures into a Theological discipline. We have our work cut out for us in our own thinking, not just in debate with others.

Perhaps we could write a book together or you could be a ghostwriter. Then we can retire rich and they will still talk about us when we die (paraphrase of drunk disciples at Last Supper in J.C. Superstar).

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/jesus-christ-superstar/the-last-supper.html

 

[Philetus]

Perhaps we could write a book together or you could be a ghostwriter. Then we can retire rich and they will still talk about us when we die (paraphrase of drunk disciples at Last Supper in J.C. Superstar).

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/jesus-christ-superstar/the-last-supper.html

I would love to be the ghostwriter so when they are looking for somebody to burn ... I can watch and still talk about you. :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

Some talk about the trunk of the elephant and others talk about its legs or ears. It is still the same elephant. Some articulate issues of sin, life, forgiveness, love, holiness, justice, mercy, redemption, etc. in different ways, but that does not automatically make it a biblical vs 'your' gospel.

Would it be fair to say that Clete has been saved by the gospel and preaches the gospel even as M*****Y (everyone likes a good mystery) has been saved by it and preaches it even though they emphasize things differently or have different nuanced understandings (can I include myself and Philetus in this principle)?

We all know and love Jesus, affirm His Deity/resurrection/finished work/grace/faith, etc., so quibbling about semantics is not tantamount to denying the essential core of the gospel.

Clete is not preaching a mutually exclusive, diametrically opposed gospel to M..Y ('biblical vs 'your' false gospel that cannot save?)

Neither Lighthouse nor Mystery will understand this point. Partly because you said it but mostly because they do not want to acknowledge that their rhetoric is more confusing that it is instructive.

 

[Mystery]

Neither Lighthouse nor Mystery will understand this point. Partly because you said it but mostly because they do not want to acknowledge that their rhetoric is more confusing that it is instructive.

That's funny, coming from you, Clete. Especially after your scathing rebuke of Lighthouse.

godrulz is clueless. It's not "semantics" that he brings, but an entirely different gospel.

Mormons, Catholics, JW's, Calvinists, etc, are all very much devoted and deeply-rooted by their "gospels too, but they are still false.

 

[Philetus]

Neither Lighthouse nor Mystery will understand this point. Partly because you said it but mostly because they do not want to acknowledge that their rhetoric is more confusing that it is instructive.

And how about you, Clete? Is your rhetoric ever more confusing to others than instructive?
Two gospels? The plot thickens.

I know mine is. It's a gift!

godrulz makes a good point we all should take to heart.

:sozo: Now, back to the hunt for heretics!

I smell fire!

 

[elected4ever]

And how about you, Clete? Is your rhetoric ever more confusing to others than instructive?
Two gospels? The plot thickens.

I know mine is. It's a gift!

godrulz makes a good point we all should take to heart.

:sozo: Now, back to the hunt for heretics!

I smell fire!

Just look in the mirror and you will see the self admitted president of the heretic's club

 

[Clete]

That's funny, coming from you, Clete. Especially after your scathing rebuke of Lighthouse.

godrulz is clueless. It's not "semantics" that he brings, but an entirely different gospel.

Mormons, Catholics, JW's, Calvinists, etc, are all very much devoted and deeply-rooted by their "gospels too, but they are still false.

That wasn't the point.

Never mind.

And it wasn't a scathing rebuke. You guys have got to be the most innately hostile Christians I've ever seen in my life. You assume more than you know and state it as fact and always cast everything anyone says in the most negative possible light. I'm sick to death of it. You (Mystery) have almost single handedly destroyed this entire thread with your attitude. Do you really think that anyone cares to read the nonsense you post toward anyone who dares say something you disagree with? But then again you don't give a rat's butt about the unknown number of people who read these threads do you? You never let those folks cross your mind! You're so puffed up and sure of yourself that the only thing that matters to you is that you come out on top and every one who says anything that even sounds contrary to your particular understanding of Scripture is crushed like some pathetic cockroach who isn't worthy of an ounce of your respect but instead deserves nothing but ridicule and insults. It's pathetic and ridiculous and I've had all of it I'm going to tolerate. You guys want to throw insults around all day long (40-50 plus posts a day of NOTHING) go right ahead, but you can do it without me.

:wave2:

 

[Mystery]

That wasn't the point.

Never mind.

I certainly understood the point godrulz was making. He has been saying it over and over again ad nausium. He really believes that there can be opposing views about those things that he does not perceive as essential, but the evidence of what someone believes (not what they do) is what determines who is in Christ and who is not.

 

[Mystery]

That wasn't the point.

Never mind.

And it wasn't a scathing rebuke. You guys have got to be the most innately hostile Christians I've ever seen in my life. You assume more than you know and state it as fact and always cast everything anyone says in the most negative possible light. I'm sick to death of it. You (Mystery) have almost single handedly destroyed this entire thread with your attitude. Do you really think that anyone cares to read the nonsense you post toward anyone who dares say something you disagree with? But then again you don't give a rat's butt about the unknown number of people who read these threads do you? You never let those folks cross your mind! You're so puffed up and sure of yourself that the only thing that matters to you is that you come out on top and every one who says anything that even sounds contrary to your particular understanding of Scripture is crushed like some pathetic cockroach who isn't worthy of an ounce of your respect but instead deserves nothing but ridicule and insults. It's pathetic and ridiculous and I've had all of it I'm going to tolerate. You guys want to throw insults around all day long (40-50 plus posts a day of NOTHING) go right ahead, but you can do it without me.

:waves2:

Clete, you have got to be blind, if you cannot see all of the "egos", including yours that permeate this thread. How in the world you don't think that you were not arrogant in your post to Lighthouse is just flat self-denial.

In fact, I am not even going to debate this with you. Its asinine.

You just told Lighthouse that his view of the gospel is "asinine".

asinine - foolish, unintelligent, or silly; stupid

How is that not an arrogant statement on your part?

If you end up in Hell its because of your own sin.

In other words... "I don't really know if you are a Christian or not, Lighthouse, because you could end up in hell, and it will be your own fault"

If you think otherwise then you need to put on the brakes and say wait just a damn minute. How in the crap did I get so far off track that I could except that God would send anyone to Hell for any other reason other than their own sin?

"What's the matter with you Lighthouse, how did you become so full of it that you could possibly believe something other than what I believe, which is the truth. People go to hell for their own sin."

The Bible is not written in some sort of code. It's really easy to understand if you just read it and make even the smallest effort toward staying on the same page as the Author.

"Any idiot can understand it. even you Lighthouse, if you would stop wandering off from what the author is saying, but you are too lazy to give it any effort"

When you get to a place where your theology is so convoluted and complex that you find yourself arguing about such simple to understand principles, use it as a red flag to signal that something has gone terribly wrong.

"You are creating your own complex theology, Lighthouse, because what I believe is so simple that it should be easy for you to see that you are wrong"

It's as simply as this.

"You must really be dumb, Lighthouse"

I think you get the point.

I will never say that I do not do that, because I do it in about every response, because that is exactly the way nearly everyone on this site talks to each other, including you, and godrulz does it twice as bad as I do, but for some reason most of you lack the discernment to recognize it. (Translation: You must be stupid).