ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Spitfire

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Both Anglicans and Catholics would fall under a form of Calvinism actually (also EO)
Limited atonement is diametrically opposed to Catholic teaching, actually. And Catholic theology differs with Calvinism on many of the particulars of the others as well. I think it would be more accurate to say that both Catholicism and Calvinism draw heavily on the same Augustinian doctrines on the central importance of God's grace.
 

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Limited atonement is diametrically opposed to Catholic teaching, actually. And Catholic theology differs with Calvinism on many of the particulars of the others as well. I think it would be more accurate to say that both Catholicism and Calvinism draw heavily on the same Augustinian doctrines on the central importance of God's grace.
I would say that things are not as far apart as some imagine. Aikin's "Tiptoe through TULIP" is a good read here.
 

Pariah

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Man. What a thread. Seems like Open Theism diminishes God in being God by bringing Him down to our understanding.

How about everybody taking time out and review this link below. It claims it has the logical refutation to open theism.

http://www.carm.org/open/logical_refutation.htm

As much as Calvin and other names have been thrown around, I can't help but think of this verse.

1 Corinthians 2: 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

In regards to future events in God not knowing, what about the books that were written ahead of time by God for us to do?

Hebrews 10: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

There has to be books about us, because the Psalmist was saying this too.

Psalm 40: 6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. 9I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. 10I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

Psalm 139: 1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! 18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. 19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. 20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. 21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. 23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

If there are doubts to God being God in the Bible, I am sure it is because of our lack of wisdom in understanding His Words. I wouldn't be sold to Open Theism if I were you. I believe God is God.

Romans 9: 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 

Pariah

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Here's to God's foreknowledge.

We have this commandment; the great commission.

Matthew 28: 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And yet, God withheld the Gospel from Asia and Mysia at that time in Acts.

Acts 16: 6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Did they approach the man from the dream in real life and say, we heard you calling for us? No. But God knew that man was seeking Him. He also knew at that time, no one would receive the Good News in Asia and Mysia, because He knew they were not seeking and prefer sin over Him.

Look at the promise for God for all those that seek Him.

Matthew 7: 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

So not only do we know that if some poor African child in some desert dies from starvation without ever hearing the Gospel, God knew that child would not receive Him. Any argument about God being unjust in sending a child to hell for not hearing the Gosple at all is out the window, because of God's promise and foreknowledge.

So while we rest in God being God, we trust in Him to lead us in serving Him as He enables us by the grace of God.

Romans 10: 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Thus all those that would have believed if they had heard the Gospel would have heard the Gospel. We know that because God is God.

John 3: 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I would say that things are not as far apart as some imagine. Aikin's "Tiptoe through TULIP" is a good read here.



Aaarghhh . . .

Nang wishes AMR did not recommend this article or author. :cry:

Aikin's attempt to play footsie with TULIP is a serious compromise on all five points.

I am obligated before God to take a stand and recommend against it.

Nang
 

Evoken

New member
I would say that things are not as far apart as some imagine. Aikin's "Tiptoe through TULIP" is a good read here.

I think it would depend on what one is talking about, as TULIP is not the totality of Calvinism. As far as the article you linked to goes, as Akin himself states, he wrote it from a Thomistic point of view. He could write another from a Molinist point of view and he would have shown an even stronger difference between both.

Granted, the Thomistic perspective (which is the one I subscribe to), has strong similarities with the infralapsarian variety of Calvinism when it comes to the issues covered by the TULIP. However, wether from a Thomist or Molinist point of view, once we get into other issues like the nature of grace, the ordo salutis, The Church, the Sacraments, faith, works, etc, we start to see some rather sharp differences.


Evo
 

Evoken

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Aaarghhh . . .

Nang wishes AMR did not recommend this article or author. :cry:

Aikin's attempt to play footsie with TULIP is a serious compromise on all five points.

I am obligated before God to take a stand and recommend against it.

Nang

I imagine that you would object to is as a supra since Akin's article seems to use the infra view of Calvinism for all the points.


Evo
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I imagine that you would object to is as a supra since Akin's article seems to use the infra view of Calvinism for all the points.


Evo


Aikin is less than Infra.

AMR and I have no problem with our "lapsarian" differences, but Aikin compromises TULIP; which is a more comprehensive danger to Reformers.

Calvinists who go this route end up in the Amyraldian camp, which often leads to full-blown Arminianism.

Of course, for taking this stand, I am and will be labelled "Hyper-Calvinist." :(

So be it . . .

Nang
 

Philetus

New member
Aikin is less than Infra.

AMR and I have no problem with our "lapsarian" differences, but Aikin compromises TULIP; which is a more comprehensive danger to Reformers.

Calvinists who go this route end up in the Amyraldian camp, which often leads to full-blown Arminianism.

Of course, for taking this stand, I am and will be labelled "Hyper-Calvinist." :(

So be it . . .

Nang

Good for you, Nang! I mean it! I respect your taking a firm stand even though I strongly disagree with Calvinism. It is getting harder and harder to find a good Calvinist these days. 'Hyper' isn't a bad label.

Wear the shoe. :chuckle:

Your Hyper Open Theist friend,
Philetus
 

Philetus

New member
Man. What a thread. Seems like Open Theism diminishes God in being God by bringing Him down to our understanding.

If there are doubts to God being God in the Bible, I am sure it is because of our lack of wisdom in understanding His Words. I wouldn't be sold to Open Theism if I were you. I believe God is God.

Thus all those that would have believed if they had heard the Gospel would have heard the Gospel. We know that because God is God.

In regards to future events in God not knowing, what about the books that were written ahead of time by God for us to do?

There has to be books about us, because the Psalmist was saying this too.

Wow. You got us. “Open Theists don’t believe God is God.” Looks as if we’ve finally been busted.

I guess since we can’t fool anyone by bringing God down to our own understanding we will just have to settle for incarnation and leave it at that.

Sheesh … and for a second there I thought we were on to something. :rolleyes:

Philetus
 

RobE

New member

Change or die.

Philetus​


It's a mistake to adapt to the world. We've been called out of the world to become one with Christ.

Revelation 2:3
You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.​

Islam is growing at a tremendous rate. This is because they are steadfast in their beliefs. Respect is earned through not compromising. We need to 'go to the world' in the same sense that fishermen 'go fishing'. We do not need to adapt ourselves to the world, but become a light in the world. A beacon which will lead those who are lost back to the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ will not conform to the world under any circumstance.

You state, "Change or die.", which I find interesting because the Body of Christ did die. Victory is achieved through a remnant, not through overwhelming numbers. Twelve men became two billion 'so called' believers. God works through small numbers. If we have to adapt to the world we will no longer be Christians.

Why do you think Christianity has become so 'corrupted' in the western civilizations? Is it because the western church has 'adapted' and become ultimately more worldly? What good would it do to bring unbelievers into an environment which is no different than the environment they exist in now? Christians repent!

No. We must stand our ground. We must resist evil. The gates will not prevail against us. Be not afraid, Philetus! You will stand before Him alone to answer for your own actions, but you need not stand alone now. We are here, suffering and never changing. Don't reject Christ and follow a new idea. Embrace Christianity and its established traditions. Jesus went to the temple. Jesus observed the traditions of the church established by the Father. Are you better than Christ?

But rather you already know Jesus. How can I help you see and know what you already know [more fully] so I can meet and know your Jesus? (Leonard Sweet. 1999: 54).'​

This guy is a nut or at least says nutty things. He is Our Lord whether you believe in Him or not. Let us reason together, because separately we're vulnerable to the wolves.​
 

Lon

Well-known member
I think it would depend on what one is talking about, as TULIP is not the totality of Calvinism. As far as the article you linked to goes, as Akin himself states, he wrote it from a Thomistic point of view. He could write another from a Molinist point of view and he would have shown an even stronger difference between both.

Granted, the Thomistic perspective (which is the one I subscribe to), has strong similarities with the infralapsarian variety of Calvinism when it comes to the issues covered by the TULIP. However, wether from a Thomist or Molinist point of view, once we get into other issues like the nature of grace, the ordo salutis, The Church, the Sacraments, faith, works, etc, we start to see some rather sharp differences.


Evo

Agreed, but you'd also recognize we are both Covenantal, value our traditions and esteem our elders in the faith. Catholics does have Calvinists and/or those with strong Calvinist leanings and I have links if I need them.
 

lee_merrill

New member
As I told Lon, the only reason you want to assert there are gaps is because you have an agenda to keep your theology. So you must "add" that some how there is a gap in Moses' genealogy.
That's strange, I thought I was doing this because there aren't enough years in the generations to cover 400 total.

I wish it bothered you, or that at least you realized you were doing this for your theology's sake.
To quote one Patman, I wish at least you realized you were doing this for your theology's sake--how clear can this be, to not even discuss reasons, and conclude like this? After Patman was saying to look at his arithmetic, even.

Blessings,
Lee
 

lee_merrill

New member
Catholics does have Calvinists and/or those with strong Calvinist leanings and I have links if I need them.
I note that Calvin quoted Augustine chapter and verse--but Calvin also wasn't growing all petals of the TULIP, he did not in fact subscribe to limited atonement, so I would not be surprised to hear that Catholics do not subscribe to this...

Blessings,
Lee
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I note that Calvin quoted Augustine chapter and verse--but Calvin also wasn't growing all petals of the TULIP, he did not in fact subscribe to limited atonement, so I would not be surprised to hear that Catholics do not subscribe to this...

Blessings,
Lee

Of course, Catholics do not subscribe to Limited Atonement, due to the Pelagian influence, but . . .

Calvin did not subscribe to Limited Atonement or Augustine did not subscribe to Limited Atonement?

Can you cite reasons for coming to this conclusion regarding either C or A?

Nang
 

patman

Active member
That's strange, I thought I was doing this because there aren't enough years in the generations to cover 400 total.


To quote one Patman, I wish at least you realized you were doing this for your theology's sake--how clear can this be, to not even discuss reasons, and conclude like this? After Patman was saying to look at his arithmetic, even.

Blessings,
Lee

I have added nothing to the scriptures, so...... your point is?:down:
 

patman

Active member
In regards to future events in God not knowing, what about the books that were written ahead of time by God for us to do?

Pariah, welcome to TOL

It seems the Open Theists (whom I am one of) take rounds in this thread. I hope you stick around and consider some of our ideas.

The way I try to discuss this on TOL is to address one point at a time, rather than take on the entire argument at once. It is just too much typing ;)

So I thought I would address this. The first point I would like to address is the believe that knowing some of the future means God knows all of the future. This argument just cannot be made, even I know some of the future, but that doesn't mean I know all of it. For example, I know God is coming back with great power and judgement, and grace for us. That doesn't mean I know everything else.

Open Theists believe some of the future is known, but not everything. God changes his plans depending on what happens in the future. For example, he plans to save the everyone, but if one person refuses, God changes his plan from salvation to damnation.

So his books are changing! They change with time, and in time. If God knew the future with 100% certainty, these books written by God about the future would already be their finished version... but they are not...

Exodus 32:33
And the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,And not be written with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[] his part from the Book[] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Pariah, how can the future be written if God is changing the books?
:thumb:
 

patman

Active member
Oh man, with a post like this I think we are done. If the only reason I've been discussing with you has been to entrench with 'an agenda to keep [my] theology' and I'm having to 'add' then what are we doing? Are you really pitting your view up against Hebrew and Greek scholars? Are you really throwing this work up against PhD's and saying it is so obvious they are wrong and you are correct?

Before I sound too much like a brainwashed traditionalist here, let me tell you that I have classical training in their schools and I was awed. Dr. Mitchell could literally quote chapter and verse with references from the whole Bible. Dr. Brake became the president of the Bible study institute in Israel. Dr. Edward Goodrick is responsible for working on the NIV and NASB as a lead translator. He didn't use an English Bible for his lectures but translated as he taught from Hebrew and Greek. Dr. Congdon was one of the top IQ's registered with Mensa. Dr. Cook was a missionary for 30+ years before taking the missions department. Many of these men have moved on or have since gone to glory but they were my teachers. My professors.

Patman, do you realize what you are doing or trying to do?

Lon, no one knows all the answers, not they, not I, not you. I simply cannot agree that the slavery was for 400 years. That's it. Why, please, why is everyone making this into something more?

This isn't the end of the world, it isn't the last nail in SV's casket. It is just evidence.....

I don't care anymore. None of you are even reading my words.
 

patman

Active member
Huh? So scholarly treatment of the verse reviewed by Lon with you shows something different than what you simply "think" and that is that? These scholars, Lon, and myself, are co-conspirators all working continue a theology you disagree with? :doh:

From the original language, the verse (Gen. 15:13) is structured as an introversion:

1 Thy seed shall be a stranger…etc.
zzzzzz2 and shall serve them
zzzzzz2 and they shall afflict them
1 four hundred years

For 1 the whole sojourning and duration is in view.
For 2 the servitude is in view

In Exodus 12:40, the epitrechon parenthetical is similarly evident:
"Now the sojourning of the children of Israel (who dwelt in Egypt), was 430 years."

The "sojourning" started with Gen. 12:1, and is quite a different subject from the "dwelling" in Egypt.

Two calculations are used for the sojourning:
1. starting from the promise to Abraham (Ex. 12:40; Gal. 3:14, 17)
2. starting with the recognition of his "seed" (Isaac) (Gen. 21:12; Acts 7:6; Gen. 15:13)

You don't have to agree. You can call it all a vast conspiracy. A plot out to malign patman, etc. I just call it biblical scholarship.

AMR, thank you for posting this. I am not being sarcastic at all, I promise, when I say that.

You just validated my point with that thread. If all those things were supposed to happen in 400 years, this makes the case I have even stronger. You may not see it, but it does. Before you sigh, slap your head, bang the keyboard, just think about it.

Do you see what I mean? It didn't happen in 400 years! You can hate me for saying it, but it is true, it didn't happen... God changed the outcome, praise him for it.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I simply cannot agree that the slavery was for 400 years.

Do you see what I mean? It didn't happen in 400 years! You can hate me for saying it, but it is true, it didn't happen... God changed the outcome, praise him for it.

The verse has nothing to do with slavery lasting 400 years. This is your fundamental error. Do you see what I mean?
 
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