The evolution game is up!!!

PlastikBuddha

New member
There are not many examples of IC failing although I was just assuming it for the sake of argument. What examples did you have in mind? Hope you don't mind me asking. As long as science is alive and working...
ID has failed to provide even a single example of irreducible complexity. That's what I'm sayiong- science is working, and in a roundabout way, ID helps further the cause of evolution by pointing out gaps in our understanding. People rush to fill those gaps and science gains by it. The flagellum, the blood clotting cascade. The argument is basically that these systems are so intricate that there couldn't possibly be any way for them to have come about naturally. When a way is discovered they just move the bar a little and start over again. It's not science, but it does help light a fire under the scientific community.

Christians love science as it was given to us by our Creator. I see no reason for us to hold it for different reasons other than the fact that God gave it to us for investigation of His majesty. Doesn't Darwin come to mind? They've erred many times in arguments such as vestigial organs, junk DNA, wrong mechanisms, fossil record etc. Time and again it is still falling and collapsing but does this necessary make it not science? Should we discard science because people have erred so many times? Even Albert Einstein's theory is incomplete and has it's share of problems. We should go with the theory that is more logical and fits with the data. So far, the flagellum fits perfectly with ID and still stands today. It is perfectly testable since design can be detected...I suppose the question would be whether they really did detect it.

Design has never been detected. What would design look like? How would it differ from an evolved structure? The theory of evolution has not failed. It has... evolved. ID has not changed- and can't change because its central tenant is completely at odds with science itself. The central statement of evolution, that life as we see it has descended from an ancient common ancestor has remained unchanged. Only the processes surrounding those changes have been revised as our understanding grows.
 

Evoken

New member
So you found a site in which Behe defends Behe? BFHD. Try digging just a little deeper and seeing how the rest of the world of biology responds.

Nah, you digg now. Show "how the rest of the world of biology" responds. The article I linked to is actually Behe answering the claims made by "the world of biology" against IC.


Evo
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
A hard time believing in Young Earth creationism, to be specific. YEC is a deluded fantasy with absolutely no evidence.

Actually what finally impressed me about the simple accounts in scripture about origins is that although they are simple they are sufficiently close to a practical solution as to suggest that they are true. Let me explain.

1) How did the universe originate and how come we can see distant starlight when the stars are so far away and the universe is so large that any light being emitted at this exact moment would take billions of years to reach us?

Scripture claims that God not only created the universe but also stretched out the heavens, both events occurring sometime during the 6 days of creation. Interestingly if God stretched out the heavens to their present size in less than a week we would be able to see distant stars because their light would have been stretched out along with everything else in the early universe. How come nomadic sheepherders realized this when it has only been recently that modern astronomers have hypothesized in the Big Bang scenario (inflationary period) that this is what would have happened if the universe had been expanded rapidly? In other words we do not see in our telescopes the light that has been recently emitted, but instead we see the light that was emitted during the initial ultra rapid expansion of the heavens.

2) How could random mutations, even conceding that Natural Selection culls all failures, generate countless thousands of proteins necessary for even the simplist life to exist? In other words how could the first fully functioning lifeforms even get started?

Scripture teaches that the first lifeforms were not simple and that they were created in multiple types. Therefore, the diversity we see today in the natural world could build up very rapidly from the original types by the process of sexual recombination and minor changes to already existing regulatory genes. How could nomatic sheepherders realize that this was not only possible, but a more feasible scenario than that offered by the "random mutations plus natural selection" scenario?

3) The latest hot idea in evolutionary science is called "evo-devo" and imagines that small changes to regulatory genes can cause large effects in the final living forms.

Evo-devo focuses on regulatory genes and tends to ignores the fact that just turning on a switch is not the entire story. We turn on a switch to start our car, but the question is not so much where the switch came from and how it functions but instead where all the things activated by the switch came from in the first place. This is why it is disingeneous (misleading) to say that evolution does not include abiogenesis. If by abiogenesis one means the first fully functioning lifeform this is really where most of the details of life are at, not merely the switch which activates the car when the ignition switch is turned on.

So the bottom line is that God created the first fully functioning lifeforms in multiple types of land, sea and air creatures and sexual reproduction and a few minor changes to regulatory genes was able to take it from there in a relatively short period of time. (Do you realize how rapidly people can breed variations of animals to exhibit at a County Fair compared to how many generations would be involved and how long it would take given only "random mutations plus Natural Selection" ?) Yes, mutations can also lead to variation, but the time scale is typically millions of times longer in length. Not a very efficient way for adaptation to react to changes in the environment.
 

JustinFoldsFive

New member
macguy said:
In fact, many back in those days knew that the earth was round long before Galileo.

Um, you might want to brush up on your science history. Galileo's claim to fame was not discovering that the Earth was round. Try again. :)
 

mighty_duck

New member
Actually what finally impressed me about the simple accounts in scripture about origins is that although they are simple they are sufficiently close to a practical solution as to suggest that they are true. Let me explain.

So God snapped His invisible fingers, and by magic, everything seemed to work. How could nomadic sheepherders know that magic could account for everything, and still be unquestioned after so long? Amazing how simple and practical that magic solution is! :yawn:
 

death2impiety

Maximeee's Husband

Link 1
I clicked the first link and it doesn't offer any critical analysis of IC just the assertion that it's wrong.

Link 2
The second link interprets Behe's argument stating:
(P1) Direct, gradual evolution proceeds only by stepwise addition of parts.
(P2) By definition, an irreducibly complex system lacking a part is nonfunctional.
(C) Therefore, all possible direct gradual evolutionary precursors to an irreducibly complex system must be nonfunctional.

but wrongly argues...
Of course, Behe's argument is false since the first premise is false: gradual evolution can also proceed directly by changing or removing parts. Evolution can do much more than just add parts. In contrast, Behe's "irreducible complexity" is restricted to only removing parts. This is why "irreducible complexity" cannot tell us anything useful about how a structure did or did not evolve.

The author argues that all that needs to be done to solve Behe's dilemna are:
1)Add a part
2)Make it necessary
If this were the mechanism responsible for alleged IC things like eyesight and blood clotting, we should see organisms with quote "Irreducibly complex" components that are obvious evolutionary ancestors, such as an eye missing a part or using a different part to function well enough for eye sight. The concept that Muller puts across assumes that functions like eyesight not only potentially evolved in one large step, but that it potentially evolved from something completely unrelated to eyesight. Eyesight: an evolutionary oops.

This paper doesn't even attempt to refute any real examples of IC but instead links to an alleged example of a "new IC" related to the decomposition of a wood preservative called Pentachlorophenol. This is a straw man because Irreducible Complexity does not have anything to do with how compounds break down, but how they function. Indeed anything will break down over time if exposed to the elements.

Link 3
The next link attempts to refute Behe by refuting his mouse trap example. Another straw-man (that acutally works against evolution) because the mouse-trap unambigiously requires an intelligent designer and only intelligence can alter a mouse trap with it's intended function intact. Anyway, Behe only used this example to illustrate the concept that some things cease to function if you take one part away. When the IC dissenter removed the base and nailed it into the floor, intelligence replaced a necessary part and so, the mouse trap still functions. If a base is completely removed, it will not function. Using Mullers theory, a mouse trap could have evolved from something completely different from a mousetrap. Try taking a baseless moustrap and let me know what you make of the parts.

Oh and just for fun, this link also attempts to use Junk DNA as an evidence against ID. We now know that all DNA that was once thought to be 'junk' serve a vitally important role. see http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/junkdna.php

I'm not going to bother with the other links, I'm sure they're just as erroneous as the first three.
 
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death2impiety

Maximeee's Husband
So God snapped His invisible fingers, and by magic, everything seemed to work. How could nomadic sheepherders know that magic could account for everything, and still be unquestioned after so long? Amazing how simple and practical that magic solution is! :yawn:

A supernatural being brought nature into existance.

In a similar way, when you see a painting who's creator has died or is not present you do not assume it arrose by natural means. You recognize that it was designed with intelligence. That the order and beauty you see could not have been an accident...well, not all artwork :chuckle:

The point is, we use natural things to create. We use different colors of oil or compounds to make art work. A supernatural God has more than nature to work with on his creative pallette, He has the ability to call material things into existance.
 

mighty_duck

New member
A supernatural being brought nature into existance.

In a similar way, when you see a painting who's creator has died or is not present you do not assume it arrose by natural means. You recognize that it was designed with intelligence. That the order and beauty you see could not have been an accident...well, not all artwork :chuckle:

The point is, we use natural things to create. We use different colors of oil or compounds to make art work. A supernatural God has more than nature to work with on his creative pallette, He has the ability to call material things into existance.
First, I was responding to Bob, who was marveling that magic seems to be able to account for things. Amazing! Magic can account for anything.

Second, when we see a painting, we recognize it as ARTIFICIAL. From there, and knowing that man-made objects are made by intelligent agents, we can establish purpose or design.

But even then, we may be at a loss. If you observe a computer algorithm, one that seems to give "intelligent" results, how would you know if it was designed or evolved (using genetic algorithms)? You may claim that even an evolved algorithm was ultimately designed, but that would also mean that ID and evolution can easily co-exist.

Evolution does not rule out a deist or ID god. Heck, It doesn't even rule out the Christian God unless a couple of chapters in Genesis are taken literally. Therefore using apparent design to counter evolution is a losing battle.
 

death2impiety

Maximeee's Husband
First, I was responding to Bob, who was marveling that magic seems to be able to account for things. Amazing! Magic can account for anything.

Please forgive my intrusion :)

Second, when we see a painting, we recognize it as ARTIFICIAL. From there, and knowing that man-made objects are made by intelligent agents, we can establish purpose or design.

Do you reject the concept that paintings are the result of intelligent design?

But even then, we may be at a loss. If you observe a computer algorithm, one that seems to give "intelligent" results, how would you know if it was designed or evolved (using genetic algorithms)? You may claim that even an evolved algorithm was ultimately designed, but that would also mean that ID and evolution can easily co-exist.

Do you deny that computer algorithms are the result of intelligent design?

Evolution does not rule out a deist or ID god. Heck, It doesn't even rule out the Christian God unless a couple of chapters in Genesis are taken literally. Therefore using apparent design to counter evolution is a losing battle.

Evolution is a horribly inadequate explaination for the complexity we see around us. It doesn't matter that it doesn't rule out God. It's plainly stupid.
 

PlastikBuddha

New member
Link 1
I only clicked the first link and it doesn't offer any critical analysis of IC just the assertion that it's wrong.
It provides a nice overview of the topic.
Link 2

The second link interprets Behe's argument stating:


but wrongly argues...


The author argues that all that needs to be done to solve Behe's dilemna are:
1)Add a part
2)Make it necessary
If this were the mechanism responsible for alleged IC things like eyesight and blood clotting, we should see organisms with quote "Irreducibly complex" components that are obvious evolutionary ancestors, such as an eye missing a part or using a different part to function well enough for eye sight. The concept that Muller puts across assumes that functions like eyesight not only potentially evolved in one large step, but that it potentially evolved from something completely unrelated to eyesight. Eyesight: an evolutionary oops.
The evolution of the eye has happened multiple times so that not only do we have examples of varying degrees of complexity going all the way back to simple photosensitive eyespots we also have examples of branches that took seperate paths of evolution. It is not IC.
This paper doesn't even attempt to refute any real examples of IC but instead links to an alleged example of a "new IC" related to the decomposition of a wood preservative called Pentachlorophenol. This is a straw man because Irreducible Complexity does not have anything to do with how compounds break down, but how they function. Indeed anything will break down over time if exposed to the elements.
It explains how a seemingly IC ability to break down a chemical was evolved. Your argument is absurd. You can't use an example involving digestion- anything could become digested! What is a legitimate example of IC, then?
Link 3
The next link attempts to refute Behe by refuting his mouse trap example. Another straw-man (that acutally works against evolution) because the mouse-trap unambigiously requires an intelligent designer and only intelligence can alter a mouse trap with it's intended function intact. Anyway, Behe only used this example to illustrate the concept that some things cease to function if you take one part away. When the IC dissenter removed the base and nailed it into the floor, intelligence replaced a necessary part and so, the mouse trap still functions. If a base is completely removed, it will not function. Using Mullers theory, a mouse trap could have evolved from something completely different from a mousetrap. Try taking a baseless moustrap and let me know what you make of the parts.
Just curious- but did you bother to read the article? It answers those questions.
Oh and just for fun, this link also attempts to use Junk DNA as an evidence against ID. We now know that all DNA that was once thought to be 'junk' serve a vitally important role. see http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/junkdna.php
We don't "know" that. The role junk DNA plays is being reexamined, but let's not go bonkers, ok?:banana: Even so- I'm not sure how you think finding some level of functionality in junk DNA would help the IC argument. As for ID, I think its a neutral issue. God could have hypothetically created life with as much or as little junk DNA as he chose. What does evolution say? Not much really. Evolution is about what survives, and that could be a useful trait or a length of meaningless code that does nothing. Nature seems to streamiline things, to trim the fat, so it wouldn't surprise me to see some functionality in even seemingly useless features because even a small survival advantage can make a difference over time.
I'm not going to bother with the other links, I'm sure they're just as erroneous as the first three.

Seems to me like you didn't really bother with the first three, either.
 

mighty_duck

New member
Please forgive my intrusion :)
No need to apologize. This is TOL after all :)

My answer was directed at the evocation of magic as an acceptable explanation that "works", not against the possibility of a supernatural being.

Do you reject the concept that paintings are the result of intelligent design?
Of course not. But the reason is that we first recognize paintings as artificial.

Do you deny that computer algorithms are the result of intelligent design?
There are genetic algorithms that are capable of evolving. As observers, we would have a hard time telling a "designed" algorithm from an "evolved" one.

Evolution is a horribly inadequate explaination for the complexity we see around us. It doesn't matter that it doesn't rule out God. It's plainly stupid.
Thousands and thousands of biologists of all stripes disagree with you. Could it be that they looked in to the issue a bit more closely than you have?

If it doesn't matter about god, then why bring out the design argument? The design argument is a method of "inferring" god, not of disproving evolution.

Maybe you could tell us what exactly is inadequate?
 

death2impiety

Maximeee's Husband
The evolution of the eye has happened multiple times so that not only do we have examples of varying degrees of complexity going all the way back to simple photosensitive eyespots we also have examples of branches that took seperate paths of evolution. It is not IC.

Cite sources.

It explains how a seemingly IC ability to break down a chemical was evolved.

It doesn't explain how an ability evolved, it asserts that it did. And merely explains the process of the decomposition.

We don't "know" that. The role junk DNA plays is being reexamined, but let's not go bonkers, ok?:banana: Even so- I'm not sure how you think finding some level of functionality in junk DNA would help the IC argument.

I didn't say that it was related to IC, but that the paper also uses junk dna as evidence against ID and I pointed out that that theory has been and is in the process of being debunked.
 

alexander a

New member
hmm. i believe that the theory of evolution will most likely not stay exactly the same, but will evolve itself. to rationalize however, natural selection is very much a fact, and so thus proving one of the primary aspects of evolution. it is however, a theory, and not complete. people of reason like myself, unlike the theists, do not pretend to know everything. that said i believe that science can provide more satisfactory answers than the bible (in my opinion mind u :))
it annoys me how the creationists sometimes fabricate the idea that there is much debate as to the validity of evolution amongst the scientific community, when evolution is the generally accepted theory of life, no matter how ridiculous you think it is.
 

PlastikBuddha

New member
Cite sources.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/1/l_011_01.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20011031150450/http:/www.world-of-dawkins.com/peepers.htm


It doesn't explain how an ability evolved, it asserts that it did. And merely explains the process of the decomposition.
from source-
The inefficient regulation of PcpC is evidently the key to the whole process. So far as biologists can tell, a recent mutation that changed the deployment of this enzyme is what made PCP degradation possible for this bacterium. It also happens that both PcpC and the first enzyme in the process are now slightly optimized for dealing with PCP; they handle it better than the corresponding enzymes in strains of S. chlorophenolica that use PcpC only in its normal role, but not nearly as well as would be expected for an old, well adapted system. These factors, combined with the fact that PCP is not known to occur naturally, make a strong circumstantial case that this system has evolved very recently.
Seems good to me.
I didn't say that it was related to IC, but that the paper also uses junk dna as evidence against ID and I pointed out that that theory has been and is in the process of being debunked.

I'm saying there is no "debunking" going on. I don't believe that junk DNA is a strong argument against ID because a creator could conceivably have chosen to include it for reasons of his own.
 

death2impiety

Maximeee's Husband
My answer was directed at the evocation of magic as an acceptable explanation that "works", not against the possibility of a supernatural being.

I was trying to ellaborate on the "magic" joke to try to give you insight as to how God works. It isn't by magic but by the nature of His being and the tools he has at his disposal. By the law of conservation of mass and energy, matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed correct? If a Being is able to bring the material world into existence (creating mass and energy) He is non-material/spiritual/on a different material plain than the "natural universe" and has abilities that observers from the material/created world are unfamiliar with and unable to imagine.


Of course not. But the reason is that we first recognize paintings as artificial.

A painting is not artificial it is material. A painting is only "artificial" in the sense that it represent something else (like a person or place) that it truly isn't. The different parts that make up the painting are not artificial, they are material and they have been assembled by an intelligent source. We are able to recognize that.

Do you agree that a painting is not artificial?

There are genetic algorithms that are capable of evolving. As observers, we would have a hard time telling a "designed" algorithm from an "evolved" one.

I'd better stay away from this one. I know nothing of algorithms aside from their mathematical uses in computer programs. Maybe for my own education you can provide me with a link that explains biological algorithms. :thumb:


Thousands and thousands of biologists of all stripes disagree with you. Could it be that they looked in to the issue a bit more closely than you have?

It could be. It could also be that they have naturalist presuppositions that blind them to obvious supernatural alternatives that have lead to the propagation of their biased interpretation of reality. Is that possible?

If it doesn't matter about god, then why bring out the design argument? The design argument is a method of "inferring" god, not of disproving evolution.

The design argument is a method of discovering truth and putting a tired naturalist paradigm to rest.

Maybe you could tell us what exactly is inadequate?

How did the first cell evolve?
 

mighty_duck

New member
A painting is not artificial it is material. A painting is only "artificial" in the sense that it represent something else (like a person or place) that it truly isn't. The different parts that make up the painting are not artificial, they are material and they have been assembled by an intelligent source. We are able to recognize that.

Do you agree that a painting is not artificial?
The combination of canvas and paints (even if separately are natural) is artificial. We recognize things that are artifical because we know (generally) what man can do and we know (generally) what nature can do.

We'll recognize an abstract painting as being artificial just as easily as the mona lisa.

I'd better stay away from this one. I know nothing of algorithms aside from their mathematical uses in computer programs. Maybe for my own education you can provide me with a link that explains biological algorithms. :thumb:
This is a good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithms



It could be. It could also be that they have naturalist presuppositions that blind them to obvious supernatural alternatives that have lead to the propagation of their biased interpretation of reality. Is that possible?
Naturalists actually do not have any special presuppositions - it is a lack of supernatural presupposition. And there are plenty of Christian biologists that have come to the same conclusions. Are they biased too?

The design argument is a method of discovering truth and putting a tired naturalist paradigm to rest.
Possibly. But it does nothing to discredit evolution. It could easily be the the creator used evolution to make his designs.

How did the first cell evolve?
Short answer - we don't know.
The first cell is not covered by the theory of evolution though. If you want to discuss it, it should go in another thread.
 

death2impiety

Maximeee's Husband
The combination of canvas and paints (even if separately are natural) is artificial. We recognize things that are artifical because we know (generally) what man can do and we know (generally) what nature can do.

We'll recognize an abstract painting as being artificial just as easily as the mona lisa.

By using the terms artificial and material we are referring to making a distinction between two different types of matter, some which are "natural" or "material" (trees, rocks, or even people from the evolutionary perspective) and some which have been "designed" and are "artificial." (houses, rock walls, art work).

So, okay I can agree that a painting is artificial in that it is not "natural" by conventional definition. In fact every single facet of a painting is designed, from the material it is painted on, to the order in which to paint has been applied to represent...well anything!

As for abstract works of art I think that you are making a good point. They are oftentimes produced by acts of chance, and are a great example of how even things that may appear externally to be "natural" are not!


As a smart man once said:
Oh! An encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone at any time?!?!? That must be the place to learn :chuckle: I guess I'll find a source elsewhere.

Naturalists actually do not have any special presuppositions - it is a lack of supernatural presupposition. And there are plenty of Christian biologists that have come to the same conclusions. Are they biased too?

All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms).


Possibly. But it does nothing to discredit evolution. It could easily be the the creator used evolution to make his designs.

Not exactly easy.
http://www.carm.org/evolution/evodds.htm


Short answer - we don't know.
You guys and your scapegoats.
Then, what was the first "thing" that evolution had it's kick off with? Was it a single cell or a multi-celled organism? Tell me about that a little bit.
 
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