Originally posted by Rolf Ernst
C. Moore--Our job is to testify of His existence, to bear witness of Him.
There are secular writings from that period which refer to Him, Josephus being one of them.
The encyclopedia Britannica says much about Him. Check it out. They will also list sources, or a bibliography.
That being said, however, we MUST remember that those kinds of testimonies will be in vain. No one can truly know He lived--and still does live--until He is pleased to manifest Himself to that person, and He does so through the gospel; through the Scripture, and the preaching of it.
A person may research other sources concerning Him until they begin to believe that He did indeed walk upon the earth, but that level of belief is not the kind of acknowledgement that makes Him REAL to people. That comes only by the power of the Holy Spirit. So my answer to a person who wanted evidence would be, "My job as His ambassador is to declare Him to you. If He is pleased to make Himself known to you, He will do so through His Word and our witness concerning Him. If not, anything else will be in vain.
this is what he wrote about Josephus.
Another famous historian of the period was Flavius Josephus, who lived from around 37AD to 97 AD. (Look in the INDEX of The Christ Conspiracy and find the pages about Josephus’ works. See what she says). In his "Antiquities" he wrote two passages of interest, the first referring to James as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." (20:9). The second reference is more explicit,
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
“ Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.�
Our surviving sources for this passage are Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dates from the 9th century. However there are citations in other writers of antiquity.
The first to cite this passage of Antiquities was Eusebius writing in about A.D. 324, who quotes the passage in essentially the same form. So it is clear that this passage existed in manuscripts of the Antiquities of the Jews at that time.
However, it is significant that Origen writing in about A.D. 240, fails to mention it, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James that occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (book 20, ch. 9). This has given rise to the suggestion that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in that form.
Those historians disposed to reject the passage suggest that passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and that the thread of continuity is interrupted by this passage. The passage 3.3 also is supposed to fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorf, 2002. Consequently these historians dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation. It is also argued that 'He was [the] Christ.' can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian.
the theologian Origen (about 185-254 AD) said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (Contra Celsum, 1:47). Edwin M. Yamauchi, Ph.D., says of this text, " Today there's a remarkable consensus among both Jewish and Christian scholars (religious sources. Unreliable) that the passage as a whole is authentic
Another writer, from around 52 AD, was Thallus. None of his works are extant, but some fragments are preserved by other writers. One was Julius Africanus, who wrote about 221(unreliable. Julius Africanus is writing about what about Thallus said 200 years later. How can anyone trust that as proof. Where are these origional writings of Thallus. Thallus works have been tampered with by Christians. Unreliable). He says:
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Extant Writings, 18 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers) (Nowhere in the ancient world did anyone record an eclipse at this time except here and in the bible? Strange).
Africanus identifies this darkness (or eclipse) with the darkness surrounding Christ's death.
Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator, wrote to the Emperor Trajan around 112 AD and said of Christians:
"They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food-but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." (Letters, 10:96).
(This is propaganda rubbish that was written 112 years after by a so-called Christian writer).
This passage confirms that early Christians worshipped Christ as God, rather than having the "Godhood" of Christ added as legend at a later date.
The Talmud also records several references of Jesus. The ones of importance were compiled between 70 and 200 AD, during the so-called Tannatic Period. The most significant text is Sanhedrian 43a:
"One the eve of Passover Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!" (Babylonian Talmud) (This is not Jesus that they’re talking about, besides was Jesus nailed to a cross or hanged? If he lived and was hanged then the Bible has it wrong, because the Bible claims that he was nailed to the cross. “For the message of the CROSS is follishness to those who are perishing…�
It was a practice of the Jews as it was in that part of the world to have a man representing the man-god or a sheep sacrificed for the sins of the people at the end of the year or in times of great danger. They believed that their sins would perish with the dead animal or man. The name was usually Jeoud or Yeshu etc..
“Among the Semites of Western Asia the king, in a time of national danger, sometimes gave his own son to die as a sacrifice for the people. Thus Philo of Byblus, in his work on the Jews, says: ‘It was an ancient custom in a crisis of great danger that the ruler of a city or nation should give his beloved son to die for the whole people, as a ransom offered to the avenging demons; and the children thus offered were slain with mystic rites. So Cronus, whom the Phonenicians called Israel, being king of the land and having an only-begotten son called Jeoud (for in the Phoenician tongue Jeoud signifies “only begotten�), dressed him in royal robes and sacrificed him upon an alter in a time of war, when the country was in great danger from the enemy.’ When the king of Moab was besieged by the Israelites and hard beset, he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall.�(James Frazer, The Golden Bough).
This passage confirms the crucifixion, the time it occurred, and the fact that Jesus was accused of sorcery in regards to His miracles.
Mara Bar-Serapion, a Syrian, wrote to his son Serapion sometime between the late first and early third century and said:
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagorans? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given." (British Museum, Syriac ms, add. 14, 658; cited in Habermas, 200).(nonsense)
Besides these manuscripts, there are many other hinted at by other manuscripts. The Acts of Pontius Pilate are refereed to by Justin Martyr in 150(150 is 150 years too late), and by Tertullian in 200. Justin Martyr wrote:
"And the _expression, 'They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in his hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon his vesture, and they that crucified him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain from the 'Acts' of Pontius Pilate." (First Apology, 35).
Obviously, Martyr would not have referred to a book that didn't exist, or to a passage that didn't exist in a book, since he was writing a defense of Christ.
Phlegon's Chronicles are also referred to. He is cited by Origen (4:455) as saying, "Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails." He also mentioned "the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquake which took place" (Origen, Contra Celsus, 14). Julius Africanus confirms the same passages.(These people lived too late to have any first hand knowledge of a Jesus, therefore not credible).
The resulting, non-biblical passages show us the following points, as summarized by Norman Geisler:
"(1) Jesus was from Nazareth; (2) he lived a wise and virtuous life; (3) he was crucified in Palestine under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king; (4) he was believed by his disciples to have been raised from the dead three days later; (5) his enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats they called 'sorcery'; (6) his small band of disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading even as far as Rome; (7) his disciples denied polytheism, lived moral lives, and worshipped Christ as Divine. This picture confirms the view of Christ presented in the New Testament Gospels." (Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics). (These a are all typical Cristian arguments. Unreal).
:think: