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can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

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  • Or Barabas? Or over a hundred other points?

    The saints raised from the dead at the crucifixion?

    Could it be that the writings about Christ by Jewish and pagan origins are scanty because they were not Christians and simply had no interest as Christianity only started out small and obscure.

    Christian writings is enough to go historically by.

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    • Originally posted by jjjg

      Or Barabas? Or over a hundred other points?

      The saints raised from the dead at the crucifixion?

      Could it be that the writings about Christ by Jewish and pagan origins are scanty because they were not Christians and simply had no interest as Christianity only started out small and obscure.

      Christian writings is enough to go historically by.
      "Small and obscure" is not how I'd describe the resurrection of dead folks who walked around in Jerusalem.

      Nor is the butchery of infants by Herod. Josephus, I should note, had no love for this despot and described many of his outrages. This one went unnoticed, for some reason...




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      • Christian writings there, Granite. Stick to the the main proof.

        Your hinging on some obscure writer as Josephus as some sort of proof doesn't prove anything but that he was an obscure writer.

        Let's stick with new Testament writings.

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        • Originally posted by jjjg

          Christian writings there, Granite. Stick to the the main proof.

          Your hinging on some obscure writer as Josephus as some sort of proof doesn't prove anything but that he was an obscure writer.

          Let's stick with new Testament writings.
          The fact that you are actually referring to Flavius Josephus as obscure proves you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

          Josephus was the primary Jewish historian of his day, and from him we derive much of our information about the Jewish wars and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was (and is) anything but obscure. He was an authority in his lifetime and remains one today.

          By the way: you're the one trying to use Josephus as some kind of "proof" for the historicity of Jesus. I'm certainly not. I think the fact that Christian apologists forged passages in his "Antiquities" is proof enough of Josephus' respect and importance. So if you're admitting or pretending that one of your proofs comes from an "obscure" historian, I'm not the one with the problem.




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          • Granite, I don't care about Josephus or Pliny the Younger or any other writers of that time.

            I have looked at the sites about Josephus and its the same old arguments that some don't believe none of his writings are of historical worth while others argue they do. Some say the Christian doctrine is authentic and others don't which my link supported in the first place.

            Let's deal with Christian writing and what closer link do we have to the past than the Roman Catholic church.

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            • Originally posted by jjjg

              Granite, I don't care about Josephus or Pliny the Younger or any other writers of that time.

              I have looked at the sites about Josephus and its the same old arguments that some don't believe none of his writings are of historical worth while others argue they do. Some say the Christian doctrine is authentic and others don't which my link supported in the first place.

              Let's deal with Christian writing and what closer link do we have to the past than the Roman Catholic church.
              So secular history contemporary with "Christ" means nothing. Uh-huh. Well, that's one way to position an argument: eliminate anything that doesn't support what you believe. Using that rationale I could insist we stick to secular historians and disregard the Bible altogether in this discussion.

              The Roman Catholic Church, established as an institution centuries after Jesus' (supposed?) life, is hardly the closest link.
              Last edited by Granite; October 13th, 2004, 01:20 PM.




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              • Granite, we are supposed to take your "secular contemporary" history seriously when you make such a dumb comment about the Catholic church.

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                • Originally posted by jjjg

                  Granite, we are supposed to take your "secular contemporary" history seriously when you make such a dumb comment about the Catholic church.
                  Triple J, you're not in a position to start calling names when you think Josephus is somehow "obscure." Next.




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                  • From the articles I read about some do consider his writing obscure. next. By the way, I mentioned the Talmud speaking of Jesus historicity and you wrote that one off. Next.

                    The whole point of this thread was if there was any writing outside of the Bible about Jesus and that is already proven, josephus excluded or not.

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                    • http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

                      Maybe you should actually read the link this time before writing it off first.

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                      • You guys maybe we should agree to disagree. The link agrees that from a non-Christian source, that the writings that refer to Christ are scanty and erronous but the article accounts for this and even if erronous it still points to the existence of a historical person named Jesus.

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                        • It can be argued that, at the time Josephus was writing, there weren't any Christian sources.

                          And "obscure"? You're not doing your credibility any favours...
                          What Would Cthulhu Do?

                          He who knows one religion knows none. - Max Muller

                          That's the kind of liberal thinking that leads to being eaten! - Principal Snyder, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

                          Abortions for some, miniature American flags for the rest! - Kang as Bob Dole, The Simpsons

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                          • The obscure was a screwup on my part, sorry.

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                            • Originally posted by granite1010

                              The fact that you are actually referring to Flavius Josephus as obscure proves you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

                              Josephus was the primary Jewish historian of his day, and from him we derive much of our information about the Jewish wars and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was (and is) anything but obscure. He was an authority in his lifetime and remains one today.

                              By the way: you're the one trying to use Josephus as some kind of "proof" for the historicity of Jesus. I'm certainly not. I think the fact that Christian apologists forged passages in his "Antiquities" is proof enough of Josephus' respect and importance. So if you're admitting or pretending that one of your proofs comes from an "obscure" historian, I'm not the one with the problem.
                              Again very good point and jjjg wanted to get paid by using somebody he doesn`t even know about, what ashame .


                              here we go again in the evidence of christ loops games.

                              Keep up the good work and good information and facts,
                              www.revivaldisco.com

                              Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

                              1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
                              1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

                              Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
                              Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
                              Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
                              Evangelist c.moore

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jjjg

                                From the articles I read about some do consider his writing obscure. next. By the way, I mentioned the Talmud speaking of Jesus historicity and you wrote that one off. Next.

                                The whole point of this thread was if there was any writing outside of the Bible about Jesus and that is already proven, josephus excluded or not.
                                There is also writting out side of the story of santa claus , but does it make santa claus true with all his rain deers and christmas gift to the whole world in one day??

                                This is the same anology you are using about Christ, as my mythology friend say`s.
                                www.revivaldisco.com

                                Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

                                1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
                                1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

                                Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
                                Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
                                Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
                                Evangelist c.moore

                                Comment

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