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can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

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  • Apples and oranges?

    Jesus life and scripture has been studied more by historians than anyone in history and if all indirect and direct (yes the New Testament is historical doctrine) overwhelmingly point to a person named Jesus.

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    • Originally posted by jjjg

      granite, I quoted this right out of Collier's encyclopedia. So you can find any excuse you want. Objective historians do view it as historical doctrine and study it as such.

      By the way, they found Peter's burial, and John the Baptist too. Finding out these people including Caiphas existed add to the knowledge that Christ existed.
      Oh. Glad to see you at least cite your sources.

      This isn't an excuse, it's a fact. Not all rabbis agree with what others say about the Talmud, anymore than Christian theologians agree.

      Peter's "tomb" is a legend concocted (understandably) by the Church of Rome. No more weight than the Turin Shroud, the birthplace of Jesus, or other "finds" the Catholic Church fed their followers over the centuries.




      Comment


      • Originally posted by jjjg

        Apples and oranges?

        Jesus life and scripture has been studied more by historians than anyone in history and if all indirect and direct (yes the New Testament is historical doctrine) overwhelmingly point to a person named Jesus.
        You make a very good point: it is historical DOCTRINE, not historical FACT.




        Comment


        • What do you mean site my sources. I haven't seen you sight anything except sweeping comments that you are a historian of ancient Rome. You haven't backed up any of your claims.

          I should of said historical documents. What are historical facts to you Granite.

          They have found Peter's burial place in the catacombs under the Vatican.
          Last edited by jjjg; September 27th, 2004, 03:03 PM.

          Comment


          • My post from another thread

            Keypurr Response:
            It seems to me if God was going to build a church with a figurehead like Peter, he would document it in scripture. The Bible only says he preached around the eastern side of the Med Sea. Now they say they have found his bones in Jerusalem. Peter was claimed to be the first Bishop of Rome and executed by Nero. However scripture says he was in Jerusalem, 1800 miles away at that time.

            Interesting words from the web site below.

            The Catholic Church says that Peter was Pope in Rome from 41 to 66 A.D., a period of twenty-five years, but the Bible shows a different story. The book of the Acts of the Apostles (in either the Catholic or Protestant Bible) records the following: Peter was preaching the Gospel to the circumcision (the Jews) in Caesarea and Joppa in Palestine, ministering unto the household of Cornelius, which is a distance of 1,800 miles from Rome (Acts 10:23, 24). Soon after, about the year 44 A.D. (Acts 12), Peter was cast into prison in Jerusalem by Herod, but he was released by an angel. From 46 to 52 A.D., we read in the 13th chapter that he was in Jerusalem preaching the difference between Law and Grace. Saul was converted in 34 A.D. and became Paul the Apostle (Acts 9). Paul tells us that three years after his conversion in 37 A.D., he "went up to Jerusalem to see Peter" (Galatians 1:18), and in 51 A.D., fourteen years later, he again went up to Jerusalem (Gal. 2:1, 8), Peter being mentioned. Soon after that he met Peter in Antioch, and as Paul says, "Withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed," Gal. 2:11. The evidence is abundant, the truth is clear from the Scriptures which have never failed. It would be breathtaking to read of the boldness of Paul in dealing with Peter. Very few, if any, have withstood a Pope and lived (except in these days when everybody seems to withstand him). If Peter were Pope it would have been no different. Paul does not only withstand Peter but rebukes him and blames him of being at fault.

            Read the entire story here. It is very interesting. You don't have to believe it. But some in the church do.

            http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm
            Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

            Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

            Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

            Comment


            • Just wait 10 years.
              GOD HAS PROMISED US IMMORTALITY

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jjjg

                Moore, Just out of curiosity. Is you teacher Christian? What is he/she getting at?
                This is what he is getting at:

                Basically, there are no non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any known historian of the time during and after Jesus's purported advent. Walker says, "No literate person of his own time mentioned him in any known writing." Eminent Hellenistic Jewish historian and philosopher Philo (20 B.C.E.-50 C.E.), alive at the purported time of Jesus, makes no mention of him. Nor do any of the some 40 other historians who wrote during the first one to two centuries of the Common Era


                In order to understand what is meant by an "historical Jesus," consider King Midas in Greek mythology. The story that King Midas turned everything he touched into gold is clearly nonsense, yet despite this we know that there was a real King Midas. Archaeologists have excavated his tomb and found his skeletal remains. The Greeks who told the story of Midas and his golden touch clearly intended people to identify him with the real Midas. So although the story of the golden touch is fictional, the story is about a person whose existence is known as a fact--the "historical Midas." In the case of Jesus, however, there is no single person whose existence is known as a fact and who is also intended to be the subject of the Jesus stories, i.e. there is no historical Jesus.


                When confronted by a Christian missionary, one should immediately point out that the very existence of Jesus has not been proven. When missionaries argue they usually appeal to emotions rather than to reason and they will attempt to make you feel embarrassed about denying the historicity of Jesus. The usual response is something like "Isn't denying the existence of Jesus just as silly as denying the existence of Julius Caesar or Queen Elizabeth?" A popular variation of this response used especially against Jews is "Isn't denying the existence of Jesus like denying the Holocaust?"

                One should then point out that there are ample historical sources confirming the existence of Julius Caesar, Queen Elizabeth or whoever else is named, while there is no corresponding evidence for Jesus.
                To be perfectly thorough you should take time to do some research on the historical personalities mentioned by the missionaries and present hard evidence of their existence. At the same time you should challenge the missionaries to provide similar evidence of Jesus's existence. You should point out that although the existence of Julius Caesar, or Queen Elizabeth, etc., is accepted worldwide, the same is not true of Jesus. In the Far East where the major religions are Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism and Confucianism, Jesus is considered to be just another character in Western religious mythology, on a par with Thor, Zeus and Osiris. Most Hindus do not believe in Jesus, but those who do consider him to be one of the many avatars of the Hindu god Vishnu. Muslims certainly believe in Jesus but they reject the New Testament story and consider him to be a prophet who announced the coming of Muhammed. They explicitly deny that he was ever crucified.

                To sum up, there is no story of Jesus which is uniformly accepted worldwide.It is this fact which puts Jesus on a different level to established historical personalities. If the missionaries use the "Holocaust reply," you should point out that the Holocaust is well-documented and that there are numerous eyewitness reports. It should be pointed out that most of the people who deny the Holocaust have turned out to be antisemitic hate-mongers with fraudulent credentials. On the other hand, millions of honest people in Asia, who make up the majority of the world's population, have failed to be convinced by the Christian story of Jesus since there is no compelling evidence for its authenticity. The missionaries will insist that the story of Jesus is a well-established fact and will argue that there is "plenty of evidence supporting it." One should then insist on seeing this evidence and refuse to listen any further until they produce it.

                ( this is why now when I ask my professor to answer question people here ask he doen`t want to debate or answer what he say´s is non sense foolish people who specially won`t research and is not willing to investegate for themselves so they will know a little what they are fighting against which is reality.)

                If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the whole New Testament story come from in the first place? The Hebrew name for Christians has always been Notzrim. This name is derived from the Hebrew word neitzer, which means a shoot or sprout--an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already people called Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah (c. 100 B.C.E.). Although modern Christians claim that Christianity only started in the first century C.E., it is clear that the first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in existence for about 150 years. One of the most
                notorious Notzrim was Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri.
                www.revivaldisco.com

                Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

                1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
                1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

                Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
                Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
                Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
                Evangelist c.moore

                Comment


                • Originally posted by keypurr

                  My post from another thread

                  Keypurr Response:
                  It seems to me if God was going to build a church with a figurehead like Peter, he would document it in scripture. The Bible only says he preached around the eastern side of the Med Sea. Now they say they have found his bones in Jerusalem. Peter was claimed to be the first Bishop of Rome and executed by Nero. However scripture says he was in Jerusalem, 1800 miles away at that time.

                  Interesting words from the web site below.

                  The Catholic Church says that Peter was Pope in Rome from 41 to 66 A.D., a period of twenty-five years, but the Bible shows a different story. The book of the Acts of the Apostles (in either the Catholic or Protestant Bible) records the following: Peter was preaching the Gospel to the circumcision (the Jews) in Caesarea and Joppa in Palestine, ministering unto the household of Cornelius, which is a distance of 1,800 miles from Rome (Acts 10:23, 24). Soon after, about the year 44 A.D. (Acts 12), Peter was cast into prison in Jerusalem by Herod, but he was released by an angel. From 46 to 52 A.D., we read in the 13th chapter that he was in Jerusalem preaching the difference between Law and Grace. Saul was converted in 34 A.D. and became Paul the Apostle (Acts 9). Paul tells us that three years after his conversion in 37 A.D., he "went up to Jerusalem to see Peter" (Galatians 1:18), and in 51 A.D., fourteen years later, he again went up to Jerusalem (Gal. 2:1, 8), Peter being mentioned. Soon after that he met Peter in Antioch, and as Paul says, "Withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed," Gal. 2:11. The evidence is abundant, the truth is clear from the Scriptures which have never failed. It would be breathtaking to read of the boldness of Paul in dealing with Peter. Very few, if any, have withstood a Pope and lived (except in these days when everybody seems to withstand him). If Peter were Pope it would have been no different. Paul does not only withstand Peter but rebukes him and blames him of being at fault.

                  Read the entire story here. It is very interesting. You don't have to believe it. But some in the church do.

                  http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peters-jerusalem-tomb.htm

                  Why don`t you try this resouce ?

                  It goes to the real original peter who is copied in the bible so I question what tomb was found and who really was in it?

                  http://www.reformation.org/simon_pet...mon_magus.html
                  www.revivaldisco.com

                  Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

                  1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
                  1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

                  Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
                  Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
                  Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
                  Evangelist c.moore

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jjjg

                    What do you mean site my sources. I haven't seen you sight anything except sweeping comments that you are a historian of ancient Rome. You haven't backed up any of your claims.

                    I should of said historical documents. What are historical facts to you Granite.

                    They have found Peter's burial place in the catacombs under the Vatican.
                    I've done my homework. If the best you can do is run to Collier's, well, knock yourself out.

                    Peter's "burial place" is by no means a cut and dry issue, and most of the Protestant community has never accepted the "sites" and "relics" touted by the Catholic Church.




                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by granite1010

                      I've done my homework. If the best you can do is run to Collier's, well, knock yourself out.

                      Peter's "burial place" is by no means a cut and dry issue, and most of the Protestant community has never accepted the "sites" and "relics" touted by the Catholic Church.
                      www.revivaldisco.com

                      Proverb:3:13: Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

                      1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
                      1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

                      Proverb:12:15: The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
                      Proverb:12:16: A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.
                      Proverb:12:17: He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
                      Evangelist c.moore

                      Comment


                      • Whatever, granite. Keep going with the general sweeping statements. Apples and oranges.

                        C.Moore, if you cannot defend your beliefs than why remain a Christian? It all could be Osiris myths.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jjjg

                          Whatever, granite. Keep going with the general sweeping statements. Apples and oranges.

                          C.Moore, if you cannot defend your beliefs than why remain a Christian? It all could be Osiris myths.
                          If you actually think that everyone agrees that Peter's tomb has been conclusively and without doubt discovered, then you're simply naive or misinformed. This is just a case in point.

                          But you do hit on a very good question. Because it probably IS all a myth: Horus, Osiris, Jesus, everyone else. Nothing in Christianity is unique at all; if anything it's a tapestry.




                          Comment


                          • Can give any refute to the argument, granite. This is just like the link I gave you and you never responded to.

                            Comment


                            • C Moore
                              I check out the site you mentioned. It is not true. Peter was never in Rome. I am convinced of that. Do not be misled by old wives tales.
                              Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

                              Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                              Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

                              Comment


                              • jjjg, can you defend your belief about Peter in Rome?

                                Even the church is divided on this issue.

                                I don't want to hurt your feelings because I value your friendship, but I think the RCC is evil. It has distorted the truth since day one. I have many loved ones in the RCC, my great grandmother was an RCC. But I stand by my statement. I think the "man of sin" is sitting on a throne in Rome. In Revelation the church is called the "Mother of Harlots". Now if she is the Mother, you can guess who the daughters are.
                                Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

                                Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                                Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

                                Comment

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