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Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

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  • #31
    Originally Posted by Nang
    Thus, before creation, Father and Son covenanted to redeem men who would most certainly prove to be finite and sinful (fall short of the glory of God).


    Originally posted by ghost View Post
    How can that possibly be, since everything is already known?
    Redemption was established by the Everlasting Covenant between Father and Son, prior to the decree to create. That is the Supralapsarian view. Redemption was "known" before anything else was put into place, including creation.

    Here is the logical order of divine decrees in eternity:

    1. God the Father unconditionally elected to redeem a people for God the Son, to share in His inherited glory, to the glory of His name.

    2. This redemption was decreed to come through the Son's sacrificial and substitutional work on the cross.

    3. God decreed that all men would fall short of the glory of God.

    4. God decreed to create and manifest these purposes, to the glory of His name.

    The above all were temporally brought about in time and proven in reverse order:

    1. God created.

    2. Man fell short of the glory of God.

    3. Christ redeemed a people by His cross work.

    4. These redeemed people share Christ's inheritance in glory.

    Thus, according to this (very simplified) explanation, there is no room for God not knowing any detail of His purposes and intents. What was decreed, ordained and determined before time, was perfectly achieved in time.


    So, according to you (and Calvinism) God has every detestable human act throughout "earthly" history eternally present in His mind, because He knows "all" things?
    Yes.

    Nothing has ever been hidden from His sight, or beyond His remedy and ability to extend grace and everlasting life.

    Nang
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Nang View Post
      2. This redemption was decreed to come through the Son's sacrificial and substitutional work on the cross.

      3. God decreed that all men would fall short of the glory of God.

      4. God decreed to create and manifest these purposes, to the glory of His name.

      The above all were temporally brought about in time and proven in reverse order:

      1. God created.

      2. Man fell short of the glory of God.

      3. Christ redeemed a people by His cross work.

      4. These redeemed people share Christ's inheritance in glory.

      Thus, according to this (very simplified) explanation, there is no room for God not knowing any detail of His purposes and intents. What was decreed, ordained and determined before time, was perfectly achieved in time.
      I can see that you have fully and completely missed the point. Thanks for trying.

      Yes.
      wow. Now I know that you not only believe that God purposed every detestable act throughout earthly history, but everyone of those acts have eternally been in His mind. Therefore, according to you, the god of Calvinism not only eternally thinks about children being molested but has decreed every child molesting act.

      I've heard all I need to hear. Thanks for clearing things up.

      Comment


      • #33
        [QUOTE=ghost;2821848]

        Now I know that you not only believe that God purposed every detestable act throughout earthly history, but everyone of those acts have eternally been in His mind. Therefore, according to you, the god of Calvinism not only eternally thinks about children being molested but has decreed every child molesting act.
        You specifically asked about what God has always known. What God has always known is theologically distinguished from God's purposes and good pleasures.

        God decrees were not based upon His foreknowledge (however complete and absolute His knowledge certainly has always been), but God's decrees were based upon His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name. This is a God-centered understanding. (Ephesians 1:9-12; Romans 8:28-30; 9:14-24)

        I would suppose you would make the common and erroneous Arminian argument, that God elected to extend grace to sinners according to His foreknowledge of their choices, rather than according to His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name. Such proves to be a man-centered understanding.

        Until you are able to distinguish between divine intent and foreknowledge, you will continue to be confused and thus find it needful to resort to emotional tactics; blaspheming and accusing God of causing the sins of men.

        Nang
        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
        Gordon H. Clark

        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
        Charles Spurgeon

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Nang View Post
          Originally Posted by Nang
          Thus, before creation, Father and Son covenanted to redeem men who would most certainly prove to be finite and sinful (fall short of the glory of God).




          Redemption was established by the Everlasting Covenant between Father and Son,
          Then, one may say, all need God!
          So, what?

          believe it!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
            Then, one may say, all need God!
            "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:11-12

            These words cannot be applied universally to all men, for not all men are brought to a believing trust in Jesus Christ.

            Not all souls have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev. 20:15)

            Nang
            "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

            " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
            Gordon H. Clark

            "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
            Charles Spurgeon

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ghost View Post
              I think I understand what you are saying.

              If the temporal events are a fulfillment of His eternal purpose, then would you say that those temporal events were eternally fully known? If so, then how can anything ever be conceived as a purpose?

              I understand that I'm not formulating my questions as well as I'd like, but I'm trying to understand how it is perceived by Calvinists (and apparently others) that all things have eternally been present in the mind of God and yet Him having the ability to create or conceive anything in His mind.



              I'm not sure I understand this. Please elaborate.
              In my estimation, we are guessing because we are trying to apprehend the mind and purposes of God (finite cannot apprehend infinite).
              Rather, I would redirect some of these questions for a different appreciation:
              1) God is infinite which means He is beyond our ability to completely grasp. My dog knows to go potty outside, but I don't think she knows why. She can only comprehend so much with what God has given her.
              We likewise, have finite limitations.
              2) Nothing is outside of God. This is a complete paradigm shift in our thinking from ourselves. We think mostly about things completely outside of ourselves in finiteness because we are finite. It is natural for us to do so, but God has given us glimpses and directions for how to think of Him.
              Isa 40:18 To whom can you compare God? To what image can you liken him?
              Isa 40:25 "To whom can you compare me? Whom do I resemble?"
              says the Holy One
              Isa 40:27 Why do you say, Jacob, Why do you say, Israel, "The LORD is not aware of what is happening to me, My God is not concerned with my vindication"?
              Isa 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is an eternal God, the creator of the whole earth. He does not get tired or weary; there is no limit to his wisdom.

              Isa 41:28 I look, but there is no one, among them there is no one who serves as an adviser, that I might ask questions and receive answers.

              Isa 43:10 You are My witnesses, says Jehovah, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me.
              Isa 43:11 I, I am Jehovah; and there is none to save besides Me.

              Isa 45:18 For so says Jehovah the Creator of the heavens, He is God, forming the earth and making it; He makes it stand, not creating it empty, but forming it to be inhabited. I am Jehovah, and there is no other.
              Isa 45:21 Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.

              Isa 46:9 Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
              Continuing:
              Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me? Peter was grieved because He said to him a third time, Do you love Me? And he said to Him, Lord, You know all things, You know that I love You. Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep.
              Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
              Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
              Philosophically, that is, by our reasoning, we understand that nothing exists without God. As the scripture tells us that all things consist by Him, the extent of our actions and thoughts must flow from His sustaining them. Whatever proceeds, then, must necessarily originate in Him as the source of all things. As I said, we think about things as separate from ourselves. Beside God, there is nothing. He is the whole of His being.
              Logically as well, we know that He is infinite and yet we comprehend this by thinking spatially. When Jesus says "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth" He is telling us that our apprehension of this must transcend the physical.
              Let us consider Enyart's question: "Can God write a new song?" In answering, we have to take into account at least two things, that it would necessarily exist only by His sustaining power, and as such, that power has always existed. Also, we must recognize our own finiteness. For us, things are new because we are finite. That is, if we see something outside of ourselves, it is indeed new to us.

              An illustration: There is nothing new to my body. I didn't wake up today with anything different. It would be kind of silly to ask if I could have a new arm today. It isn't a restriction on my being and certainly doesn't make me a stone. To say I'm 'stuck' this way isn't very meaningful to any of us. I am exactly what I'm supposed to be and need nothing 'new' to define my physical body meaningfully. In the same way, we have things that simply don't need addition. I don't have to go out and buy new furniture, my house if fully furnished. Now of course we experience change and the need for change because of the very fact that we are finite (things expire, things need to progress for us). We can't buy anything new for the God who has everything. He already owns it, even if we tried. That thing, whatever it may be, comes into being by Him. It is a finite thing dependent upon the infinite for its existence.
              In a nutshell, this is the crucial point. God is independent and we are fully dependent. God is infinite, we are finite. God is the primary cause of all, we and what we do is secondary. Philosophically then, I would submit that God is all He will ever be because there is nothing outside of Him, and, being infinite, He is already wherever, whenever, and however anything will be because everything proceeds from Him and consists "...without Him, nothing would exist, that exists..."

              I know I haven't said anything definitive here, I'm just trying to broaden the questions in hopes that we will see both our finite apprehension and catch a glimpse of our infinite God (such is the purpose of my sig).
              In Him

              -Lon
              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

              ? Yep

              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

              Comment


              • #37
                Well no, yet they choose the lessor path.
                So, what?

                believe it!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
                  Well no, yet they choose the lessor path.
                  All sinners are on the "lessor path" due to the choice of Adam, and only by God's choosing to extend His grace, are any souls shown the narrow gate to everlasting life.
                  "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                  " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                  Gordon H. Clark

                  "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                  Charles Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Nang View Post
                    All sinners are on the "lessor path" due to the choice of Adam, and only by God's choosing to extend His grace, are any souls shown the narrow gate to everlasting life.
                    That is just a bit too redundant.
                    So, what?

                    believe it!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ghost View Post
                      Calvinism would have us believe that since God is eternal, He knows all things that are, have been or will be. Is this true?

                      Have I represented Calvinism's view correctly?
                      Ghost,

                      This is actually the basic view of Catholic and mainstream Protestant alike. The only group denying God's knowledge of past, present, and future are open theists, who deny God can know the future.

                      Don't know why you think this is just a Calvinist issue.

                      A good starting point is Shaw's exposition here:
                      http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_02.html

                      BTW, don't be a stranger. Good to see you posting from time to time.

                      AMR
                      Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; October 20th, 2011, 12:31 AM.
                      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                      Do you confess?
                      Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                      AMR's Randomata Blog
                      Learn Reformed Doctrine
                      I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                      Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                      Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
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                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Yes, one may be OSAS and MAD and still believe God knows the future. What so many assume is it has to be control
                        So, what?

                        believe it!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ghost View Post
                          How then does God, in His mind, take into account and not take into account our sins eternally?

                          Isn't it limiting God's ability to think a new thought if He knows everything eternally?
                          I'm not exactly sure I understand the question. You know that I am not in the camp that believes God knows the entire future, correct?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ghost View Post
                            Isn't it limiting God's ability to think a new thought if He knows everything eternally?
                            God does not think as do finite creatures. He is not deliberating. God knows and His knowledge is intuitive--not discursive wherein we as creatures, accrete knowledge proceeding logically from the known to the unknown. God knows in one eternal, all-comprehensive act, not successive.

                            God's knowledge is is independent, i.e., it does in no way depend upon his creatures or their actions, but solely upon his own infinite intuition of all things possible in the light of his own reason, and of all things actual and future in the light of his own eternal purpose.

                            A "new thought" for God would mean He did not know, hence was not perfectly omniscient, including knowing all knowable possibilities.

                            AMR
                            Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                            Do you confess?
                            Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                            AMR's Randomata Blog
                            Learn Reformed Doctrine
                            I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                            Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                            Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                            The best TOL Social Group: here.
                            If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
                            Why?


                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Nang View Post
                              You specifically asked about what God has always known. What God has always known is theologically distinguished from God's purposes and good pleasures.
                              I absolutely agree that we can separate His purpose, will, intent, desire, "good pleasure" etc., from what He knows, but again, you are missing the big picture, and I cannot understand how or why you don't see it.

                              God decrees were not based upon His foreknowledge
                              That is not what I'm suggesting at all.
                              God's decrees were based upon His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name.
                              My view of God is that God is good. Whatever God decrees, purposes, intends, wills, etc., is good. And this is why the god of Calvinism (who is accused of knowing all things) cannot be good. I will explain why (though I'm not sure you'll understand) after I address the other posts.
                              This is a God-centered understanding. (Ephesians 1:9-12; Romans 8:28-30; 9:14-24)
                              Eph 1:9-12 does not prove that God knows all things eternally in His mind. It only addresses, what I fully believe, that God has purposed His will toward us concerning Christ. All these things being so before the foundation of the world.

                              Rom 2:28-30 simply tells us that all those in Christ, according to His foreknowledge concerning His purpose (which He, being God, can bring to pass) are predestined to be conformed to His image (an event) having called, justified, and glorified us. Again, there is no evidence of any of this being eternally in the mind of God. For ALL things to be eternally known by God removes the possibility of anything being conceived by God.

                              Rom 9:14-24 concerns Gentiles being called also

                              I would suppose you would make the common and erroneous Arminian argument, that God elected to extend grace to sinners according to His foreknowledge of their choices, rather than according to His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name.
                              Nope. Not what I believe, nor does it make anymore sense than what you believe.
                              Such proves to be a man-centered understanding.
                              Just like what you believe.

                              Until you are able to distinguish between divine intent and foreknowledge, you will continue to be confused and thus find it needful to resort to emotional tactics; blaspheming and accusing God of causing the sins of men.
                              The god you believe in is blasphemous, as you have plainly shown us in this thread, having accused Him of knowing all things eternally. Perhaps you would like to retract that declaration, though I suppose you won't, because you still fail to understand it's implications.

                              God is "eternally" good, and all that He purposes, intends, wills, desires, is good, and He, being God, is fully capable of bringing His good intentions to pass, without having to fully know all things eternally.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Lon View Post
                                In my estimation, we are guessing because we are trying to apprehend the mind and purposes of God (finite cannot apprehend infinite).
                                Okay Lon, but Calvinism attempts to do this by claiming that God knows everything eternally, which is fabricating a God that is very disturbing, and in fact not a good God. It would be impossible for Him to be.


                                1) God is infinite which means He is beyond our ability to completely grasp.
                                Yet, Calvinism claims to, and attributes to Him eternal knowledge of all things. Would you like to state that Calvinism is wrong about this? I believe that you believe that God is good, and He cannot be if He knows all things eternally.

                                2) Nothing is outside of God.
                                Really? God is evil and good? Are you sure?
                                God has given us glimpses and directions for how to think of Him.
                                And He never gives us the idea that He knows all things eternally.

                                Whatever proceeds, then, must necessarily originate in Him as the source of all things.
                                God is the source of all things good, for God is good, not evil.

                                And here is the crux of your problem... If God knows all things evil eternally, then they are just as much a part of God as His goodness. If His foreknowledge consists of every evil perpetrated by man and is eternally in His Mind than evil is part of who God is. Do you believe as Nang does, that all things earthy are eternally known, or worse, decreed by God? Do you believe, and suggest, that Calvinism teaches that every murder, rape, homosexual act, child molestation, and other detestable behaviors have ALWAYS been a part of the knowledge of God, making them part of who He is?

                                Let us consider Enyart's question: "Can God write a new song?" In answering, we have to take into account at least two things, that it would necessarily exist only by His sustaining power, and as such, that power has always existed. Also, we must recognize our own finiteness. For us, things are new because we are finite. That is, if we see something outside of ourselves, it is indeed new to us.
                                It doesn't matter what is new to us. Forget about us, we are discussing what YOU (Calvinism) claim that God knows eternally (all things). Either He does or He does not. If YOU claim He does, then God has never been separated from evil, for it is in His mind eternally (according to you).

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