Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

[DFT_Dave]

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave
There's a big difference between God seeing us eat an apple as we are doing it in the present or had eaten an apple in the past and God seeing us eating an apple in the future. If we are "finite" how can we have done anything other than in the past and be doing anything other than in the present? Does'nt finite mean" limited"? If so, then are we not limited to moment by moment activity only?

Of course we are limited (finite). God isn't (infinite).

Then we have no future activity for God to see.

--Dave

 

[Nang]

How then is anyone cast out of his presence?

No one is. The wicked are cast out of His glorious realm; but God being omniscient, controls even those cast into hell. (Who do you think decreed and sustains hellfire, forever and ever?)

He oversees them, but they are castaways from His favor and glory.

Did God create communication, thought, movement? He did not.

I believe God IS communication (Logos) and God is the first "mover" (Creator).

So creation is the material (temporal) manifestation of all that God is and all that He purposed (moved) to reveal to creatures (through the communication of His Word) of His making.

Cannot separate God's everlasting purposes from His Word (communication).

Nang

 

[DFT_Dave]

You have to have movement without a beginning because God moves and yet has no beginning. How He moves is different than we conceive, I believe.

Your "inconceivablity" defense is not only an argument from ignorance, "I can't conceive it, movement in God", it is also a blatant contradiction, "but I know he cannot move",

--Dave

 

[OMEGA]

God does not know what you are going to do next.:readthis:

The Choice is yours.:thumb:

-- God deals with big things like the Government Leaders.:banana:

God sends Satan to deal with the little people.:wave2:

You are here to experience Life :dog:

and Learn that Living under Satan's Government causes suffering.:grave:

 

[ghost]

No one is. The wicked are cast out of His glorious realm; but God being omniscient, controls even those cast into hell. (Who do you think decreed and sustains hellfire, forever and ever?)

"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"

I believe God IS communication (Logos) and God is the first "mover" (Creator).

So creation is the material (temporal) manifestation of all that God is and all that He purposed (moved) to reveal to creatures (through the communication of His Word) of His making.

Cannot separate God's everlasting purposes from His Word (communication).

You cannot have movement, communication or thought without succession.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Having no beginning, there is no place or point which can be measured because His existence goes both forward and backward from any point you'd wish to measure duration. If you acquiesce His eternal nonbeginning, this very statement means He is without time.

When/if we are involved in this discussion further, I'll simply refer back to this post. It is a sound proof that cannot be thwarted or escaped.

There is a "beginning point" of God's creation of the world in which he does something he had never done before and that's what poves God does things in sequence. If you don't agree with this then you must say the world is eternal.

You have proved only that God has no age. :duh:

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

God is not becoming. God is fully actualized. God is.

There is no movement within the Godhead. For more, see the term perichoresis as relates to God. Think of the term as meaning "shared life" or "mutual indwelling". You are in the deep end of the pool now!

AMR

Where in the Bible can we find that phrase, "fully actualized"?

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

To the open theist any verse that "clearly" portrays God is one that supports their presuppositions about him. When they encounter God with hands and feet, or hearing, or seeing, well, these are merely accommodations to our finitude. Yet, when the open theists run headlong into the same accommodations to our finitude, well, no, of course they are wooden literalisms to be reified by the openist. God does not think discursively, gr, nor does he sit around deliberating. When God reveals himself in this manner in Scripture, it is to give us a means of thinking about him, for we cannot otherwise, unless we were gods ourselves.

For you, gr, there is no transcendence of the divine. Apparently God is just a super-being, something far greater than man, but really not wholly other. God does not think like a man, right? :AMR: So why do you want to make him thus?

AMR

If we are created in God's image and likeness how can God be wholly other? Is the phrase "wholly other" found in the Bible?

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

He is rather everywhere. A question for further thought: Where is God? If you believe He is someplace coeternal with Him, then He is subject to the laws of the universe (or whatever is greater) rather than it subject to Him.

Yet again here. Does God move outside of Himself or inside of Himself? Same problems as above. Ultimately, this is why the open view is getting a cult label and driving toward heresy status. The bottom line is whether God is God over everything that exists or, if as the ov asserts, He is subject to something or somethings else.

This, at least to us, is a denial of who God is and making Him into man's thoughts and parameters where He cannot logically be God. In that sense, it may progress that we believe the open view doesn't worship the God we know but one that is subject to something greater than Himself.

I pray the open theists will take this to heart. It will be the primary need of address by the open view community. It simply must deal with the consequences of their thoughts about Our Father.

Let me continue with my proof: If God is truly God, time and literally everything else must come from Him. There is absolutely no logical way to get around this.

How can space be "in God" and God be spaceless, outside of space?

If God is everywhere in space, inhabits every particle of space, then there is no difference between God and space, unless there is a place between the particles of space where God exists.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

The omni's go hand in hand. To deny one essentially denies them all. Scripture tells us God is Almighty (omnipotent). Since this is true, whatever He wills to pass necessarily must. So, His omnipotence insures omniscience, for nothing can happen apart from His power and will (understand I'm infra when I state this). Omnipresence is a scriptural given as well, though Enyart denies it.

And, if He sees everything, then He also knows everything, and with omnipotence, no future action is without His knowledge for "in Him, we live and move and have our being" and "without Him we can do nothing."

Is it 2011 for God or is it that He is relational to us in 2011? Is it really 2011 for a God with an eternal past or 2011Xa billion? No. It is not 2011 or even 2trillion for God. It is 2011 A.D. from a randomly chosen point in time. It is not 2011 for God yet He relates to us in our 2011. It is our's, not His. Why is it this difficult to wrap your head around the fact that God has no beginning therefore it is impossible for sequence? I said this before, God's past isn't over, it cannot be else He is a creation as you and I.

Once you wrap your head around this fact, any assertion of duration like unto our own is sheer nonsense. Yes, He relates to us in our durative reality, no, it cannot possibly be the only reality for Him. Its impossible.

If God see's everything from a timeless eternity, he would also be seeing it for eternity, because there would not ever be a time in God when he began to see it, nor ever be a time in God when he could stop seeing it.

If "God's past is not over" then he is still creating the world and the Bible is wrong, or not literal, when it says:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.​

--Dave

 

[Lon]

Huh? Is God ruled by love because God is love? Is God ruled by thinking because He thinks sequentially? Are we ruled by something just because we are personal beings? Duration is God's reality, not something He is subject to (whatever you mean by that).

Measures of time are not identical to time. Time is more philosophical/conceptual rather than physical. Clocks are not time. Time exists whether clocks exist or not.

No, He rules all He is and does. Let me state it yet again. I realize you are committed to your book on the subject, but the guy is wrong and here is why: Time for God goes both directions and you'll never grasp that unless you understand that His past continues forever. As such, it is impossible for God to be stuck inside of a ray of time (one directional momentum) when in fact God's eternity isn't a ray but a line. This is why the open view is wrong. There is no possible way to get around the fact that God isn't bound duratively as you and I. It absolutely, cannot happen. Again, time requires a point A and B for progression. Without it there is no such thing as time. God has no point A (beginning) and no point B (end). God is Alpha and Omega of His creation that has a point Alpha (beginning) and a point Omega (end).

This is very important, if you get nothing else, get this: If you assign God a beginning, something else made Him and He ceases to be God. The concept of time only applies to things with beginnings and ends.

 

[Lon]

Psalm 102:24 RSV "O my God," I say, "take me not hence in the midst of my days, thou whose years endure throughout all generations!"

Psalm 102:26 RSV They will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away;

I guess you'll say these verses are not to be taken literally either.

--Dave

Not seeing how they contradict anything I've said.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Not seeing how they contradict anything I've said.

You said God cannot endure. These verses say that he does. Duration means to endure.

--Dave

 

[Lon]

How can space be "in God" and God be spaceless, outside of space?

If God is everywhere in space, inhabits every particle of space, then there is no difference between God and space, unless there is a place between the particles of space where God exists.

--Dave

Too many of these Dave, I've addressed them previously, for instance, this one was explained by God being Spirit. "Space" (the universe) is created.

 

[Lon]

There is a "beginning point" of God's creation of the world in which he does something he had never done before and that's what poves God does things in sequence. If you don't agree with this then you must say the world is eternal.

You have proved only that God has no age. :duh:

--Dave

No, it proves there is a unidirectional sequence to creation. I've addressed all of these already. If God has 'no age' then the proof is that He isn't constrained by time. Doesn't that also, logically follow? "No age"= no time?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Too many of these Dave, I've addressed them previously, for instance, this one was explained by God being Spirit. "Space" (the universe) is created.

Then God's Spirit is spaceless--outside of space.

--Dave

 

[Lon]

You said God cannot endure. These verses say that he does. Duration means to endure.

--Dave

Only in the sense that He relates to His creation. It is created with unidirectional duration but God is logically beyond a singular durative direction. His past isn't over (remember me saying that two pages ago?). It is never ending.

 

[Lon]

Then God's Spirit is spaceless--outside of space.

--Dave

Agreed but also relational to it.

 

[DFT_Dave]

No, it proves there is a unidirectional sequence to creation. I've addressed all of these already. If God has 'no age' then the proof is that He isn't constrained by time. Doesn't that also, logically follow? "No age"= no time?

God is doing the creating, it's not creating itself. This is the beginng of God's doing something new, something he had never done before.

One does not have to be very bright to understand this.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Only in the sense that He relates to His creation. It is created with unidirectional duration but God is logically beyond a singular durative direction. His past isn't over (remember me saying that two pages ago?). It is never ending.

The creation is in his past.

--Dave