ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

penofareadywriter

New member
If your parents aren't responsible for your sins, how can you say this?

Your statments are not making sence to me but I will take a stab, let me know if I am stabing in the right direction.

Where I make the distinction your analogy and mine is that of KNOWLEDGE. In my analogy, the parents had EDF(EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE). In yours they did not. I am submiting that KNOWLEDGE=ACCOUNTABILITY/RESPONSIBILITY.
Luke 12:47 NIV
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.

Luke 12:48 NIV
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.


We as human parents do know FOR CERTAIN what our children will do. We as Godly parents have chidren because we belive that there is a good probibility that if we raise the up in a Godly way that they will choose to follow the Lord when they get older.
There is the difference. Risk vs Certainty. Following yet?:cheers:
 

penofareadywriter

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As an automobile maker, Chrysler knows some will abuse the car, not bring it in for tune-up, etc. They know that some will kill another through negligence and DWI's. Are they implicated? Does Chrystler get sued on these occassions? Why or why not? They know before-hand.

I absolutely disagree with your presupposition that the car maker KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE FUTURE WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY.
They could not be charged with any crime because it could not be proven that they had specific knowladge of the certaity of ANY SPECIFIC crime.
I do know that parents HAVE been charged with crimes for giving there son (who had a history of suicidal tendincys) a gun who later killed himself with it.
Why were they charged? Because of THEIR KNOWLADGE of their sons past behavior.
As I am arguing with Saul to Paul, KNOWLADGE=ACOUNTABILITY/RESBONSIBILITY.
Luke 12:47
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.

Luke 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
 

King cobra

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LIFETIME MEMBER
When John sees the Revelation of Christ, is it a true future or a fabricated one? When he speaks with the Elder, is it a real elder or a fabrication?
When He sees the Lamb of God, is it Jesus, or a fabrication?

If all of this is 'just a vision' (which doesn't erase the reality scope to me), is it going to happen exactly as is given?
I'm sorry. I'm not seeing any answers in these questions.
Jesus told John to write it all down exactly as he saw and heard. John was privvy to future happenings and experienced them. Vision or not, it was a real elder, real Lamb of God.
Ok, future happenings were revealed to John. Are you saying that he was physically transported to the future so as to actually experience them?
 

godrulz

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As an automobile maker, Chrysler knows some will abuse the car, not bring it in for tune-up, etc. They know that some will kill another through negligence and DWI's. Are they implicated? Does Chrystler get sued on these occassions? Why or why not? They know before-hand.

Like God, they knew of the possibility, not the certainty. We are not disputing probability/prediction. We are disputing EDF of future free will contingencies. Your analogy is limited and can be used by either side depending on the twist.

Revelation is general vision, not seeing a completed movie of the actual, non-existent future. This would mean that the objects of certain knowledge somehow exist before the agent brings them into existence (absurd; eternal now is philosophical, not biblical).
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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So let me git this straight. You believe the bible teaches that God is the author of rape, horrific murders, genocides, human trafficking and every other horrific evil? THIS was the theology Job got rebuked for my friend. Job believed God was the one responsible for evil. What was the truth behind the matter,Job 2:3
'Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though YOU incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."' There was are third reality that Job and his friends were blind to, namely the war that God was and is in with Satan and his angles. For the Lord asked Job Job 41:1
"Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?"
god did not say " I have "Alowed" this evil to come opon you to teach you a lesson". No. He explained how complex the created order is and how He is in a conflict that is bigger that Job.

Besides, what you said gos dirctly aginst the revealed nature of God.

1 John 1:5
God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Lam 3.33
"for he does not willingly afflict or grieve anyone"
"Rude" does not even begin to describe it, POARW, but I will answer you anyway...this time.

If by "author" you mean to say "God is responsible", you would be incorrect, for responsibility assumes accountability. God is not accountable to anyone, hence is not responsible. If by "author" you mean just as Shakesphere is the author of the play, the writer of history in which characters within that drama play out according to what the "author" wrote, then yes, God is the "author".

In Macbeth, who killed King Duncan? Shakesphere or Macbeth?

One could argue they both did...at different levels of reality. But when we look at the way we use language, we find the language that we typically use in such contexts as this one, it seems clear to me that we would not normally say that Shakespeare killed Duncan. Yes, Shakespeare wrote the murder into his play. But the murder took place in the world of the play, not the real world of the author. Macbeth did it, not Shakespeare. We sense the rightness of Macbeth paying for his crime. But we would certainly consider it very unjust if Shakespeare were tried and put to death for killing Duncan. And no one suggests that there is any problem in reconciling Shakespeare’s benevolence with his omnipotence over the world of the drama. Indeed, there is reason for us to praise Shakespeare for raising up this character, Macbeth, to show us the consequences of sin.

The difference between levels, then, may have moral, as well as metaphysical, significance. It may explain why the biblical writers, who do not hesitate to say that God brings about sin and evil, do not accuse him of wrongdoing. The relationship between God and us, of course, is different in some respects from that between an author and his characters. Most significantly, we are real and Macbeth is not. But between God and us there is a vast difference in the kind of reality and in relative status. God is the absolute controller of and authority over nature and history. He is the lawgiver, and we receive his laws. He is the head of the covenant; we are the servants. He has devised the creation for his own glory; we seek his glory, rather than our own. He makes us as the potter makes pots, for his own purposes. He has many rights and prerogatives we do not. Do these differences not put God in a different moral category as well? (see addendum below for more on this point)

The transcendence of God plays a significant role in biblical responses to the problem of evil. Because God is who he is, the covenant Lord, he is not required to defend Himself against charges of injustice. He is the judge, and we are not. Very often in Scripture, when something happens that calls God’s goodness into question, He pointedly refrains from explaining. In fact, He often rebukes those people who question him. Simply put, God is not subject to the ignorant evaluations of his creatures, like you and I!

Now you have your answer.

Lastly, for the above example, I am indebted to Wayne Grudem, who suggested the Shakesphere analogy in his Systematic Theology.


AMR



addendum:

To say God is in a different moral category is not to adopt the view of Gordon H. Clark, who argued that God, being above the moral law, is not subject to it. Certainly God has some prerogatives that he forbids to us, such as the freedom to take human life. But, for the most part, the moral laws that God imposes upon us are grounded in his own character. For example, see Ex. 20:11; Lev. 11:44–45; Matt. 5:45; 1 Pet. 1:15–16. God will not violate his own character. Yet, what Scripture clearly teaches is that man has sufficient understanding of God’s character and his eternal plan (not to mention sufficient authority) to bring accusations against him. Hence, I am within the teaching of Scripture to assert that God has ordained evil, for He must have a morally sufficient purpose for so doing. You, on the other hand, have no warrant to assign the sin of His creatures directly to God Himself. You may poorly reason your way to that conclusion. You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
 

godrulz

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God is not accountable to anyone,sums it up for me

He begs the question by defining responsibility in his own narrow way (accountability is one concept, but not the only one) and then tries to soften the logical conclusion (repugnant) of his view by playing games (cf. compatibilism loophole that negates true freedom). Determinism is indefensible no matter how many times mental gymnastics are used to salvage it. I am less than impressed (I am sure he is not impressed with me either). It is almost like self-hypnosis to keep repeating his views so they cannot be critically dismantled by opposing views that are more credible.

I am confidant that Calvinism/determinism is a problematic view, even if I am not willing to write a TOL thesis to prove my point (whole books and centuries of debate will not convince him).
 

Lon

Well-known member
He begs the question by defining responsibility in his own narrow way (accountability is one concept, but not the only one) and then tries to soften the logical conclusion (repugnant) of his view by playing games (cf. compatibilism loophole that negates true freedom). Determinism is indefensible no matter how many times mental gymnastics are used to salvage it. I am less than impressed (I am sure he is not impressed with me either). It is almost like self-hypnosis to keep repeating his views so they cannot be critically dismantled by opposing views that are more credible.

I am confidant that Calvinism/determinism is a problematic view, even if I am not willing to write a TOL thesis to prove my point (whole books and centuries of debate will not convince him).

Nor are you revealing aptitude to do so. Once inawhile I want to challenge this because you've said several pages back that Calvinists are lazy. You cannot 'always' rest on past laurels.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I'm sorry. I'm not seeing any answers in these questions.
Ok, future happenings were revealed to John. Are you saying that he was physically transported to the future so as to actually experience them?

I don't think it matters if it is a vision or physical. The fact is, he interacted in that future with an elder. We are not talking at the moment but typing back and forth. Does this mean we are not having a real conversation? I see no distinction as to physical or whatever else. It was as real as your and my conversation here. I'm not imagining you am I?

Answer this question for me, even in speculation: Was the elder a real being? Does he or will he exist in the future?
 

philosophizer

New member
No, you made a logical leap. There is no constriction to being Creator, being involved, yet not constrained to just that involvement.

Where's my leap? Can you show me?

I'm saying that if God knows the future, then its either because He can "see" it, or because He caused it. Is there another option?

If He can "see" it He must be somehow "beyond" time. Right?

If He is beyond time and is able to "see" past-present-future, then time is a "thing" or aspect of the universe and must have been created. With me?

If time was created, then it has a creator. If God is not its creator, then God is not God. If God is its creator, then He created each "scene" that is played out on the timeline-- some good, some evil. Is there anything wrong with that?

On the other hand, maybe God knows the future because when He created the heavens and the earth, He knew exactly which events would follow from His initial act of creating. Possible?

If that's so, then He knew when He created, all the good and evil actions that would result from His initial action. Correct?




Am I missing anything so far?
 

penofareadywriter

New member
"Rude" does not even begin to describe it, POARW, but I will answer you anyway...this time.

If by "author" you mean to say "God is responsible", you would be incorrect, for responsibility assumes accountability. God is not accountable to anyone, hence is not responsible. If by "author" you mean just as Shakesphere is the author of the play, the writer of history in which characters within that drama play out according to what the "author" wrote, then yes, God is the "author".

In Macbeth, who killed King Duncan? Shakesphere or Macbeth?

One could argue they both did...at different levels of reality. But when we look at the way we use language, we find the language that we typically use in such contexts as this one, it seems clear to me that we would not normally say that Shakespeare killed Duncan. Yes, Shakespeare wrote the murder into his play. But the murder took place in the world of the play, not the real world of the author. Macbeth did it, not Shakespeare. We sense the rightness of Macbeth paying for his crime. But we would certainly consider it very unjust if Shakespeare were tried and put to death for killing Duncan. And no one suggests that there is any problem in reconciling Shakespeare’s benevolence with his omnipotence over the world of the drama. Indeed, there is reason for us to praise Shakespeare for raising up this character, Macbeth, to show us the consequences of sin.

The difference between levels, then, may have moral, as well as metaphysical, significance. It may explain why the biblical writers, who do not hesitate to say that God brings about sin and evil, do not accuse him of wrongdoing. The relationship between God and us, of course, is different in some respects from that between an author and his characters. Most significantly, we are real and Macbeth is not. But between God and us there is a vast difference in the kind of reality and in relative status. God is the absolute controller of and authority over nature and history. He is the lawgiver, and we receive his laws. He is the head of the covenant; we are the servants. He has devised the creation for his own glory; we seek his glory, rather than our own. He makes us as the potter makes pots, for his own purposes. He has many rights and prerogatives we do not. Do these differences not put God in a different moral category as well? (see addendum below for more on this point)

The transcendence of God plays a significant role in biblical responses to the problem of evil. Because God is who he is, the covenant Lord, he is not required to defend Himself against charges of injustice. He is the judge, and we are not. Very often in Scripture, when something happens that calls God’s goodness into question, He pointedly refrains from explaining. In fact, He often rebukes those people who question him. Simply put, God is not subject to the ignorant evaluations of his creatures, like you and I!

Now you have your answer.

Lastly, for the above example, I am indebted to Wayne Grudem, who suggested the Shakesphere analogy in his Systematic Theology.


AMR



addendum:

To say God is in a different moral category is not to adopt the view of Gordon H. Clark, who argued that God, being above the moral law, is not subject to it. Certainly God has some prerogatives that he forbids to us, such as the freedom to take human life. But, for the most part, the moral laws that God imposes upon us are grounded in his own character. For example, see Ex. 20:11; Lev. 11:44–45; Matt. 5:45; 1 Pet. 1:15–16. God will not violate his own character. Yet, what Scripture clearly teaches is that man has sufficient understanding of God’s character and his eternal plan (not to mention sufficient authority) to bring accusations against him. Hence, I am within the teaching of Scripture to assert that God has ordained evil, for He must have a morally sufficient purpose for so doing. You, on the other hand, have no warrant to assign the sin of His creatures directly to God Himself. You may poorly reason your way to that conclusion. You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Again, I had no intention of being rude. if I was please forgive me. i am just very passionate about this subject.

I am just wondering what verses you are talking about the suggest that "God brings about sin and evil "?

I dont know if you are familiar with Greg Boyds Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy, but if you are, it might help you to see where I am coming from. I do not believe that God is the "author" of sin and death. I do not believe the Bible teaches this either. I agree with C.S. Lewis when He writes, "I freely admit that real Christianity....goes much nearer to Dualism than people think... The difference is that Christianity thinks this Dark Power was created by God, AND WAS GOOD WHEN HE WAS CREATED, AND WENT WRONG.(enph. mine) Christianity agress with Dualism that this universe is at war. But it DOES NOT think this is a war between independent powers. It thinks it is a CIVIL WAR, A REBELLION, and we are living in a part of the universe OCCUPIED BY THE REBEL."
I f Lewis is right, that God is in a GENUINE war with Satan. And that we are living in a world that is ruled by this "rebel", it would explain why the world looks like a war zone( death, pain, suffering,....).
So it seems that it is this "Rebel" that is the author of sin and suffering, NOT God .
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Again, I had no intention of being rude. if I was please forgive me. i am just very passionate about this subject.

I am just wondering what verses you are talking about the suggest that "God brings about sin and evil "?

I dont know if you are familiar with Greg Boyds Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy, but if you are, it might help you to see where I am coming from. I do not believe that God is the "author" of sin and death. I do not believe the Bible teaches this either. I agree with C.S. Lewis when He writes, "I freely admit that real Christianity....goes much nearer to Dualism than people think... The difference is that Christianity thinks this Dark Power was created by God, AND WAS GOOD WHEN HE WAS CREATED, AND WENT WRONG.(enph. mine) Christianity agress with Dualism that this universe is at war. But it DOES NOT think this is a war between independent powers. It thinks it is a CIVIL WAR, A REBELLION, and we are living in a part of the universe OCCUPIED BY THE REBEL."
I f Lewis is right, that God is in a GENUINE war with Satan. And that we are living in a world that is ruled by this "rebel", it would explain why the world looks like a war zone( death, pain, suffering,....).
So it seems that it is this "Rebel" that is the author of sin and suffering, NOT God .
Yes, I am familiar with Boyd's work (read it!) and have written about it in these forums. You might want to read this cogent review of the book here.

Again, if you mean by "author" the originator, then I have no problem with Satan being seen as the author of sin. But you failed to address the many points I made in my post with respect to how we use the word "author" and how God's transcedence must be considered when discussing theodicy.


As for Scriptural references...

The biblical writers do not hesitate to ascribe the events of the natural world directly to God (Gen. 8:22; Job 38–40; Ps. 65:9–11; 135:6–7; 147:15–18; Jer. 5:22; 10:13; 31:35; Jonah 4:6–7; Nah. 1:3; Acts 14:17). His sovereign control extends to those events that appear to be most random (Prov. 16:33), to the smallest details (like feeding birds, clothing lilies, and the falling of sparrows; cf. Matt. 6:26–30; 10:29–30), to human history (Acts 17:26), governments (Ps. 33:10–11), leaders (Gen. 45:5–8; 50:20), individual human lives (Jer. 1:5; Ps. 139:13–16), and human decisions. These include even sinful decisions (Gen. 45:5–8; Isa. 44:28; Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23–24; 4:27–28; 13:27; Rev. 17:17). Given what the Bible teaches about God’s sovereignty, then, the various attempts to show that God is too weak to prevent evil do not seem promising.


We can think of other positive uses of evil. In Scripture, God uses evil to test his servants (Job; 1 Pet. 1:7; James 1:3); to discipline them (Heb. 12:7–11); to preserve their lives (Gen. 50:20); to teach them patience and perseverance (James 1:3–4); to redirect their attention to what is most important (Psalm 37); to enable them to comfort others (2 Cor. 1:3–7); to enable them to bear powerful witness to the truth (Acts 7); to give them greater joy when suffering is replaced by glory (1 Pet. 4:13); to judge the wicked, both in history (Deut. 28:15–68) and in the life to come (Matt. 25:41–46); to bring reward to persecuted believers (Matt. 5:10–12); and to display the work of God (John 9:3; cf. Ex. 9:16; Rom. 9:17).

We have seen in Scripture that natural evil is a curse that God placed on the world in response to man’s sin. We also see that God does harden hearts, and that, through his prophets, he predicts sinful human actions long in advance, indicating that he is in control of free human decisions.

The term authors is almost universally condemned in the theological literature. It is rarely defined, but it seems to mean both that God is the efficient cause of evil and that by causing evil he actually does something wrong. So the Westminster Confession of Faith says that God “neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin” (5.4). Despite this denial in a major Reformed confession, Arminians regularly charge that Reformed theology makes God the author of sin. They assume that if God brings about evil in any sense, he must therefore approve it and deserve the blame. In their view nothing less than libertarian freedom can absolve God from the charge of authoring sin.

But as I have argued elsewhere, libertarian freedom is incoherent and unbiblical, and in some sense God does bring about sinful human actions. To deny this, or to charge God with wickedness on account of it, is not open to a Bible-believing Christian. Somehow, we must confess both that God has a role in bringing evil about and that in doing so he is holy and blameless. I believe the greater-good defense, properly understood, supports this confession. Sometimes God does not respond by silencing us but by showing us in some measure how evil contributes to his plan—what I and many have called the greater-good defense. The greater-good defense refers particularly to God’s lordship attribute of control—that he is sovereign over evil and uses it for good. The Romans 9 response refers particularly to God’s lordship attribute of authority. And his attribute of covenant presence addresses the emotional problem of evil, comforting us with the promises of God and the love of Jesus, from which no evil can separate us (Rom. 8:35–39).

God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes
. So in bringing sin to pass, he does not himself commit sin. If that argument is sound, then a Reformed doctrine of the sovereignty of God does not imply that God is the author of sin.


Thus, it is not easy to find adequate terms to describe God’s ordination of evil. We should take care that our language must not compromise either God’s full sovereignty or his holiness and goodness.

AMR
 

penofareadywriter

New member
Yes, I am familiar with Boyd's work (read it!) and have written about it in these forums. You might want to read this cogent review of the book here.

Again, if you mean by "author" the originator, then I have no problem with Satan being seen as the author of sin. But you failed to address the many points I made in my post with respect to how we use the word "author" and how God's transcedence must be considered when discussing theodicy.


As for Scriptural references...

The biblical writers do not hesitate to ascribe the events of the natural world directly to God (Gen. 8:22; Job 38–40; Ps. 65:9–11; 135:6–7; 147:15–18; Jer. 5:22; 10:13; 31:35; Jonah 4:6–7; Nah. 1:3; Acts 14:17). His sovereign control extends to those events that appear to be most random (Prov. 16:33), to the smallest details (like feeding birds, clothing lilies, and the falling of sparrows; cf. Matt. 6:26–30; 10:29–30), to human history (Acts 17:26), governments (Ps. 33:10–11), leaders (Gen. 45:5–8; 50:20), individual human lives (Jer. 1:5; Ps. 139:13–16), and human decisions. These include even sinful decisions (Gen. 45:5–8; Isa. 44:28; Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23–24; 4:27–28; 13:27; Rev. 17:17). Given what the Bible teaches about God’s sovereignty, then, the various attempts to show that God is too weak to prevent evil do not seem promising.


We can think of other positive uses of evil. In Scripture, God uses evil to test his servants (Job; 1 Pet. 1:7; James 1:3); to discipline them (Heb. 12:7–11); to preserve their lives (Gen. 50:20); to teach them patience and perseverance (James 1:3–4); to redirect their attention to what is most important (Psalm 37); to enable them to comfort others (2 Cor. 1:3–7); to enable them to bear powerful witness to the truth (Acts 7); to give them greater joy when suffering is replaced by glory (1 Pet. 4:13); to judge the wicked, both in history (Deut. 28:15–68) and in the life to come (Matt. 25:41–46); to bring reward to persecuted believers (Matt. 5:10–12); and to display the work of God (John 9:3; cf. Ex. 9:16; Rom. 9:17).

We have seen in Scripture that natural evil is a curse that God placed on the world in response to man’s sin. We also see that God does harden hearts, and that, through his prophets, he predicts sinful human actions long in advance, indicating that he is in control of free human decisions.

The term authors is almost universally condemned in the theological literature. It is rarely defined, but it seems to mean both that God is the efficient cause of evil and that by causing evil he actually does something wrong. So the Westminster Confession of Faith says that God “neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin” (5.4). Despite this denial in a major Reformed confession, Arminians regularly charge that Reformed theology makes God the author of sin. They assume that if God brings about evil in any sense, he must therefore approve it and deserve the blame. In their view nothing less than libertarian freedom can absolve God from the charge of authoring sin.

But as I have argued elsewhere, libertarian freedom is incoherent and unbiblical, and in some sense God does bring about sinful human actions. To deny this, or to charge God with wickedness on account of it, is not open to a Bible-believing Christian. Somehow, we must confess both that God has a role in bringing evil about and that in doing so he is holy and blameless. I believe the greater-good defense, properly understood, supports this confession. Sometimes God does not respond by silencing us but by showing us in some measure how evil contributes to his plan—what I and many have called the greater-good defense. The greater-good defense refers particularly to God’s lordship attribute of control—that he is sovereign over evil and uses it for good. The Romans 9 response refers particularly to God’s lordship attribute of authority. And his attribute of covenant presence addresses the emotional problem of evil, comforting us with the promises of God and the love of Jesus, from which no evil can separate us (Rom. 8:35–39).

God does bring sins about, but always for his own good purposes
. So in bringing sin to pass, he does not himself commit sin. If that argument is sound, then a Reformed doctrine of the sovereignty of God does not imply that God is the author of sin.


Thus, it is not easy to find adequate terms to describe God’s ordination of evil. We should take care that our language must not compromise either God’s full sovereignty or his holiness and goodness.

AMR

I skimed through the link you sent me and I think I could safely say that alot of his objections are addressed in Boyds second book," Satan and the Problem of Evil".

Gen.50.20 could be interpretedas such. These were extraordinary time and it should not surprise us to find God involved in extraordinary ways. This text should not be taken as a proof text of how God usually, let alone always, operates.
Second, if we choose to take this text as proof of how God ALWAYS opaters, we must accept the consequence that this passage always minimizes the responsibility of human agents. If this text is taken as evidence of how God ALWAYS controls human action_ if God is involved in each kidnapping and murder the way He was invoved in the activity of Joseph"s brothers- we must be willing to console every murderer and kidnapper with Joseph's words: "Do not be distressed, or angry with yourself, for God kidnapped and murdered your victims." We cannot universalize the mode of God's operation in this passage WITHOUT also universalizing its implication for human responsibility. No one, of coures, is willing to do this.
Third, nothing in the text sugests that God orchestated the brothers actions BEFORE creation or even before the brothers developed their characters on their own.
 

godrulz

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Nor are you revealing aptitude to do so. Once inawhile I want to challenge this because you've said several pages back that Calvinists are lazy. You cannot 'always' rest on past laurels.

Not all are lazy, but many are ignorant of basic truths due to adopting a preconceived system and reading it back into Scripture.

The battle between Calvinism, Arminianism, Open Theism, Molinism, etc. is centuries old, without definitive resolution, despite all claiming biblical support and due diligence. It is as much a paradigm issue as a proof text one.
 

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The battle between Calvinism, Arminianism, Open Theism, Molinism, etc. is centuries old, without definitive resolution, despite all claiming biblical support and due diligence. It is as much a paradigm issue as a proof text one.
Openism is not a "centuries old" issue. It is just another post modern perspective. Please be more careful with the facts.

AMR
 

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I skimed through the link you sent me and I think I could safely say that alot of his objections are addressed in Boyds second book," Satan and the Problem of Evil".

Gen.50.20 could be interpretedas such. These were extraordinary time and it should not surprise us to find God involved in extraordinary ways. This text should not be taken as a proof text of how God usually, let alone always, operates.
Second, if we choose to take this text as proof of how God ALWAYS opaters, we must accept the consequence that this passage always minimizes the responsibility of human agents. If this text is taken as evidence of how God ALWAYS controls human action_ if God is involved in each kidnapping and murder the way He was invoved in the activity of Joseph"s brothers- we must be willing to console every murderer and kidnapper with Joseph's words: "Do not be distressed, or angry with yourself, for God kidnapped and murdered your victims." We cannot universalize the mode of God's operation in this passage WITHOUT also universalizing its implication for human responsibility. No one, of coures, is willing to do this.
Third, nothing in the text sugests that God orchestated the brothers actions BEFORE creation or even before the brothers developed their characters on their own.
Would be good that you not skim but take the time to digest the full review of Boyd's work. I have read the second installment as well, and disagree that he answers the criticisms laid against the first boo,k.

Not clear why you focus on the one verse nor why you wave it off as "extraordinary". No Scripture supports your view and you conveniently omitted any references.

Your summary of what you think my position was is badly done. Your interpretation of the Genesis description is erroneous as well. Note that from that verse Joseph's brothers were not let off the hook, their actions were clearly denounced as evil acts. So for you to then conclude that kidnappers and murderers are somehow relieved of their acts by this verse is an egregious error.


I expected more than what you have delivered. I keep looking for the substance that answers my responses in detail. What I receive are glosses and redirection, along with more mis-characterizations. It is disappointing that when I am encouraged (as your PM intimated) to respond, that the heavy lifting is one-sided, there is no point by point, verse by verse, answer, etc., and what is offered up as a response is but mere rhetoric.

AMR
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Again, I had no intention of being rude. if I was please forgive me. i am just very passionate about this subject.

I am just wondering what verses you are talking about the suggest that "God brings about sin and evil "?

I dont know if you are familiar with Greg Boyds Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy, but if you are, it might help you to see where I am coming from. I do not believe that God is the "author" of sin and death. I do not believe the Bible teaches this either. I agree with C.S. Lewis when He writes, "I freely admit that real Christianity....goes much nearer to Dualism than people think... The difference is that Christianity thinks this Dark Power was created by God, AND WAS GOOD WHEN HE WAS CREATED, AND WENT WRONG.(enph. mine) Christianity agress with Dualism that this universe is at war. But it DOES NOT think this is a war between independent powers. It thinks it is a CIVIL WAR, A REBELLION, and we are living in a part of the universe OCCUPIED BY THE REBEL."
I f Lewis is right, that God is in a GENUINE war with Satan. And that we are living in a world that is ruled by this "rebel", it would explain why the world looks like a war zone( death, pain, suffering,....).
So it seems that it is this "Rebel" that is the author of sin and suffering, NOT God .

Dualism is hard to argue against, partly because we think in a binary manner, even if we do not like to admit it. There is always a construct we choose over a competing one. Now God brought about the awareness of evil, it was Satan (shining star) second to God who after eons of time rebelled when God made man who, in heaven, would be above the angels. The Fallen angel did not mind being second, but God’s plan for man caused him to rebel, this is the first evil acted on, to be separate and independent from God.
 

penofareadywriter

New member
Would be good that you not skim but take the time to digest the full review of Boyd's work. I have read the second installment as well, and disagree that he answers the criticisms laid against the first boo,k.

Not clear why you focus on the one verse nor why you wave it off as "extraordinary". No Scripture supports your view and you conveniently omitted any references.

Your summary of what you think my position was is badly done. Your interpretation of the Genesis description is erroneous as well. Note that from that verse Joseph's brothers were not let off the hook, their actions were clearly denounced as evil acts. So for you to then conclude that kidnappers and murderers are somehow relieved of their acts by this verse is an egregious error.


I expected more than what you have delivered. I keep looking for the substance that answers my responses in detail. What I receive are glosses and redirection, along with more mis-characterizations. It is disappointing that when I am encouraged (as your PM intimated) to respond, that the heavy lifting is one-sided, there is no point by point, verse by verse, answer, etc., and what is offered up as a response is but mere rhetoric.

AMR

You are right. I would love to take the time to rebuttal you point for point. But I am at work for most of the day and i dont have enough time to go point to point. I would be alot more easy for my to talk about one point. I am not trying to dodge any of your pionts, I promise!:cheers:
 

penofareadywriter

New member
Would be good that you not skim but take the time to digest the full review of Boyd's work. I have read the second installment as well, and disagree that he answers the criticisms laid against the first boo,k.

Not clear why you focus on the one verse nor why you wave it off as "extraordinary". No Scripture supports your view and you conveniently omitted any references.

Your summary of what you think my position was is badly done. Your interpretation of the Genesis description is erroneous as well. Note that from that verse Joseph's brothers were not let off the hook, their actions were clearly denounced as evil acts. ]


But Joseph comforted his brothers saying "do not bedistressed, or angry with yourselfs.." right? I not being a smart alick but why shouldent we comfort all who do evil acts in the same way? Unless this was an extreme case.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I skimed through the link you sent me and I think I could safely say that alot of his objections are addressed in Boyds second book," Satan and the Problem of Evil".

Gen.50.20 could be interpretedas such. These were extraordinary time and it should not surprise us to find God involved in extraordinary ways. This text should not be taken as a proof text of how God usually, let alone always, operates.
Second, if we choose to take this text as proof of how God ALWAYS opaters, we must accept the consequence that this passage always minimizes the responsibility of human agents. If this text is taken as evidence of how God ALWAYS controls human action_ if God is involved in each kidnapping and murder the way He was invoved in the activity of Joseph"s brothers- we must be willing to console every murderer and kidnapper with Joseph's words: "Do not be distressed, or angry with yourself, for God kidnapped and murdered your victims." We cannot universalize the mode of God's operation in this passage WITHOUT also universalizing its implication for human responsibility. No one, of coures, is willing to do this.
Third, nothing in the text sugests that God orchestated the brothers actions BEFORE creation or even before the brothers developed their characters on their own.

It is either not 'extra-'ordinary or all our existence is. Romans 8:28?
 
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