ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[SaulToPaul 2]

lets say the parents of Hitler had EDF so that they were CERTAIN he would be guilty of murdering thousands apon thousands of Jews(not to mention everything else) and they had control of exacly WHEN he would be conceived and they STILL CHOSE TO HAVE SEX AT THAT TIME WITH THE INTENT OF HAVING HIM I would say yes, they are ultimitly responsable for Hitlers actions. (Sorry for the long sentanse!)

Your parents knew you would sin, but they still had you.
Are they responsible for your sins?

 

[philosophizer]

What answer are you looking for that you have yet to receive? The simple answer is that God had a morally sufficient purpose for creating, including ordaining evil.

Kudos! The only logical, non-OV answer to this is the 5-point Calvinist answer that God ordained evil upon creating the world. There's no reasonable middle ground. All compatabalists are illogical. Either God doesn't know the entire future or God ordains evil.

It either says Open Theist or Calvinist on the ticket-- there are no cheap seats.

Seeking any more beyond this is a fool's folly, as Job learned the hard way. Trust that the Creator of the world will do right and you will sleep better at night knowing that He is in charge and works all things according to His purposes, whether or not He has revealed all things or not. You are trying to apprehend the mind of God, or expecting Him to give an account of Himself to you, despite the contrary teachings of Scripture on the matter.

Absolutely, God is good! The Creator of the world will ALWAYS do right! He will always do good to enact His purpose.

...Which is why, when Calvinists claim that God ordains evil, I have to reply-- He did no such thing!

 

[philosophizer]

Do you have children? If so, did you know beforehand that they would do wrong, hurt people, get hurt, and eventually die?

But, you still chose to have them?

When we have kids we have hopes that they will do good things, listen, and make us proud. Yes, we know they won't be perfect, but we hope they will at least be good.

Are you saying that God hopes?

 

[philosophizer]

Why didn't God steer the two planes away from the World Trade Center? He could see them heading directly toward the towers. He could have prevented it.

Yes, but did God fly the planes into the World Trade Center?

 

[penofareadywriter]

What answer are you looking for that you have yet to receive? The simple answer is that God had a morally sufficient purpose for creating, including ordaining evil. Seeking any more beyond this is a fool's folly, as Job learned the hard way. Trust that the Creator of the world will do right and you will sleep better at night knowing that He is in charge and works all things according to His purposes, whether or not He has revealed all things or not. You are trying to apprehend the mind of God, or expecting Him to give an account of Himself to you, despite the contrary teachings of Scripture on the matter.

AMR

So let me git this straight. You believe the bible teaches that God is the author of rape, horrific murders, genocides, human trafficking and every other horrific evil? THIS was the theology Job got rebuked for my friend. Job believed God was the one responsible for evil. What was the truth behind the matter,Job 2:3
'Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though YOU incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."' There was are third reality that Job and his friends were blind to, namely the war that God was and is in with Satan and his angles. For the Lord asked Job Job 41:1
"Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?"
god did not say " I have "Alowed" this evil to come opon you to teach you a lesson". No. He explained how complex the created order is and how He is in a conflict that is bigger that Job.

Besides, what you said gos dirctly aginst the revealed nature of God.

1 John 1:5
God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Lam 3.33
"for he does not willingly afflict or grieve anyone"

 

[penofareadywriter]

Why didn't God steer the two planes away from the World Trade Center? He could see them heading directly toward the towers. He could have prevented it.

God has given humanity free will. if he constaintly stops our decisions, even our bad one, than He never REALLY gave us freedom to begin with. I agree with Greg Byod on this subject when he says that freedom is irrevocable.
But this irrevocable freedom is finite, meaning it is a means to an end. We will one day become free like God is free. We will be free to do all that is in agreement with our nature or character, which will be just like Gods.

 

[penofareadywriter]

Your parents knew you would sin, but they still had you.
Are they responsible for your sins?

I would have to disagree with that statement.

 

[penofareadywriter]

Kudos! The only logical, non-OV answer to this is the 5-point Calvinist answer that God ordained evil upon creating the world. There's no reasonable middle ground. All compatabalists are illogical. Either God doesn't know the entire future or God ordains evil.

It either says Open Theist or Calvinist on the ticket-- there are no cheap seats.





Absolutely, God is good! The Creator of the world will ALWAYS do right! He will always do good to enact His purpose.

...Which is why, when Calvinists claim that God ordains evil, I have to reply-- He did no such thing!

I could not agree more!:rapture:

 

[godrulz]

What answer are you looking for that you have yet to receive? The simple answer is that God had a morally sufficient purpose for creating, including ordaining evil. Seeking any more beyond this is a fool's folly, as Job learned the hard way. Trust that the Creator of the world will do right and you will sleep better at night knowing that He is in charge and works all things according to His purposes, whether or not He has revealed all things or not. You are trying to apprehend the mind of God, or expecting Him to give an account of Himself to you, despite the contrary teachings of Scripture on the matter.

AMR

God did not ordain evil as a necessity. Evil is a possibility if love and freedom are genuine. God opposes evil, did not desire, nor intend it. He now mitigates it, but He never ordains it since it is contrary to His will and character. He allows it, but will ultimately triumph over it.

Jesus opposes sin, sickness, evil, etc., not affirms it as God's will.

If it is God's ordained will, we have no business resisting it as Scripture commands us to do.

Your theodicy is for the birds because of a false assumption about God's sovereignty.

 

[godrulz]

Why didn't God steer the two planes away from the World Trade Center? He could see them heading directly toward the towers. He could have prevented it.

He has the power to do this, but freedom is irrevocable, though finite, if it is to be genuine. God will judge this evil, not affirm it as His will.

 

[andyc]

No.

Better:

"So, would it be correct according to you to say that, when it comes to the spiritual choices we make, God knows what we will choose, and he even influences us to make the choices we make according to our natures, even if he already knows we are ultimately going to make the wrong choice ("wrong" here being as we perceive it)?"

God has a morally sufficient reason for ordaining the choices we freely make, "freely" defined as choosing that which we are most inclined to choose according to our natures.

AMR

Lets use Saul as an example to see how it fits our theology.

1 Samuel 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.

God chose Saul to be King, and it was obviously God's will for Saul's kingdom to be established forever. God anointed Saul and he became another man, but his heart had become profane.
God knew that Saul was going to blow it, but he didn't ordain it.
And so, Saul's will overruled God's will, and his kingdom was not established forever.

 

[penofareadywriter]

God did not ordain evil as a necessity. Evil is a possibility if love and freedom are genuine. God opposes evil, did not desire, nor intend it. He now mitigates it, but He never ordains it since it is contrary to His will and character. He allows it, but will ultimately triumph over it.

Jesus opposes sin, sickness, evil, etc., not affirms it as God's will.

If it is God's ordained will, we have no business resisting it as Scripture commands us to do.

Your theodicy is for the birds because of a false assumption about God's sovereignty.

Come on GR. Dont distract him. I want him to anwser me. You will get your turn.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

God has given humanity free will. if he constaintly stops our decisions, even our bad one, than He never REALLY gave us freedom to begin with. I agree with Greg Byod on this subject when he says that freedom is irrevocable.
But this irrevocable freedom is finite, meaning it is a means to an end. We will one day become free like God is free. We will be free to do all that is in agreement with our nature or character, which will be just like Gods.

How is God not stopping the planes from hitting the Trade Center towers different than this?

I would be ultimitly acountible for his death because I KNEW HE WOULD DIE I COULD HAVE PREVENTED IT.

Is God responsible for those deaths since he could have prevented them?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I would have to disagree with that statement.

If your parents aren't responsible for your sins, how can you say this?

lets say the parents of Hitler had EDF so that they were CERTAIN he would be guilty of murdering thousands apon thousands of Jews(not to mention everything else) and they had control of exacly WHEN he would be conceived and they STILL CHOSE TO HAVE SEX AT THAT TIME WITH THE INTENT OF HAVING HIM I would say yes, they are ultimitly responsable for Hitlers actions.

 

[King cobra]

Yes, BUT, God knows those choices.

When we make a choice, synapses fire. God who made all of them knows the order of firing and not one exists that He doesn't know.

Okay, so you make a choice as simple as Spaghetti or Steak.
What fires the order in the synapse? 1) Your body's needs. We have cravings when our bodies need something. We may need the veggies and acids or we may need the protein. Nothing really magical there.
2) Preference 3) Proximatey to the last time we had each 4) circumstance upon the last time with either.
There are many more, but God knows each and every one of them so that we really cannot choose without Him knowing but His knowing certainly absolutely doesn't 'have' to determine the outcome though we all agree it is His world, we are His creation, He can do what He wishes, even to hedging and molding our choices, especially as believers.

It seems to me that you are attributing all of God’s foreknowledge to His exhaustive knowledge of past and present realities.

If this is your position, would it be fair to say that God’s foreknowledge is predictive but with absolute certainty? Is time linear or are you more comfortable with a God who can actually alter time and see the future or be in the future?

 

[Lon]

Hang on a sec, maybe I wasn't clear.

If God knows the future with 100% certainty, then He either created it directly (as in being outside of time) or He created it indirectly (as a sure result from His first cause). Those are the only two options because He is the Creator God.

If you don't like those two options then you can alter the conditions of the statement in two ways. First, maybe He's not the Creator. If that's so, then certainly, He could be outside of time and viewing as much of the future as He wants without having a hand in it. But if that's the case then someone else must be the Creator God.

Second, maybe he doesn't know the future with 100% certainty. If that's so, then certainly, He must not be the one determining the entire future.


In short, IF He is the Creator AND He knows our choices with 100% certainty THEN He created (caused) those choices by one means or another.

No, you made a logical leap. There is no constriction to being Creator, being involved, yet not constrained to just that involvement.

 

[Lon]

So, would it be correct according to you to say that, when it comes to the spiritual choices we make, God knows what we will choose, and he even influences us to make the right choice, even if he already knows we are ultimately going to make the wrong choice?

I agree, but would counter the last part with His Word and efforts not returning void. This does not mean all respond the same way to His consistent applications. For instance, If I were Pharoah, I'd have repented way before the 10th plague. The same act will cause hardening or repentance. "The stone the builders rejected became the cornerstone."

Jesus is consistent in character, the difference is the builders and rejectors.

 

[Lon]

My problem with EDF is this; If God had EDF before He (this is important) FREELY created the universe, dont you have the same theological problem that Calvinism does as far as God being responsible for evil?
Whether He "determined in His will" or simply "saw the end from the begining" HE STILL FREELY CHOSE TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE! He did NOT have to create anything but ( if you hold to EDF) saw the evil that WOULD BE and thought "Hey, the good justifys the bad". But just because you can justify doing something does NOT mean that YOU DID NOT DO IT! Do you follow?
I have still not heard a cohesive answer for this yet.... good luck!

As an automobile maker, Chrysler knows some will abuse the car, not bring it in for tune-up, etc. They know that some will kill another through negligence and DWI's. Are they implicated? Does Chrystler get sued on these occassions? Why or why not? They know before-hand.

 

[Lon]

It seems to me that you are attributing all of God’s foreknowledge to His exhaustive knowledge of past and present realities.

If this is your position, would it be fair to say that God’s foreknowledge is predictive but with absolute certainty? Is time linear or are you more comfortable with a God who can actually alter time and see the future or be in the future?

When John sees the Revelation of Christ, is it a true future or a fabricated one? When he speaks with the Elder, is it a real elder or a fabrication?
When He sees the Lamb of God, is it Jesus, or a fabrication?

If all of this is 'just a vision' (which doesn't erase the reality scope to me), is it going to happen exactly as is given? Jesus told John to write it all down exactly as he saw and heard. John was privvy to future happenings and experienced them. Vision or not, it was a real elder, real Lamb of God.

 

[penofareadywriter]

How is God not stopping the planes from hitting the Trade Center towers different than this?

I dont get your first? .

Is God responsible for those deaths since he could have prevented them?

#1 I dont get your first? .

#2 Did you even read my last post? What I am saying is that because God gave us ( and angles and demons) freewill, He to a certain extent tied His own hands as to His direct invovment in the world.
This is where prayer comes into play.
Let me ask you a ?. If God always gets His way, why did He tell us to pray for His kingdom to come and His wiil to be done?The prayer assumes that we are living in a Rebels kingdom where for the most part Gods will IS NOT DONE.