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  • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    No.

    Better
    :


    "So, would it be correct according to you to say that, when it comes to the spiritual choices we make, God knows what we will choose, and he even influences us to make the choices we make according to our natures, even if he already knows we are ultimately going to make the wrong choice ("wrong" here being as we perceive it)?
    "

    God has a morally sufficient reason for ordaining the choices we freely make, "freely" defined as choosing that which we are most inclined to choose according to our natures.


    AMR
    Lets use Saul as an example to see how it fits our theology.

    1 Samuel 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.

    God chose Saul to be King, and it was obviously God's will for Saul's kingdom to be established forever. God anointed Saul and he became another man, but his heart had become profane.
    God knew that Saul was going to blow it, but he didn't ordain it.
    And so, Saul's will overruled God's will, and his kingdom was not established forever.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

    Comment


    • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
      God did not ordain evil as a necessity. Evil is a possibility if love and freedom are genuine. God opposes evil, did not desire, nor intend it. He now mitigates it, but He never ordains it since it is contrary to His will and character. He allows it, but will ultimately triumph over it.

      Jesus opposes sin, sickness, evil, etc., not affirms it as God's will.

      If it is God's ordained will, we have no business resisting it as Scripture commands us to do.

      Your theodicy is for the birds because of a false assumption about God's sovereignty.
      Come on GR. Dont distract him. I want him to anwser me. You will get your turn.
      The shadow proves the sunshine

      Comment


      • Originally posted by penofareadywriter View Post
        God has given humanity free will. if he constaintly stops our decisions, even our bad one, than He never REALLY gave us freedom to begin with. I agree with Greg Byod on this subject when he says that freedom is irrevocable.
        But this irrevocable freedom is finite, meaning it is a means to an end. We will one day become free like God is free. We will be free to do all that is in agreement with our nature or character, which will be just like Gods.
        How is God not stopping the planes from hitting the Trade Center towers different than this?

        Originally posted by penofareadywriter View Post
        I would be ultimitly acountible for his death because I KNEW HE WOULD DIE I COULD HAVE PREVENTED IT.
        Is God responsible for those deaths since he could have prevented them?
        Originally posted by Interplanner
        They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
        Originally posted by Interplanner
        You're too literal to get it.
        Originally posted by Interplanner
        The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by penofareadywriter View Post
          I would have to disagree with that statement.
          If your parents aren't responsible for your sins, how can you say this?

          Originally posted by penofareadywriter View Post
          lets say the parents of Hitler had EDF so that they were CERTAIN he would be guilty of murdering thousands apon thousands of Jews(not to mention everything else) and they had control of exacly WHEN he would be conceived and they STILL CHOSE TO HAVE SEX AT THAT TIME WITH THE INTENT OF HAVING HIM I would say yes, they are ultimitly responsable for Hitlers actions.
          Originally posted by Interplanner
          They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
          Originally posted by Interplanner
          You're too literal to get it.
          Originally posted by Interplanner
          The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lon View Post
            Yes, BUT, God knows those choices.

            When we make a choice, synapses fire. God who made all of them knows the order of firing and not one exists that He doesn't know.

            Okay, so you make a choice as simple as Spaghetti or Steak.
            What fires the order in the synapse? 1) Your body's needs. We have cravings when our bodies need something. We may need the veggies and acids or we may need the protein. Nothing really magical there.
            2) Preference 3) Proximatey to the last time we had each 4) circumstance upon the last time with either.
            There are many more, but God knows each and every one of them so that we really cannot choose without Him knowing but His knowing certainly absolutely doesn't 'have' to determine the outcome though we all agree it is His world, we are His creation, He can do what He wishes, even to hedging and molding our choices, especially as believers.
            It seems to me that you are attributing all of God’s foreknowledge to His exhaustive knowledge of past and present realities.

            If this is your position, would it be fair to say that God’s foreknowledge is predictive but with absolute certainty? Is time linear or are you more comfortable with a God who can actually alter time and see the future or be in the future?
            Everyone deserves a first chance. - Kc

            The road to hell is paved with Republicans...and congested with Democrats. - Kc

            A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows...wait a minute...there’s Nietzsche!!!!!! – Kc

            Comment


            • Originally posted by philosophizer View Post
              Hang on a sec, maybe I wasn't clear.

              If God knows the future with 100% certainty, then He either created it directly (as in being outside of time) or He created it indirectly (as a sure result from His first cause). Those are the only two options because He is the Creator God.

              If you don't like those two options then you can alter the conditions of the statement in two ways. First, maybe He's not the Creator. If that's so, then certainly, He could be outside of time and viewing as much of the future as He wants without having a hand in it. But if that's the case then someone else must be the Creator God.

              Second, maybe he doesn't know the future with 100% certainty. If that's so, then certainly, He must not be the one determining the entire future.


              In short, IF He is the Creator AND He knows our choices with 100% certainty THEN He created (caused) those choices by one means or another.
              No, you made a logical leap. There is no constriction to being Creator, being involved, yet not constrained to just that involvement.
              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

              ? Yep

              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by andyc View Post
                So, would it be correct according to you to say that, when it comes to the spiritual choices we make, God knows what we will choose, and he even influences us to make the right choice, even if he already knows we are ultimately going to make the wrong choice?
                I agree, but would counter the last part with His Word and efforts not returning void. This does not mean all respond the same way to His consistent applications. For instance, If I were Pharoah, I'd have repented way before the 10th plague. The same act will cause hardening or repentance. "The stone the builders rejected became the cornerstone."

                Jesus is consistent in character, the difference is the builders and rejectors.
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by penofareadywriter View Post
                  My problem with EDF is this; If God had EDF before He (this is important) FREELY created the universe, dont you have the same theological problem that Calvinism does as far as God being responsible for evil?
                  Whether He "determined in His will" or simply "saw the end from the begining" HE STILL FREELY CHOSE TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE! He did NOT have to create anything but ( if you hold to EDF) saw the evil that WOULD BE and thought "Hey, the good justifys the bad". But just because you can justify doing something does NOT mean that YOU DID NOT DO IT! Do you follow?
                  I have still not heard a cohesive answer for this yet.... good luck!
                  As an automobile maker, Chrysler knows some will abuse the car, not bring it in for tune-up, etc. They know that some will kill another through negligence and DWI's. Are they implicated? Does Chrystler get sued on these occassions? Why or why not? They know before-hand.
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by King cobra View Post
                    It seems to me that you are attributing all of God’s foreknowledge to His exhaustive knowledge of past and present realities.

                    If this is your position, would it be fair to say that God’s foreknowledge is predictive but with absolute certainty? Is time linear or are you more comfortable with a God who can actually alter time and see the future or be in the future?
                    When John sees the Revelation of Christ, is it a true future or a fabricated one? When he speaks with the Elder, is it a real elder or a fabrication?
                    When He sees the Lamb of God, is it Jesus, or a fabrication?

                    If all of this is 'just a vision' (which doesn't erase the reality scope to me), is it going to happen exactly as is given? Jesus told John to write it all down exactly as he saw and heard. John was privvy to future happenings and experienced them. Vision or not, it was a real elder, real Lamb of God.
                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                      How is God not stopping the planes from hitting the Trade Center towers different than this?

                      I dont get your first? .

                      Is God responsible for those deaths since he could have prevented them?
                      #1 I dont get your first? .

                      #2 Did you even read my last post? What I am saying is that because God gave us ( and angles and demons) freewill, He to a certain extent tied His own hands as to His direct invovment in the world.
                      This is where prayer comes into play.
                      Let me ask you a ?. If God always gets His way, why did He tell us to pray for His kingdom to come and His wiil to be done?The prayer assumes that we are living in a Rebels kingdom where for the most part Gods will IS NOT DONE.
                      The shadow proves the sunshine

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                        If your parents aren't responsible for your sins, how can you say this?
                        Your statments are not making sence to me but I will take a stab, let me know if I am stabing in the right direction.

                        Where I make the distinction your analogy and mine is that of KNOWLEDGE. In my analogy, the parents had EDF(EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE). In yours they did not. I am submiting that KNOWLEDGE=ACCOUNTABILITY/RESPONSIBILITY.
                        Luke 12:47 NIV
                        "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.

                        Luke 12:48 NIV
                        But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.


                        We as human parents do know FOR CERTAIN what our children will do. We as Godly parents have chidren because we belive that there is a good probibility that if we raise the up in a Godly way that they will choose to follow the Lord when they get older.
                        There is the difference. Risk vs Certainty. Following yet?
                        The shadow proves the sunshine

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                          As an automobile maker, Chrysler knows some will abuse the car, not bring it in for tune-up, etc. They know that some will kill another through negligence and DWI's. Are they implicated? Does Chrystler get sued on these occassions? Why or why not? They know before-hand.
                          I absolutely disagree with your presupposition that the car maker KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE FUTURE WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY.
                          They could not be charged with any crime because it could not be proven that they had specific knowladge of the certaity of ANY SPECIFIC crime.
                          I do know that parents HAVE been charged with crimes for giving there son (who had a history of suicidal tendincys) a gun who later killed himself with it.
                          Why were they charged? Because of THEIR KNOWLADGE of their sons past behavior.
                          As I am arguing with Saul to Paul, KNOWLADGE=ACOUNTABILITY/RESBONSIBILITY.
                          Luke 12:47
                          "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.

                          Luke 12:48
                          But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.
                          The shadow proves the sunshine

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                            When John sees the Revelation of Christ, is it a true future or a fabricated one? When he speaks with the Elder, is it a real elder or a fabrication?
                            When He sees the Lamb of God, is it Jesus, or a fabrication?

                            If all of this is 'just a vision' (which doesn't erase the reality scope to me), is it going to happen exactly as is given?
                            I'm sorry. I'm not seeing any answers in these questions.
                            Jesus told John to write it all down exactly as he saw and heard. John was privvy to future happenings and experienced them. Vision or not, it was a real elder, real Lamb of God.
                            Ok, future happenings were revealed to John. Are you saying that he was physically transported to the future so as to actually experience them?
                            Everyone deserves a first chance. - Kc

                            The road to hell is paved with Republicans...and congested with Democrats. - Kc

                            A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows...wait a minute...there’s Nietzsche!!!!!! – Kc

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                              As an automobile maker, Chrysler knows some will abuse the car, not bring it in for tune-up, etc. They know that some will kill another through negligence and DWI's. Are they implicated? Does Chrystler get sued on these occassions? Why or why not? They know before-hand.
                              Like God, they knew of the possibility, not the certainty. We are not disputing probability/prediction. We are disputing EDF of future free will contingencies. Your analogy is limited and can be used by either side depending on the twist.

                              Revelation is general vision, not seeing a completed movie of the actual, non-existent future. This would mean that the objects of certain knowledge somehow exist before the agent brings them into existence (absurd; eternal now is philosophical, not biblical).
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by penofareadywriter View Post
                                So let me git this straight. You believe the bible teaches that God is the author of rape, horrific murders, genocides, human trafficking and every other horrific evil? THIS was the theology Job got rebuked for my friend. Job believed God was the one responsible for evil. What was the truth behind the matter,Job 2:3
                                'Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though YOU incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."' There was are third reality that Job and his friends were blind to, namely the war that God was and is in with Satan and his angles. For the Lord asked Job Job 41:1
                                "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?"
                                god did not say " I have "Alowed" this evil to come opon you to teach you a lesson". No. He explained how complex the created order is and how He is in a conflict that is bigger that Job.

                                Besides, what you said gos dirctly aginst the revealed nature of God.

                                1 John 1:5
                                God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
                                Lam 3.33
                                "for he does not willingly afflict or grieve anyone"
                                "Rude" does not even begin to describe it, POARW, but I will answer you anyway...this time.

                                If by "author" you mean to say "God is responsible", you would be incorrect, for responsibility assumes accountability. God is not accountable to anyone, hence is not responsible. If by "author" you mean just as Shakesphere is the author of the play, the writer of history in which characters within that drama play out according to what the "author" wrote, then yes, God is the "author".

                                In Macbeth, who killed King Duncan? Shakesphere or Macbeth?

                                One could argue they both did...at different levels of reality. But when we look at the way we use language, we find the language that we typically use in such contexts as this one, it seems clear to me that we would not normally say that Shakespeare killed Duncan. Yes, Shakespeare wrote the murder into his play. But the murder took place in the world of the play, not the real world of the author. Macbeth did it, not Shakespeare. We sense the rightness of Macbeth paying for his crime. But we would certainly consider it very unjust if Shakespeare were tried and put to death for killing Duncan. And no one suggests that there is any problem in reconciling Shakespeare’s benevolence with his omnipotence over the world of the drama. Indeed, there is reason for us to praise Shakespeare for raising up this character, Macbeth, to show us the consequences of sin.

                                The difference between levels, then, may have moral, as well as metaphysical, significance. It may explain why the biblical writers, who do not hesitate to say that God brings about sin and evil, do not accuse him of wrongdoing. The relationship between God and us, of course, is different in some respects from that between an author and his characters. Most significantly, we are real and Macbeth is not. But between God and us there is a vast difference in the kind of reality and in relative status. God is the absolute controller of and authority over nature and history. He is the lawgiver, and we receive his laws. He is the head of the covenant; we are the servants. He has devised the creation for his own glory; we seek his glory, rather than our own. He makes us as the potter makes pots, for his own purposes. He has many rights and prerogatives we do not. Do these differences not put God in a different moral category as well? (see addendum below for more on this point)

                                The transcendence of God plays a significant role in biblical responses to the problem of evil. Because God is who he is, the covenant Lord, he is not required to defend Himself against charges of injustice. He is the judge, and we are not. Very often in Scripture, when something happens that calls God’s goodness into question, He pointedly refrains from explaining. In fact, He often rebukes those people who question him. Simply put, God is not subject to the ignorant evaluations of his creatures, like you and I!

                                Now you have your answer.

                                Lastly, for the above example, I am indebted to Wayne Grudem, who suggested the Shakesphere analogy in his Systematic Theology.


                                AMR



                                addendum:

                                To say God is in a different moral category is not to adopt the view of Gordon H. Clark, who argued that God, being above the moral law, is not subject to it. Certainly God has some prerogatives that he forbids to us, such as the freedom to take human life. But, for the most part, the moral laws that God imposes upon us are grounded in his own character. For example, see Ex. 20:11; Lev. 11:44–45; Matt. 5:45; 1 Pet. 1:15–16. God will not violate his own character. Yet, what Scripture clearly teaches is that man has sufficient understanding of God’s character and his eternal plan (not to mention sufficient authority) to bring accusations against him. Hence, I am within the teaching of Scripture to assert that God has ordained evil, for He must have a morally sufficient purpose for so doing. You, on the other hand, have no warrant to assign the sin of His creatures directly to God Himself. You may poorly reason your way to that conclusion. You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
                                Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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