ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

Karaite

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The Septuagint doesn't read 'pierced' - it reads 'dug'. Same with the Hebrew manuscripts that your footnote is reffering to. A word that means 'pierce' is found in Zechariah 12:10. The confusion of dug/pierced came from some of the sloppier manuscripts, which bad handwriting could confuse a person to whether they are looking at a vav or a yod. The Masoretic Text, which comes from the Temple Manuscripts, preserves the correction reading of 'like a lion'.
 

Dimo

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quote:
Originally posted by LightSon
Study the scriptures. In them you will see that you were created for more than just this short and often unsatisfying physical life. God reveals His mind in the Bible. If you study His Word diligently, He will reveal His truth to you.

Dimo:

First I'd like to say; I'm sorry your life is short and unsatisfying. Perhaps you should get out more, take some chances, and find some new and/or more satisfying experiences.

What did you mean by posting?

"In them you will see that you were created for more than just this short and often unsatisfying physical life."

Exactly what is the "more"?

Are you referring to a "spiritual life" after this physical life?
 
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LightSon

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LightSon wrote:
Study the scriptures. In them you will see that you were created for more than just this short and often unsatisfying physical life. God reveals His mind in the Bible. If you study His Word diligently, He will reveal His truth to you.


Dimo wrote:

First I'd like to say; I'm sorry your life is short and unsatisfying. Perhaps you should get out more, take some chances, and find some new and/or more satisfying experiences.

LightSon responds:

Hopefully my life won't be shorter than most people's lives are short. My point was to underscore the fact that even those who have a relatively long life, say 80 or 90 years, still have what amounts to a vapour of a life, which appears for a short time and then vanishes away.

Notice I said "often unsatisfying physical life." My life has a large measure of satifisfaction, thanks for your concern. My overarching point is that life has a large capacity for emptiness and vanity in it. If you cannot relate to that, then you are free to ignore the sentiment.

LightSon wrote:
"In them you will see that you were created for more than just this short and often unsatisfying physical life."
Dimo wrote:
Exactly what is the "more"?

Are you referring to a "spiritual life" after this physical life?
LightSon responds:
Exactly. Jesus refers to this richer life in a number of different ways. My point is that if in this (physical) life only we can expect happiness and satisfaction in any substantial measure, then we will be sadly disappointed. We were created for more than the 70 or 80 years of "big fun" that is attainable in our mortality. And that is in a "good" example of human existence. You may be affluent and reasonably happy. What about the billions who live substandard physical existences? What do they have to look forward to in this life?

There is more available, for anyone who thirsts for it.
John 4:13, 14 "Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

Luke 12:15 Jesus said, "...Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."

John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent"

Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. "
 

Dimo

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Lightson posted:

Hopefully my life won't be shorter than most people's lives are short. My point was to underscore the fact that even those who have a relatively long life, say 80 or 90 years, still have what amounts to a vapour of a life, which appears for a short time and then vanishes away.

Dimo:

80 or 90 years is not enough for you? Perhaps you should consider giving the next generation(s) a chance at life also.

"You can't have everything, where would you put it?"

Steven Wright



Lightson posted:

Notice I said "often unsatisfying physical life." My life has a large measure of satifisfaction, thanks for your concern. My overarching point is that life has a large capacity for emptiness and vanity in it.

Dimo:

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that basing one's satisfaction in life on vanity and material gain is the cause for this overaching emptiness.



Lightson:

If you cannot relate to that, then you are free to ignore the
sentiment.

Dimo:

I can relate to this. I am human and fall prey to the same human weaknesses as most people.



Lightson posted:

Exactly. Jesus refers to this richer life in a number of different ways. My point is that if in this (physical) life only we can expect happiness and satisfaction in any substantial measure, then we will be sadly disappointed.

Dimo:

How do you measure happiness and satisfaction?

I think Jesus was speaking directly to the matrerialistic attitude that you use to measure happiness and satisfaction.



Lightson posted:

We were created for more than the 70 or 80 years of "big fun" that is attainable in our mortality.

Dimo:

Sounds like a line from Dim in a "A Clockwork Orange". Except I don't think he would have used attaniable or mortality. At least you have a good vocabulary.



Lightson posted:

And that is in a "good" example of human existence.

Dimo:

I believe that we should follow the example that Jesus gave us. That is the "best" example of human existence.



Lightson posted:

You may be affluent and reasonably happy.

Dimo:

I have learned that true happiness has very little if anything to do with affluence.



Lightson:

What about the billions who live substandard physical existences?

Dimo:

It's not good to compare oneself to others, in this regard. It is better to progress in our own lives. That is true happiness.



Lightson:

What do they have to look forward to in this life?

Dimo:

The same things that you or I have to look forward to, if they so choose.
 

LightSon

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LightSon wrote:
Study the scriptures. In them you will see that you were created for more than just this short and often unsatisfying physical life. God reveals His mind in the Bible. If you study His Word diligently, He will reveal His truth to you.

Dimo wrote: First I'd like to say; I'm sorry your life is short and unsatisfying.
...
Perhaps you should consider the possibility that basing one's satisfaction in life on vanity and material gain is the cause for this overaching emptiness.

LightSon responds:
I notice you continually attach this sentiment to me. Perhaps I am not communicating clearly. When I refer to "this short and often unsatisfying physical life," I am not whining about my life being either short or unsatisfying. I am suggesting that, by conventional perspective, many see their lives as such. Also, it is my point that one should not base their "satisfaction in life on vanity and material gain." It appears that you also believe this.
Dimo wrote:
I think Jesus was speaking directly to the matrerialistic attitude that you use to measure happiness and satisfaction.

LightSon concludes:
That is not my measure. (I thought it was yours).
I am trying to draw your attention to the richness of life in Christ both now and in eternity, and that any God-given joy and peace of mind is not dependent on material affluence. If you agree with that concept, then we can cease our contention.
 

Dimo

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Lightson posted:

LightSon concludes:
That is not my measure. (I thought it was yours).
I am trying to draw your attention to the richness of life in Christ both now and in eternity, and that any God-given joy and peace of mind is not dependent on material affluence. If you agree with that concept, then we can cease our contention.

Dimo:

Your original point, that being unsatisfied with life as a response to the lack of affluence and a short life can be cured, is correct. If one detaches their happiness from the accumulation of material objects, happiness can be found without attributing this mental exercise to a Christian doctrine and an eternal life. That is my point. Budhist monks do this same thing without a desire for eternal salvation. In that sense their reasons are more pure then those Christians who have chosen this philosophy for an alterior motive. That alterior motive being a seperate and eternal life. Budhist monks do what is right because it is right, and not because they want some reward for doing right. I distrust anyone who has fallen prey to the alterior motive bait. Those people can be convinced of anything, right or wrong, because of their quest for eternal life. Hence I do take issue with your proposed problem presented from living only 80 or 90 years and your contention that happiness can only be found from Christian doctrine.

I have chosen Christ because of his actions and ideas. Not because of birth right, religious prophecy, or the desire for eternal life.
 
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LightSon

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Originally posted by Dimo

Your original point, that being unsatisfied with life as a response to the lack of affluence and a short life can be cured, is correct. If one detaches their happiness from the accumulation of material objects, happiness can be found without attributing this mental exercise to a Christian doctrine and an eternal life. That is my point. Budhist monks do this same thing without a desire for eternal salvation. In that sense their reasons are more pure then those Christians who have chosen this philosophy for an alterior motive. That alterior motive being a seperate and eternal life. Budhist monks do what is right because it is right, and not because they want some reward for doing right. I distrust anyone who has fallen prey to the alterior motive bait. Those people can be convinced of anything, right or wrong, because of their quest for eternal life. Hence I do take issue with your proposed problem presented from living only 80 or 90 years and your contention that happiness can only be found from Christian doctrine.

I have chosen Christ because of his actions and ideas. Not because of birth right, religious prophecy, or the desire for eternal life.
I'm not sure where to begin.
Soteriologicaly, I am an exclusivist. Consequently, it is my postion that God calls all men to Christ and that to reject Christ is a wicked and self destructive act. A Budhist monk cannot be spiritually right if he is not in Christ. Anyone outside of a regenerated position in Christ is under God's wrath. This is what the Bible teaches.

Regarding motives, I confess to wanting to live forever. I don't see why that fact should cause you to distrust me. I also confess to wanting God's blessing in my life. But I also concede that God may allow both pleasant and unpleasant phenomena into my life, regardless of how I behave.

It seems like you are trying to run to the high ground of altruism. In your view, somehow Budhist monks get points for their selfless posture. I submit that unless they submit to God's righteousness in Christ, they will face a Christless eternity. In which case, what good is their altruism?

There exists self-interested motives in all humans. I doubt Budhists monks are any exception. Myself, I struggle to understand what motive there could be to behave in any particular "moral" way if God does not exist, or if there were no eternal life in the offing. Your words, while flowery, seem to lay a grand foundation for some atheistic morality. Jesus' ideas and actions are rooted in a Biblical world view. Jesus is not to be likened to some atheistic Budhist monk. On the contrary, Jesus' sacrifice was rooted in truth. You "have chosen Christ because of his actions and ideas," but He was the son of God who submitted His actions, will and ideas to His Father in heaven. It does no good to try to separate the truth of eternity from some spiritless altruism. It is not my desire to undermine altruism, but rather to show that any (self)"righteous" deed, which is not rooted in truth and a desire to glorify the living God, is not worth anything.

How do you reconcile the following scripture with your stated distrust of ulterior motives?

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:1,2

This passage clearly reveals a particular aspect of Jesus' motive. I hope you do not distrust Him.
 

jeremiah

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I read some of the anti -Christian web articles. Here is one from a messianic Jewish perspective. www.hadavar.org/antimissionary11.html
The belief in Yeshua as Messiah does not rest opon one scripture, let alone one word in one verse. Even so the believer in this article actually prefers the translation of "as a lion".
 

Dimo

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Lightson posted:

I'm not sure where to begin.
Soteriologicaly, I am an exclusivist. Consequently, it is my postion that God calls all men to Christ and that to reject Christ is a wicked and self destructive act.

Dimo:

I understand your position. Another persons call to Christ must fit it into your criteria for such. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for the rest of us it is God's opinion that really matters. What you consider "wicked" and "self-destructive" may or may not be the same as what God considers wicked and self destructive.

Lightson posted:

A Budhist monk cannot be spiritually right if he is not in Christ. Anyone outside of a regenerated position in Christ is under God's wrath. This is what the Bible teaches.

Dimo:

That depends on what is meant by "in Christ". I believe that whether or not someone is following Christ cannot be determined by religious doctrine or lip service. That is an issue between the individual and his/her creator. God knows what is in our hearts and disregards what we say with our lips when they are not the same."You will know them by their fruits". This is also in scripture.

Lightson posted:

Regarding motives, I confess to wanting to live forever. I don't see why that fact should cause you to distrust me.

Dimo:

I already explained why I distrust such motives. Your goal is a selfish and divisive reward. You need an intellectual reason to be good, because you cannot find this desire in your heart. You believe that those who do not agree with your accepted doctrine will go to hell. Whereas you shall, by virtue of your creed, enjoy an enternity in bliss. If you were to lose this reward, you would have no reason to be good.

Lightson posted:

I also confess to wanting God's blessing in my life. But I also concede that God may allow both pleasant and unpleasant phenomena into my life, regardless of how I behave.

Dimo:

I agree. However, if what God and Jesus meant by enternal salvation is not one's own individual and seperate existence I will be happy. I still have in my heart the desire to do good, regardless of the eternal outcome for myself. If all I can do is contribute to the salvation of humankind as a whole I will still be happy. I am grateful for this chance to live and contribute to the future of humankind.

Lightson posted:

It seems like you are trying to run to the high ground of altruism.

Dimo:

Sorry. I didn't mean to intimidate you by trying to be better.

Lightson posted:

In your view, somehow Budhist monks get points for their selfless posture.

Dimo:

No points involved. I believe life is a game of give and take. Some of us are takers others are givers. Most of us are both in varying degrees. Sometimes it is good to be selfish other times it is good to be selfless. Those who do only one without ever experiencing the other are cheating themselves and/or other humans. Philanthropy strikes me as the the best way to live. The attempt to give as much as one has recieved seems the most noble to me. Budhist monks give and take in different currency than most people.

Lightson posted:

I submit that unless they submit to God's righteousness in Christ, they will face a Christless eternity. In which case, what good is their altruism?

Dimo:

I believe they have humbled themselves to submission of God's righteousness. They just don't agree with the exact religious doctrine that you accept.

Their altruism is just that. Altruism, nothing more nothing less. Whether or not they will receive some tangible reward for their good deeds is irrelevant. I suspected that you would have a hard time understanding this.

Lightson posted:

There exists self-interested motives in all humans. I doubt Budhists monks are any exception.

Dimo:

I agree 100%. It is just that their self interests are broader than yours.

Lightson posted:

Myself, I struggle to understand what motive there could be to behave in any particular "moral" way if God does not exist, or if there were no eternal life in the offing.

Dimo:

I am not suprised. That is exactly why you have chosen your specific doctrine and disregard the rest.

Lightson posted:

Your words, while flowery, seem to lay a grand foundation for some atheistic morality.

Dimo:

I'm sorry that my words cover up the smell of your attitudes. My words do not lay the foundation for any type of morality. I am simply using my reason and logic to critically analyse these issues.

Atheism in itself is not immoral. I believe that atheists are not totally honest. Humans can no more prove that God doesn't exist than they can prove that he does exist. Some atheists follow the same school of thought that you have chosen. They must recieve some tangible reward for good things that they do. Those atheist wil no doubtedly act in ways that are immoral.

Lightson posted:

Jesus' ideas and actions are rooted in a Biblical world view.

Dimo:

I agree. Just not in your ideas and actions.

Lightson posted:

Jesus is not to be likened to some atheistic Budhist monk.

Dimo:

What? Budhism does not require one to be theistic or atheistic. The choice is left up to the individual, as the reality of this situation is played out. Jesus could have been a budhist monk and still had faith in God. In my opinion Jesus did learn about eastern religions. He was in my mind the pinnacle of all religions and sprituality.

Lightson posted:

On the contrary, Jesus' sacrifice was rooted in truth.

Dimo:

How is this contrary to anything I have said?

Lightson posted:

You "have chosen Christ because of his actions and ideas," but He was the son of God who submitted His actions, will and ideas to His Father in heaven.

Dimo:

I agree. And I follow Jesus by trying to do the same.

Lightson posted:

It does no good to try to separate the truth of eternity from some spiritless altruism.

Dimo:

This was not my intent. I believe in the truth of eternity. I also believe that true altruism takes honest spirituality.

Lightson posted:

It is not my desire to undermine altruism, but rather to show that any (self)"righteous" deed, which is not rooted in truth and a desire to glorify the living God, is not worth anything.

Dimo:

That all depends on what you mean by a "desire to glorify the living God". I believe that genuine altruism is rooted in truth, and the righteous deeds that follow from such beliefs do "glorify the living God".

Lightson posted:

How do you reconcile the following scripture with your stated distrust of ulterior motives?

Dimo:

I think I just have.

"In order to win, you must be prepared to lose sometimes
and leave one or two cards open."

George Ivan Morrison
 

servent101

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Dimo:

Sorry. I didn't mean to intimidate you by trying to be better.

But your answere were the best - at least in my view anyways - good post - glad I looked you up to see how you are doing.

Some of my greatness must of rubbed off on you somehow.

With Christ's Love

Servent101
 

Dimo

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Servent101 posted:

But your answere were the best - at least in my view anyways - good post - glad I looked you up to see how you are doing.

Dimo:

Well thank you. I think that is because you realize that I try very hard to speak honestly from the heart about my experiences. As opposed to following some predetermined party line.

Servent101 posted:

Some of my greatness must of rubbed off on you somehow.

Dimo:

Yes, mostly your humility.
 

aikido7

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Jack, you need to study the Word for meaning. Sharpen your understanding and seek precision of language. Walk as a child of light. Vanquish the darkness.

Stop arguing about meanings. You are using definitions to draw lines. You idolize your precision of language and demonize the vague and poetic.

You don't want understanding, do you? You want a target to shoot at.

The Bible admonishes us to think again, to listen for surprises, to see Creation behaving oddly--wolves lying down with lambs, trees clapping hands, rainbows in the skies.

Remember, Jack: Jesus taught in parables--the pinnacle of vagueness. He resisted calls like those from Simon the Pharisee to define and codify.

That only kills the Spirit, friend.
 

aikido7

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prophecy turned into history

prophecy turned into history

The belief that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy has been a cornerstone of the notion that Christianity completes Judaism. Christians have correlated statements about Jesus with carefully chosen Old Testament prophecies to document their belief that God's plan for human salvation reached its fulfillment in Jesus. That interpretive practice is evident in most of the New Testament, but it is Matthew's gospel that carries it out most thoroughly and most explicitly.

The way Matthew matches prophecies to the story of Jesus creates the strong impression that anyone who believes in the scriptures of Israel must see that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Matthew thus uses prophecy as a proof that Israel's history had been building up to Jesus.

Since Matthew's "proof from prophecy" theme buttresses Christianity's conviction that it is superior to Judaism (and since that conviction has played out with horrific consequences in history), doesn't it make sense that all of us have an ethical obligation to examine Matthew's claims and assess their value for Christian theology?

Matthew manipulated prophecy when he integrated the words of the prophets into his narrative.

From my perspective it is obvious that Matthew was reading Jesus into the prophecies he quoted. Respect for the Bible requires me to understand the prophets as speaking to their own times, with messages that they and their audiences understood in relation to their situations--centuries before the time of Jesus.

Respect for the Bible also requires me to understand Matthew on his own terms. Matthew, like all Jews of his time, treated the words of the prophets as coded messages having significance beyond the prophets' own understanding. This view of prophecy was absorbed into Judaism during the Hellenistic period, having originated among the ancient Greeks, who believed that their prophets spoke under the influence of a "spirit of prophecy" that overrode the speaker's own rational capacities. Because of this, sometimes neither the prophets nor their audiences could understand the true significance of their words, and thus the real meaning of some of those pagan prophecies could be discerned only after the predicted events had already occurred.

So it was a Greek idea, and first-century Jews applied these Greek beliefs about prophecy to the biblical prophets. So they believed that God had planted throughout their writings cryptic clues about his plans for the future. Many Christians evidently hold this same belief today.

Do you actually think that prophets such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, as well as New Testament authors such as Paul, Peter, and John, unwittingly wrote about events happening in OUR own time? Or about things that will happen in the near future?

I say no.

Today I can easily find books in the "End Times Prophecy" sections of Christian bookstores that claim to understand the prophets better than the prophets understood themselves! These books always say that we are living in the last generation, a time of unparalleled evil from which only a few will be saved.

So all of history has been building up to our own lifetime? What egocentricity!

The prophets did not fully understand their own messages, but we DO?

Only WE are among the "saved" and the rest of the world is "unsaved" and is awaiting its eternal damnation?

These are extremely self-centered beliefs. They make me wonder what human needs are answered by such self-centered beliefs? What kind of God is worshiped by a religion that caters to these needs?

It is a deeply rooted belief in Christianity that Jesus fulfilled prophecy and somehow the Old Testament contains a number of prophetic predictions about the coming messiah. The prophecies were just waiting to be fulfilled: Everyone would know the messiah when he finally shows up because all the prophecies were just waiting to be fulfilled.

Matthew's catalogue of the prophecies and how they were fulfilled gives believers the idea that it should have been clear to people who knew the Old Testament that Jesus was the long-awaited messiah. The Jews of Jesus' time--according to Matthew--"rejected him," or at the very least opposed him because of their hypocrisy and hardened hearts.

At the very end of the gospel, Matthew declares that the Jewish authorities knew that Jesus had risen from the dead but conspired to deceive their own people about the truth of his resurrection.

And don't forget that Matthew's attitude toward the Jewish leaders bears directly on his proof-from-prophecy theme. There is not a shred of historical evidence for the conspiracy Matthew describes. (Besides, if it had happened the way Matthew says it did, there is no way he could not have known about it: if the soldiers really "took the money and did as they had been instructed" no one could have known about the alleged bribery and the lying!) Matthew made this story up. It is fiction. The gospels contain many fictions that express truth—stories that are not historically true yet still communicate truths that are more important than historical facts--Jesus' parables and the stories that he multiplied bread and fish are good examples.

Unfortunately, Matthew's story about Jewish leaders who covered up Jesus' resurrection is not like those other truths. It is a total lie. Matthew told it to counteract the accusation that the disciples stole Jesus' body.

Any careful reading of Matthew shows that he had a real conflict with official Judaism at that time. When he says that his own people are right to follow Jesus as the Jewish messiah, he also makes it clear that Jews who do not follow Jesus are being unfaithful to Judaism. In other words, only Matthew's community has a "right" to exist as a Jewish community, even though "others" say it has no such right. So Matthew sees his group as the only "real" Jews.

You can tell that the bitterly harsh rhetoric in Matthew's gospel (the debate between his people and the keepers of official Judaism at that time--the Pharisees--was pretty acrimonious). And notice the way Matthew's Jesus badgers the Pharisees...Not a very open-hearted and compassionate Jesus, is it?

Matthew did not write his gospel to convince, but to point out the belief of Matthew's own people that all of Jewish history had been building up to Jesus, and thus culminated in them.

Personally, I find it hard to swallow that Matthew's presentation would change the mind of anyone who was not already inclined to believe that Jesus was the messiah. Some at that time neither knew what the prophets really said or even questioned whether Matthew's stories were literally true--they people might even be convinced that Jesus had fulfilled prophecies. Common sense tells me that it have been the effect of Matthew's gospel on a few--but I don't think Matthew's purpose was to trick the gullible.

We have to try to see things the way Matthew and his people did, regardless of whether we see things that way today. Matthew and his readers already believed that Jesus is the messiah. They also believed that God must have been "dropping hints" about the long-awaited messiah in the scriptures--especially in the books of the prophets. So Matthew goes back to the scriptures and studies them carefully, looking for clues about Jesus the messiah. For Matthew, the recognition of Jesus as the messiah is the newly revealed "key" that will "unlock" the hidden meaning of prophecy. When Matthew finds a prophetic statement that could be about Jesus, he tries to match it up with something he already knows—or believes—about Jesus' life.

So whatever a prophet says about the messiah, or the future Davidic king, or God's son, Matthew takes it to be information about Jesus.

The net result of all this is obvious: The early Christian belief that Jesus fulfilled prophecy arose after and because of the belief that he was the promised messiah. This important revelation needs to be emphasized. The belief that Jesus was the messiah was the basis for the belief that he was the fulfillment of prophecy.

So it was not that people noticed that Jesus had fulfilled a series of prophecies and so concluded that he must be the messiah. THE PROCESS WORKED THE OTHER WAY AROUND:

It was because Christians were convinced that Jesus was the messiah that they went searching through the scriptures to discover which prophecies he had fulfilled. The proclamation that Jesus fulfilled prophecy is a testimony to Christian faith, not a description of its origin. .

Matthew must have known that he was not going to change minds with his fulfillment of prophecy theme. He designed it to support the faith of his own Christian-Jewish community, not to convert outsiders. Matthew's message is that since the prophets confirm that Jesus is the messiah, his followers are the true heirs of Israel and children of Abraham, despite what the vast majority of other Jews may say.

His conclusions about Jesus would have offered encouragement to a tiny Jewish sect like Matthew's group--especially at a time when the belief that Jesus was the messiah could make you an outcast in Jewish society! Believing that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy helped to reassure his Jewish followers of the rightness of their cause at a time when the prestige of Jewish authority made this cause seem religiously illegitimate.

But that time no longer exists--it has not existed for 2,000 years. Today Christianity belief is not even remotely threatened by Judaism. There is not the slightest possibility that Christians will stop following Jesus because Jews do not regard him as the messiah.

When Matthew wrote his gospel it was necessary for followers of Jesus to believe that the scriptures pointed to Christ and that Jews did not understand their true meaning, and so the Hebrew Bible properly belonged only to Christians (who eventually made it into their own "Old Testament").

I think it is about time to stop we stop insisting on Matthew's mistaken premise. As Christians don't we now have the moral obligation to let go of the notion that if Jews truly understood the scriptures they would become Christians?

The belief that the prophets were pointing to Jesus--though perhaps helpful at the time Matthew wrote his gospel--has long since outlived its usefulness. It distorts the scriptures and has had ugly consequences in history. Out of respect for Judaism and for the Bible, we have an intellectual and moral duty to abandon this obsolete, self-serving, and dangerous belief.
 
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kkawohl

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Re: prophecy turned into history

Re: prophecy turned into history

Originally posted by aikido7

The belief that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy has been a cornerstone of the notion that Christianity completes Judaism. Christians have correlated statements about Jesus with carefully chosen Old Testament prophecies to document their belief that God's plan for human salvation reached its fulfillment in Jesus. That interpretive practice is evident in most of the New Testament, but it is Matthew's gospel that carries it out most thoroughly and most explicitly.

Jesus, Abraham, Moses, etc. are alive as spirit and they are now a part of God. They were messengers who interpreted their spirits interaction with the Spirit of God according to their own interpretation thereof. Messengers should not be deified; the message has merit but also is open to misinterpretation by the messenger, hence we have religious divergence.


Is the Bible The Word Of God ?


We can use the Bible as stepping stones that lead to God; we should not interpret everything therein literally. Now our perception of God should be interlaced with logic and common sense if we want to have our beliefs, just like the foundation, get stronger over time.

The Bible was written during a time when superstitions prevailed. There were claims of visions of God physically, and physical conversations with God and the devil.

A road map to God, the "Holy Books" that were considered to be correct and applicable during the time that they were written, would not be totally correct and applicable today by any stretch of the imagination. Oh yes, of course, it says in the "Holy Books" that everything therein is the gospel truth.

A rocket scientist who would attempt to apply his knowledge to a time two thousand years from now, would be considered feeble minded.

The Bible or Torah refers to God as representing a masculine anthropomorphic figure; as the king-like ruler who demands that everyone worship him and unquestionably do his bidding through eternity.

In this 21st Century many religious beliefs are as antiquated as in several millennia past. Most stories in the Bible were passed down verbally through generations, with new additions by each generation. In past centuries superstitions were the norm. Isn't it about time that a belief in God, if one so chooses, makes sense.

The Torah is the Hebrew name for the five books of Moses-the Law of Moses or the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. The Torah is believed by Orthodox Jews to have been handed down to Moses on Mt. Sinai and transmitted by him to the Jews. It laid down the fundamental laws of moral and physical conduct. The Torah begins with a description of the origin of the universe and ends on the word Israel, after the story of the death of Moses, just before the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites. In a wider sense the Torah includes all teachings of the books of the Torah were written over a period of about 1500 years by about 40 different authors on three continents in three languages.

The first 5 books, written by Moses about 1410 B.C. were accepted as authoritative by the people that initially received them. Transmission refers to the process of getting something written up to 3500 years ago to us. During transmission the documents are copied and errors are introduced. Some, who reject the truth of the bible argue that there errors are so many and so large that the bible is unreliable. Others, who accept the truth of the bible argue that the errors and alterations by copyists only slightly if at all diminish the reliability of the bible.

Jack Cargill is a Professor of Ancient History at Rutgers University, specializing in "Ancient Greece, the Near East, and Rome, and the interactions between them, with special interests in classical Greek epigraphy and historical issues related to the Bible and archaeology".
Quote:

...The Hebrew Bible is simply not a reliable source for the history of ancient Israel... If we are content to provide students with mythical, legendary, uncritical histories of ancient Israel, how can we have any legitimate grounds for complaint or criticism when others are willing to provide mythologized, fictionalized histories of other peoples and places?



Jack Cargill, "Ancient Israel in Western Civ Textbooks," The History Teacher (May 2001) (most Jewish historians agree with his conclusions)

Quote:

As Rabbis Face Facts, Bible Tales Are Wilting

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation...

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document...

The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all."

The rabbi offered what he called a "litany of disillusion" about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."


MICHAEL MASSING - The New York Times, March 9, 2002
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Turbo you are seeing the light. Have you tried to understand Daniel? He tells us WHEN Christ was to come. That will really inhance your faith.
 

bibleverse2

New member
"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"

-- Daniel 9:25
 

myndreach

New member
Was Jesus a worm?

But I am a worm, and no man

If not, it seems a nice little rationalization to say that this is not literal, while the part of piercing his hands and feet is literal to you because it fits Jesus's story.

Anyways, show me some evidence that Jesus ever lived, besides the writings of Christians and the one source widely regarded as a forgery. Why, of the 40 or so non-christian historians operating during the first two centuries, did none mention Jesus Christ? Don't say they are biased, surely at least ONE of them would not be an anti-christian, and just purely concerned with recording history. I mean, historians of their day mentioned Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, etc.

In fact, the only mentions of Jesus in documents outside of Christian sources are ones that say Jesus didn't exist.

For example, the Jew Trypho said
...ye (christians) follow an empty rumour and make a Christ for yourselves...If he was born and lived somewhere he is entirely unknown."

The only two sources that are consistently are cited by Christians are Josephus, a Pharisee, and Tacitus, a pagan. Since Josephus was born in the year 37 CE, and Tacitus was born in 55, neither could have been an eye-witness of Jesus, who supposedly was crucified in 30 CE. Well, perhapse they had reliable soures?

Here's a quote from an article written about early Christian history...

In the case of Josephus, whose Antiquities of the Jews was written in 93 CE, about the same time as the gospels, we find him saying some things quite impossible for a good Pharisee to have said:

About this time, there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

Now no loyal Pharisee would say Jesus had been the Messiah. That Josephus could report that Jesus had been restored to life "on the third day" and not be convinced by this astonishing bit of information is beyond belief. Worse yet is the fact that the story of Jesus is intrusive in Josephus' narrative and can be seen to be an interpolation even in an English translation of the Greek text. Right after the wondrous passage quoted above, Josephus goes on to say, "About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder..." Josephus had previously been talking about awful things Pilate had done to the Jews in general, and one can easily understand why an interpolator would have chosen this particular spot. But his ineptitude in not changing the wording of the bordering text left a "literary seam" (what rhetoricians might term aporia) that sticks out like a pimpled nose.

The fact that Josephus was not convinced by this or any other Christian claim is clear from the statement of the church father Origen (ca. 185-ca. 154 CE) - who dealt extensively with Josephus - that Josephus did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, i.e., as "the Christ." Moreover, the disputed passage was never cited by early Christian apologists such as Clement of Alexandria (ca.150-ca. 215 CE), who certainly would have made use of such ammunition had he had it!

The first person to make mention of this obviously forged interpolation into the text of Josephus' history was the church father Eusebius, in 324 CE. It is quite likely that Eusebius himself did some of the forging. As late as 891, Photius in his Bibliotheca, which devoted three "Codices" to the works of Josephus, shows no awareness of the passage whatsoever even though he reviews the sections of the Antiquities in which one would expect the disputed passage to be found. Clearly, the testimonial was absent from his copy of Antiquities of the Jews. 13 The question can probably be laid to rest by noting that as late as the sixteenth century, according to Rylands, 14 a scholar named Vossius had a manuscript of Josephus from which the passage was wanting....

Wouldn't the Greeks and Romans have noticed - and recorded - such darkness occurring at a time of the month when a solar eclipse was impossible? Wouldn't someone have remembered - and recorded - the name of at least one of those "saints" who climbed out of the grave and went wandering downtown in the mall? If Jesus did anything of significance at all, wouldn't someone have noticed? If he didn't do anything significant, how could he have stimulated the formation of a new religion?
Considering now the supposed evidence of Tacitus, we find that this Roman historian is alleged in 120 CE to have written a passage in his Annals (Bk 15, Ch 44, containing the wild tale of Nero's persecution of Christians) saying "Therefore, to scotch the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus..." G.A. Wells [p. 16] says of this passage:

Tacitus wrote at a time when Christians themselves had come to believe that Jesus had suffered under Pilate. There are three reasons for holding that Tacitus is here simply repeating what Christians had told him. First, he gives Pilate a title, procurator [without saying procurator of what! FRZ], which was current only from the second half of the first century. Had he consulted archives which recorded earlier events, he would surely have found Pilate there designated by his correct title, prefect. Second, Tacitus does not name the executed man Jesus, but uses the title Christ (Messiah) as if it were a proper name. But he could hardly have found in archives a statement such as "the Messiah was executed this morning." Third, hostile to Christianity as he was, he was surely glad to accept from Christians their own view that Christianity was of recent origin, since the Roman authorities were prepared to tolerate only ancient cults. (The Historical Evidence for Jesus; p.16).

There are further problems with the Tacitus story. Tacitus himself never again alludes to the Neronian persecution of Christians in any of his voluminous writings, and no other Pagan authors know anything of the outrage either. Most significant, however, is that ancient Christian apologists made no use of the story in their propaganda - an unthinkable omission by motivated partisans who were well-read in the works of Tacitus. Clement of Alexandria, who made a profession of collecting just such types of quotations, is ignorant of any Neronian persecution, and even Tertullian, who quotes a great deal from Tacitus, knows nothing of the story. According to Robert Taylor, the author of another freethought classic, the Diegesis (1834), the passage was not known before the fifteenth century, when Tacitus was first published at Venice by Johannes de Spire. Taylor believed de Spire himself to have been the forger. i

Why do none of the reputable early C.E. historians mention Jesus? Could it be that he never lived?
 

Daniel50

New member
Reason to Believe; Psm 22

Reason to Believe; Psm 22

Very Very good,
I read several time in my mother tongue this psm 22
Tamil Bible..
Even I shared many things from this Psm.

Bible is Ocean.
Give Thanks To The Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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