Why would God need a hell?

[freelight]

Exploring dimensions.....

Exploring dimensions.....

Eternal suffering was (and is) just another Catholic invention to hold over their members if they do not abide by the Catholic faith or turn away from it and the idea that the Church had such power came very early in history. For instance, it was declared by the Church when establishing and inforcing their Sunday law that any Christian found to be Judaizing (keeping the seventh day Sabbath) shall be anathematized (cursed, condemned).

Of course,...but interesting how a church who adopts the Jewish scriptures and slaps on their own added 'New Testament' would condemn others for following the rules of the 'old covenant', and then change the holy Sabbath (which is 'saturday') into a more pagan-friendly 'sun-day'. The 'church' had problems of amalgamation or adaptation (synthesis) from the get-go highlighted in the Jerusalem Council, then further complicated by Paul's gospel infusing his own 'blend' of concepts from various schools and his own personal revelations. Paul didn't seem to harp on eternal hellfire, but did speak of 'eternal destruction' in a letter ascribed to him if memory serves.

God in His Word makes it very clear what will be the end for those who refuse Him - "And whoever was not found in the Book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev.20:15

"But the fearful, and unbeliever, and the abominable, and the murders, and whore mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Rev.21:8

The second death, not eternal suffering, but death, eternal death, to become non-existent.

Yes, as I've expounded here(earlier commentary) and elsewhere, its a wonderful topic. 'Conditional immortality' seems to have support from many passages. I remain open on the subject researching it from a metaphysical and philosophical angle, so leave the door open to a kind of Universalism possible, but so much depends on whether in fact a soul can truly 'die' (disintegrate, be terminated, become extinct, be wiped out). - on this point we also have to consider aspects of the soul that are 'perishable'(mortal) and 'imperishable'(immortal)...if these exist, and how they may be 'disintegrated' or 'integrated' in the transformation process of a soul's destiny or demise.

Our God is a merciful God and would not condemn a man to eternal suffering.

Of course Love would never devise or enforce such a thing.

His way will be as we do for a suffering animal "put them out of their misery" once and for all.

In a sense I can the logic of this, but for some, its hard to imagine a state of 'death' which is a total termination of conscious existence.

It's just another one of the Catholic Churches lies in order to exercise their power over their subjects.

Lets not just poke at the RCC here,...there are plenty of protestant evangelicals stoking the fires of eternal hellfire for the wicked. - they carry on the antics of the Mother Church so to speak.

Back in the 50's I had a high school classmate (Catholic) who's father died, he had owned and operated three taverns and was well set financially. Not long after his death their local "Father" came to their home and explained to her mother that since her fathers business was not the most Christian way of making a living that he would have to spend quite a while in purgatory, BUT, she could donate (give) a sizable sum of money to the Church and he could be sent on to heaven much sooner by doing so. (In other words, buy him out of purgatory)

What an evil despicable religion!

I imagine indulgences are no longer practiced by the church, but the concept of 'purgatory' does have some merit, since it is thru suffering the consequence of our sins (by karmic law), that we can learn, become purified and repentant, and return to God. Therefore, a 'purging' process may carry on in any realm or dimension where cleansing/purification/perfecting is needed (earth or any other spirit-sphere or dimension beyond).

 

[Mickiel]

It's just another one of the Catholic Churches lies in order to exercise their power over their subjects.
!

The Catholic church is a Christian church; and the Christian church you are trying to protect lies just as much.

 

[Mickiel]

This world needs hell like it needs a hole in the head.

 

[serpentdove]

This world needs hell like it needs a hole in the head.

:yawn: Ad infinitum Eph 4:14

 

[Mickiel]

Eternal hell punishing is the Christian Ad Infinitum, they don't want their mad theology to ever end. They want to stick the knife in every second of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every moment without end. They want to twist that knife into the unbeliever and turn it over and over and over again until it hurts all the time. They want to throw Rev. 21:4 out of the bible.

They want to bring the pain and bring it forever.

Hey, you can't put the truth of salvation into the hands of a people who think like this. This is worse than the Romans who used to punish Christians for entertainment; its the Christian way of getting back at the world for mistreating them in the past.

 

[Old man]

Of course,...but interesting how a church who adopts the Jewish scriptures and slaps on their own added 'New Testament' would condemn others for following the rules of the 'old covenant', and then change the holy Sabbath (which is 'saturday') into a more pagan-friendly 'sun-day'. The 'church' had problems of amalgamation or adaptation (synthesis) from the get-go highlighted in the Jerusalem Council, then further complicated by Paul's gospel infusing his own 'blend' of concepts from various schools and his own personal revelations. Paul didn't seem to harp on eternal hellfire, but did speak of 'eternal destruction' in a letter ascribed to him if memory serves.



Yes, as I've expounded here(earlier commentary) and elsewhere, its a wonderful topic. 'Conditional immortality' seems to have support from many passages. I remain open on the subject researching it from a metaphysical and philosophical angle, so leave the door open to a kind of Universalism possible, but so much depends on whether in fact a soul can truly 'die' (disintegrate, be terminated, become extinct, be wiped out). - on this point we also have to consider aspects of the soul that are 'perishable'(mortal) and 'imperishable'(immortal)...if these exist, and how they may be 'disintegrated' or 'integrated' in the transformation process of a soul's destiny or demise.



Of course Love would never devise or enforce such a thing.



In a sense I can the logic of this, but for some, its hard to imagine a state of 'death' which is a total termination of conscious existence.



Lets not just poke at the RCC here,...there are plenty of protestant evangelicals stoking the fires of eternal hellfire for the wicked. - they carry on the antics of the Mother Church so to speak.



I imagine indulgences are no longer practiced by the church, but the concept of 'purgatory' does have some merit, since it is thru suffering the consequence of our sins (by karmic law), that we can learn, become purified and repentant, and return to God. Therefore, a 'purging' process may carry on in any realm or dimension where cleansing/purification/perfecting is needed (earth or any other spirit-sphere or dimension beyond).

The false Immortality of the Soul doctrine was born in the garden when God said "in day that thou eat of it you shall surely die" and Satan said "you shall not surly die."

Adam and Eve did not physically die in the day they ate of the tree but they brought the curse death upon themselves and all mankind born thereafter. If they had taken of the Tree of Life they would have became immortal as is God and lived forever so the Lord sent them from the garden - "lest he (man) put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever."

Man was created a soul not with a soul, "and man became a living soul." and "the soul that sins, it shall die." "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the (resurrection unto life) judgment ."

As for your researching into 'conditional immortality' via Metaphysical, Philosophical and Universalism thinking, to me that is the cause of the many different interpretations and misuse of Scriptures. It was both Socrates and Plato who first brought forth their contemplations of the immortality of the soul which later was adopted into Christianity, it is not of Scripture.

1 Cor.15:53 - "this mortal must put on immortality"

1 Tim.6:15-16 - King of kings and Lord of lords who only has immortality."

As for mortal man (soul) - Ps.146:4 - "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish."

Job 14:12-15 - "For man lies down, and rises not: Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of the their sleep. if a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shall call and I will answer Thee, You will have a desire to the work of Your hands."

Dead souls will only live again through the resurrection unto life as immortal/eternal spiritual beings, Jesus "being the first born of many to follow."

I myself have died twice, once at the age of 8 when I drowned and was dead for about 7 minutes before I was found at the bottom of the lake and brought back and once by heart attack (without breath or plus) for 6-7 minutes before the EM arrived and brought me back.

So from personal experience, - There was no light, no thought,s no OBE, no nothing but darkness and unawareness of surroundings and time passing.

 

[serpentdove]

"Eternal hell punishing is the Christian Ad Infinitum, they don't want their mad theology to ever end."

Argument by repetition (Eph 4:14). lain:

"...They want to stick the knife in every second of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every moment without end. They want to twist that knife into the unbeliever and turn it over and over and over again until it hurts all the time."

:yawn: Or you could repent (Ac 9:35).

"They want to throw Rev. 21:4 out of the bible."

:dizzy: They do not look forward to Re 21:4 :listen: That's why there are tears in their eyes.

"...The Christian way of getting back at the world for mistreating them in the past."

:yawn: You could stop mistreating them (Prov. 21:7). :juggle: Return to your Egypt (Gen. 37:25–30, Mt 12:24).

 

[Mickiel]

Simply stunning, over 900 scriptures and absolutely none of them have gotten through the Christian cranium.

 

[Mickiel]

The problem is that you don't burn for all eternity. You simple are destroyed as Christ said He would DESTROY soul and body in hellfire... Not let us suffer forever. But everyone gets one opportunity to kno w His truth and then serve Him. Most are saved after the millennium at the white throne judgment. TomorrowsWorld dot org read the booklet on "is this the only day of salvation. " it totally explains everything in detail. Nobody is lost yet... ALL who have died Will get a chance when Christ brings them back to life

I don't believe that humans need to be destroyed; they need to be changed, and God is able to do that. I don't subscribe to the need to destroy humans, I believe death needs to be destroyed, and will be. The second death, is the death of the first death.

 

[Mickiel]

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/restoring-original-christianity

I hold little interest in booklets, but I do believe in scripture. In 1 John 4:14 God sent Jesus here to save the world, which includes all humans that your booklet will exclude.

 

[Mickiel]

He did... But you don't understand how He is doing that because you don't understand the white throne judgment.

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/is-this-the-only-day-of-salvation

You must have Christ's name to be saved and millions have died without even hearing of it...

For you to state what I do not understand, and you don't even know me, is common Christian judgment. You are here to shop a religion; to market your group; I hold no interest in your group. In John 17:2, " All flesh" is given to Christ to save and give eternal life to. Your group has absolutely nothing to do with that salvation, you have just been conditioned to think it does.

 

[Old man]

He did... But you don't understand how He is doing that because you don't understand the white throne judgment.

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/is-this-the-only-day-of-salvation

You must have Christ's name to be saved and millions have died without even hearing of it...

Correct, the first resurrection of 144K will be people who were granted the holy Spirit (as the Prophets of old) have died in the faith (along with those who are yet alive at Christ's return) of which the second death will have no power, they are born of the Spirit of eternal life.

The second resurrection is all who have never been called or even heard of the name of Jesus, it will be a physical resurrection in which they will then be called and given the opportunity to become a believer. They unlike those of the first resurrection will not have Satan to deal with just their human nature.

They will live and die and be in the Great White Throne Judgment and unlike those of the first resurrection will be subject to the second death (eternal death)

As God says, He would that all be saved therefore all will be given the chance to be so.

 

[way 2 go]

Love wouldn't send anybody to eternal hellfire.

why not, I mean besides feelings ?

Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

 

[way 2 go]

The second death, not eternal suffering, but death, eternal death, to become non-existent.

prove the second death is annihilation .


The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell, when he could just give everyone another chance?

 

[serpentdove]

"I don't believe that humans need to be destroyed; they need to be changed..."

Then change (Lk 10:27, Mt 5:48). :thumb:

"....[A]nd God is able to do that."

Will your wicked heart let him? :juggle: Jer 17:9 Do you love your sin too much? :Shimei: Jn 3:19

"The second death, is the death of the first death."

Your punishment is everlasting. :burnlib:

See:

Hell

 

[serpentdove]

Why would God need a hell, when he could just give everyone another chance?

Choose life (Deut 30:19, Josh 24:15, Is 55:6, Eze 18:31). :juggle:

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell, when we could just move the unbelievers out of range of the Christians target practice.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell, when a hell does not need him?

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell, when he wants children?