Why would God need a hell?

[Mickiel]

So a man that rejects Christ for 80 years or so, will get eternal conscience torment and punishment ?

No, God forbid these vicious attacks from believers in him and their lust to see condemnation. AGAIN Jesus in John 12:47, " If ANY man hear my words and does not believe, I judge him NOT, for I came NOT to judge the world, but to SAVE the WORLD!" Unbelievers are here pronounced saved by Christ, they are safe from any religious condemnation or hapless interpretation of the bible. In John 3:17, " For God did NOT send his Son into the world to CONDEMN the WORLD, but that the WORLD through him might be saved!"

You can't squeeze eternal torment into this world salvation, believers are cherry picking condemnation verses in the bible, which are mostly interpreted incorrectly. Like an animal seeing fresh meat on the ground and habitually going after it, some believers in God see the condemnation of unbelievers and are going after it like a desperate judge.

 

[csuguy]

Okay you say this does NOT say that men were appointed once to die and never more. This is what the bible says in Heb.9:27, " And it IS appointed unto men ONCE to die, and AFTER that the judgment." It does say that men will only die once; I mean that is clearly what it states! You are thinking its appointed Twice for men to die, which in my view is " Adding to scripture;" your changing one into two. Its your math, not biblical math.

Look at Job 19:26, " And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN my flesh shall I see God." We will be raised in the completely healed flesh , bodies in tact, and THEN changed! God is not going to kill humans again, he's going to destroy their fleshly bodies, and give them a Spirit form.

Why resurrect dead bodies that God has condemned, only to face a judgment in a court, then kill them again? Just leave them dead! What's the use of going through some temporary judging from God that has condemned you while you were already dead? Why send me to court, when I am already sentenced to death? That's what humans would do, God is not human. God IS reason!!

You are being disingenuous Mikiel. In the first place, we know there are exceptions to this general rule: people have been resurrected and died a second time even before the judgement. In the second place, you are ignoring the various scriptures that speak about the judgement and the consequences that occur to those who are judged negatively and do not recieve enternal life. You cling to that one word, but in of itself it does not establish what you want - especially when you look at ALL of scripture. Again, here's the passage from revelations that discusses the judgement:

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. ​

 

[Lon]

"If" we try to make God cater to 'our' sense of justice, it would be fraught with sin and injustice. We cannot judge God, only read what He says is so, and accept it as it is given. There are many scriptures that warn us of consequences for our actions. If we suffer eternally, such will 1) be because of our own choices 2) will leave God just, and we unjustified/unjustifiable 3) will happen regardless of our finite, feeble attempts to make it otherwise.

Those who start and support annihilation or universalism 1) do not believe in their own wickedness/fallen nature. They are 'too good' to need a Savior or deserve hell lain: 2) They reject God's Word and prefer their own counsel and thus make a god in their own image that the scriptures say is "no god at all." Who cares who your made-up-god is??? Wouldn't I just be worshipping you? They are 'nicer' than God and serve one who is not the God of Scripture 3) Being too good to need a Savior, they reject Him and their need for Him. Romans 1:32 Romans 1:16-32

 

[ok doser]

So a man that rejects Christ for 80 years or so, will get eternal conscience torment and punishment ?

of course


unless he converts on his 81st birthday

 

[csuguy]

"If" we try to make God cater to 'our' sense of justice, it would be fraught with sin and injustice. We cannot judge God, only read what He says is so, and accept it as it is given. There are many scriptures that warn us of consequences for our actions. If we suffer eternally, such will 1) be because of our own choices 2) will leave God just, and we unjustified/unjustifiable 3) will happen regardless of our finite, feeble attempts to make it otherwise.

Those who start and support annihilation or universalism 1) do not believe in their own wickedness/fallen nature. They are 'too good' to need a Savior or deserve hell lain: 2) They reject God's Word and prefer their own counsel and thus make a god in their own image. They are 'nicer' than God and serve one who is not the God of Scripture 3) Being too good to need a Savior, they reject Him and their need for Him.

Annihilation is supported by the scriptures. Hence they warn us to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell, and the lake of fire is called the second death. Furthermore, for them to not die would require that they have eternal life. But eternal life is the reward of God's people who have lived for what is right and good, doing God's will.

The only group of people that it speaks of as having an eternal suffering are those who worship the beast and his image, who accept his mark.

 

[ok doser]

The only group of people that it speaks of as having an eternal suffering are those who worship the beast and his image, who accept his mark.

and who do you think they are?

 

[Mickiel]

You are being disingenuous Mikiel. In the first place, we know there are exceptions to this general rule: people have been resurrected and died a second time even before the judgement. In the second place, you are ignoring the various scriptures that speak about the judgement and the consequences that occur to those who are judged negatively and do not recieve enternal life. You cling to that one word, but in of itself it does not establish what you want - especially when you look at ALL of scripture. Again, here's the passage from revelations that discusses the judgement:

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. ​

I don't think I am being disingenuous, I am just not a biblical head hunter, I don't search the scriptures for the condemnation of unbelievers, I search the scriptures for life, and I have found it in there. Sure humans will be thrown into the fire, I never disagree with. However I search for life, and I see a way for humans to come out of the fire, renewed. Again Jesus in Mark 9:49, "For everyone shall be salted with fire." I don't see the fire like you do, I don't see the destruction of any human thrown in the fire; they will come out " Salted", or seasoned, or better off than before.

I am not urged to see unbelievers in some eternal mess or some harsh eternal death. I am led to believe in the mercy and grace of God doing something about evil humans and people who just don't know what to believe. To change them. 1 Corinth. 3:15, "If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself SHALL BE SAVED, by FIRE!" I see salvation in the fire, you see condemnation, because you are urged and led to see that.

I am not disingenuous, I am just different than you. We can look at the same biblical verses, and see things totally different. We see as we are motivated to see. What we see is based on a spirit, which spirit is there, I will not judge that in others. It is also based on our life experience, our ability to learn, our personal desires, and people who influence us; all these paint the picture you see in scripture.

People who see condemnation for others, do not see mercy for them, they don't see grace for them, they don't see forgiveness for them, because of what is inside of them- their own lives and desires fuel what they see in scripture. Your personal life is behind how you judge others; hell is what YOU would do to sinners. If YOU have your way, then unbelievers, AND people like me who do believe, but see it far different than you, we will be sentenced by your life experiences and how YOU are and what YOU want done with me by God. YOU want me to be hurt for all eternity. That is just cold blooded!

 

[Lon]

Annihilation is supported by the scriptures. Hence they warn us to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell, and the lake of fire is called the second death. Furthermore, for them to not die would require that they have eternal life. But eternal life is the reward of God's people who have lived for what is right and good, doing God's will.

The only group of people that it speaks of as having an eternal suffering are those who worship the beast and his image, who accept his mark.

Unitarians and Arians generally believe in annihilation but when Jesus gave Luke 16:19-32 it does not balk at ongoing suffering. The point? Consequences do not go away just because 'we want them to.' This is man's sensibilities superimposing on what actually exists and is. You nor I can "wish with all my might, wish upon a star!" something will go away or 'stop' offending our sensibilities. When did your sensibility become God? We so often insist on our sensibility being god, that we attempt to rewrite God. We have to FIRST determine what is, whether we wish it one way or another (because that will NEVER matter), and then deal with what actually exists.

Annihilationists and Universalists do this EXACTLY backwards, making their sensibilities "god," rather than accepting the God who exists

Give me scriptures. This thread sadly is a LOT of humanism.

 

[csuguy]

and who do you think they are?

... Those who worship the beast and his image, taking his mark. Is this a trick question? :AMR:

 

[ok doser]

well, i always understood them to be all those who are not saved, the lost, the damned

 

[csuguy]

I don't think I am being disingenuous, I am just not a biblical head hunter, I don't search the scriptures for the condemnation of unbelievers, I search the scriptures for life, and I have found it in there. Sure humans will be thrown into the fire, I never disagree with. However I search for life, and I see a way for humans to come out of the fire, renewed. Again Jesus in Mark 9:49, "For everyone shall be salted with fire." I don't see the fire like you do, I don't see the destruction of any human thrown in the fire; they will come out " Salted", or seasoned, or better off than before.

I am not urged to see unbelievers in some eternal mess or some harsh eternal death. I am led to believe in the mercy and grace of God doing something about evil humans and people who just don't know what to believe. To change them. 1 Corinth. 3:15, "If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself SHALL BE SAVED, by FIRE!" I see salvation in the fire, you see condemnation, because you are urged and led to see that.

I am not disingenuous, I am just different than you. We can look at the same biblical verses, and see things totally different. We see as we are motivated to see. What we see is based on a spirit, which spirit is there, I will not judge that in others. It is also based on our life experience, our ability to learn, our personal desires, and people who influence us; all these paint the picture you see in scripture.

People who see condemnation for others, do not see mercy for them, they don't see grace for them, they don't see forgiveness for them, because of what is inside of them- their own lives and desires fuel what they see in scripture. Your personal life is behind how you judge others; hell is what YOU would do to sinners. If YOU have your way, then unbelievers, AND people like me who do believe, but see it far different than you, we will be sentenced by your life experiences and how YOU are and what YOU want done with me by God. YOU want me to be hurt for all eternity. That is just cold blooded!

I'm not a 'biblical head hunder' either. What I seek is the truth. You apparently prefer to reject the truth of the scriptures for a lie that makes you feel better.

The fact is that justice is a form of love too. You can't leave murders, theives, rapists, etc. to run free. You can offer them forgiveness if they will repent, but if they refuse to repent and keep on with their sinful ways - they must be stopped for the sake of those they are harming. This is what you are proposing: let them run free because you don't want to be saddened by ending them. But the result of this is that they continue to harm and kill innocent people.

 

[csuguy]

well, i always understood them to be all those who are not saved, the lost, the damned

I think that is a common misconeption. However, if you review the passages on the fate of those who do not recieve eternal life you will find that only this sub-group is said to suffer like this for eternity. The rest have an eternal punishment to be sure: death.

 

[csuguy]

Unitarians and Arians generally believe in annihilation but when Jesus gave Luke 16:19-32 it does not balk at ongoing suffering. The point? Consequences do not go away just because 'we want them to.' This is man's sensibilities superimposing on what actually exists and is. You nor I can "wish with all my might, wish upon a star!" something will go away or 'stop' offending our sensibilities. When did your sensibility become God? We so often insist on our sensibility being god, that we attempt to rewrite God. We have to FIRST determine what is, whether we wish it one way or another (because that will NEVER matter), and then deal with what actually exists.

Annihilationists and Universalists do this EXACTLY backwards, making their sensibilities "god," rather than accepting the God who exists

Give me scriptures. This thread sadly is a LOT of humanism.

REv 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

The scriptures are clear: to be cast into hell is to die, the lake of fire is the second death where body and soul are destroyed. This is the 'reward' of unrepentant sin.

You turn: if these people are to suffer for eternity then they cannot die. Establish from scripture that they receive eternal life, which is a prerequisite to eternal suffering.

 

[serpentdove]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity?

:yawn: Ad infinitum Eph 4:14

Heb 12:17

Gone ~ Montgomery Gentry

 

[ok doser]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity?

He doesn't "co-exist" with it - it is separate from Him


which is kinda the point

 

[serpentdove]

Why would God need a hell, when he has seven Spirits...

"[T]he seven Spirits. There are two possible meanings: 1) a reference to Isaiah’s prophecy concerning the 7-fold ministry of the Holy Spirit (Is. 11:2); or 2) more likely, it is a reference to the lampstand with 7 lamps (a menorah) in Zechariah—also a description of the Holy Spirit (See note on 4:5; 5:6; Zech. 4:1–10). In either case, 7 is the number of completeness, so John is identifying the fullness of the Holy Spirit." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1992). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

 

[serpentdove]

God created you to live, to have life abundantly...[Y]ou don't have to believe it...

1 Jn 3:23

 

[serpentdove]

In Isaiah 2:2, it says in the last days God's house shall be established, and ALL nations will " Flow Into it." No one from any nation will be left out.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it [Isa. 2:2].

"“It shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains.” Again let me say that this is not speaking of the last days of the church. The last days of the church pertain to the time of spiritual apostasy. Paul makes this clear in his pastoral epistles of 1 and 2 Timothy: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith …” (1 Tim. 4:1). You can see that the “latter times” of the church and the “last days” of Israel are not identical, nor are they contemporary, although there is some overlapping. Certainly they do not refer to the same period of time. It is important to note this. The “last days” in this verse refer to the Great Tribulation period. The Lord Jesus Christ made it clear, when His disciples asked Him, “When shall these things be?” (Luke 21:7 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem) that by the “last days” He meant the Great Tribulation period. The Great Tribulation ends with the coming of Christ to earth and the setting up of His Kingdom. The first section of Isaiah, chapters 2–5, deals with the Great Tribulation period and the Kingdom that shall be set up on this earth.

“The mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains.” This pertains to the nation of Israel after the church has been removed. The word mountain in Scripture means “a kingdom, an authority, or a rule.” Daniel makes this clear in his prophecy. “The LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains”—that is, above all the kingdoms of this earth. The kingdoms of this world shall become the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, and He will be King of kings and Lord of lords. One of the reasons that today Israel is such a hot spot and such a sensitive piece of real estate is because it is the very spot that God has chosen to be the political and religious center of the world during the Kingdom Age. Speaking of those days Daniel says, “Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (Dan. 2:35). God’s Kingdom will be exalted above the kingdoms of this world." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophets (Isaiah 1-35) (electronic ed., Vol. 22, pp. 33–34). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Lon]

REv 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

The scriptures are clear: to be cast into hell is to die, the lake of fire is the second death where body and soul are destroyed. This is the 'reward' of unrepentant sin.

You turn: if these people are to suffer for eternity then they cannot die. Establish from scripture that they receive eternal life, which is a prerequisite to eternal suffering.

I already gave Luke 16:24 remember? You already admitted that those who receive the Mark will suffer as well. Dozer asked who those persons were.

See more here

 

[serpentdove]

...Prov.22:2...Your salvation is NOT in your hands...

"Pr 2:21–22 Chapter 2 concludes by describing the results of following wisdom. The upright and those with integrity (see note on v. 7) inhabit the land, while the wicked are cut off. To inhabit the land means to live in safety and enjoy Yahweh’s blessing (10:30; Psa 37:3–4). While “the land” can refer specifically to Israel (Deut 4:1), here it is best understood as meaning the earth in general." Barry, J. D., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Pr 2:21–22). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.