beloved57
Well-known member
Was Abraham commanded to worship a golden calf?
Why We Are Justified by Faith Alone
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Was Abraham commanded to worship a golden calf?
turbosixx
New member
I’m trying to understand what you’re saying.
I agree he does talk about the Gentiles who did not have the law given to them and how some lived according to it. I understand him to be talking about the old law in this instance and I don’t see how we can apply it to the new. If someone doesn’t hear the gospel then I can see how this would apply but I don’t see how it can apply to those who hear and disbelieve.
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Maybe we have different understandings of what it means to believe. Here is mine, what is yours?
I understand belief to be a verb which means action. When one hears the word if they truly believe then they will act. Like in this parable.
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."
Responding to the gospel means you conform to the will of God living according to Christ's commands.
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
I agree he does talk about the Gentiles who did not have the law given to them and how some lived according to it. I understand him to be talking about the old law in this instance and I don’t see how we can apply it to the new. If someone doesn’t hear the gospel then I can see how this would apply but I don’t see how it can apply to those who hear and disbelieve.
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Maybe we have different understandings of what it means to believe. Here is mine, what is yours?
I understand belief to be a verb which means action. When one hears the word if they truly believe then they will act. Like in this parable.
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."
Responding to the gospel means you conform to the will of God living according to Christ's commands.
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
turbosixx
New member
I don't see in Acts 15 how this makes James a Judaizer. It says Paul disagreed with "some men" and they went to see the apostles about it.
1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
You have to read a lot into Galatians 2 to make the claim James taught keeping the law of Moses. If you could walk me through how you see James is a Judaizer it might help. Peter seems to be more of the Judaizer in this case. He withdrew himself, reverting back to how he lived most of his life, on his own.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You confuse "faith" with the "obedience of faith."
They are not the same thing. I have never found even one Greek expert who says that the Greek word translated "believe" means obedience. That word does not mean "obedience" in any way, shape or form.
So evidently you do not understand or believe the gospel of grace stated here:
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is revealed, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).
Please reconsider and believe the gospel of grace where it is stated that the righteousness of God comes to those who believe, and that belief is apart from any obedience whatsoever.
If you continue to deny that truth then how can you be sure that you are saved?:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
James sent men to spy on Peter to see if he was eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:12. a Jewish no, no.
James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. He wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-20. Paul wanted no part of it.
turbosixx
New member
When I read the examples the bible gives us of judgment day, being separated to eternal life or eternal death, those being judged are always judged by their deeds. Here is one example,
Rom. 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
If you know of an example of judgment based on whether one believes or disbelieves, that would help me.
I would suggest to you that disobedience is disbelief.
Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
turbosixx
New member
No wonder I didn't see it before because it's not there. You're adding the spying here, it just says a group came down and Peter withdrew. It's something he had done all his life. Acts 10:28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; It says "some men" wanted to circumcise not James.
These are just excuses not to believe what James taught Christians.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
First, notice that Paul is here speaking of God judging men according to their deeds or works and this passage has nothing to do with a man's faith.
If a person continues in doing good then he will earn eternal life. But if he sins and does not continue in doing well then he will not earn eternal life. And Paul makes it plain that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore, no one will earn eternal life by his deeds or works.
And later in the same epistle Paul makes it plain that it is those who worketh not but believe who are justified in the eyes of God:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).
You just refuse to believe what is so plain in Paul's epistles, that one's faith is counted for righteousness.
How about this:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (Jn.3:18).
And these words of the Lord Jesus:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
turbosixx
New member
You are adding “earn”. What must a person do to EARN eternal life??
turbosixx
New member
That’s my point. They receive eternal life based on their deeds which is an indicator of their faith. Those that have faith have good deeds and those who do not obey do not have faith. The two go hand in hand.
Looking at the context, what is Paul’s point by bringing up Abraham?
I believe it with all my heart.
All true. This was written and spoken to Jews BEFORE the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. In their minds, they are already children of God because they were born into God’s people. Jesus is telling them something new, you have to born again and you have to believe.
After he has died for everyone’s sins, what does he tell them?
Make disciples baptizing them “in the name of” and he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. That’s what puts us into Christ, being baptized in his name. He couldn't say they needed to be baptized before his D,B &R, because it wasn't backed by his blood.
What? Faith is proof of belief, it's the evidence of things not seen.
You may claim to love others but if no one ever sees your love what good is it?
Talking a good talk is not the same as walking a good walk.
The book of John was written in 85 A.D.
No one is born saved. They must be born again, 1 Peter 1:23.
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Robert Pate Pretexts Without Context
Robert Pate Pretexts Without Context
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Your-Savior&p=4848714&viewfull=1#post4848714
Unless one wants to fall victim to the cultish tactics of using terms universally understood, as if this gives the person making these statement an air of credibility, a person must press the person making such statement further to uncover their misunderstandings or deliberate attempts to deceive.
Robert, you are subtle and crafty when it comes to speaking about sacred matters. You can avoid this by being more substantive in what you state as but opinion, by supporting your opinions with analysis and detail, not mere quotations of Scripture, pretexting without context.
AMR
Robert Pate Pretexts Without Context
I know this is what you say, but when one digs a wee bit deeper into what you think the passage means by "be born again" your error is ripped from its darkness into the light for all to see:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Your-Savior&p=4848714&viewfull=1#post4848714
Unless one wants to fall victim to the cultish tactics of using terms universally understood, as if this gives the person making these statement an air of credibility, a person must press the person making such statement further to uncover their misunderstandings or deliberate attempts to deceive.
Robert, you are subtle and crafty when it comes to speaking about sacred matters. You can avoid this by being more substantive in what you state as but opinion, by supporting your opinions with analysis and detail, not mere quotations of Scripture, pretexting without context.
AMR
I think the error of both gentlemen lies in their belief that people are born dead in sin.
That belief led Robert to conclude that people need to be born again, or regenerated. For him, when a person believes in Christ and accepts Him as personal Savior, then he is regenerated or born again. But AMR disagrees. And I think, AMR is correct.
But still, for me, AMR is not correct in believing all of God's elect will all make it to heaven, as Calvinism teaches in the "P" of Calvinism's TULIP. My reason is Jesus' own statement:
KJV Matthew 8:11-12 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
AMR may perhaps agree with me that God's elect are children of the kingdom of heaven. Yet, clearly in the quoted verses above, Jesus speaks of children of the kingdom, and hence elect, as being cast out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Elsewhere in the Bible, Jesus describes the place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as furnace of fire; in Revelation it is called the lake of fire.
turbosixx
New member
People try to discredit the book of James by saying he was a Judaizer. I see no evidence to support this notion. He was an inspired writer writing to Christians.
They don't like the fact that the only time the bible says "faith alone" it says just the opposite of what they say.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
turbosixx
New member
There are differing opinions when it was written but most of it is about things and conversations that took place before Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
As usual you see everything through your Calvinist glasses.
We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel. There is no other way that anyone can be born again. No, God did not zapp you with the Holy Spirit, like you want to believe.
Paul said to the Galatians, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.
Peter said that you must be born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.
I suspect that you have not been born again, simply because the word "Gospel" is not in your vocabulary.
You have a different Bible than I do.
The whole book of John is about Jesus Christ, his life, his death and his resurrection.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Earlier I said:
To which you replied:
I cannot find any Greek expert who says that the Greek word translated "faith" means anything other than believe or conviction. And here is how "faith" is defined in the Bible:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).
Do you believe that Paul makes it plain here that nothing but faith is needed for a person to be counted as righteous in the eyes of the Lord:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).
Here the word "faith" is used in the sense of "believing," as the context indicates.
You just refuse to believe what is so plain in Paul's epistles, that one's faith is counted for righteousness.
To which you replied:
I cannot find any Greek expert who says that the Greek word translated "faith" means anything other than believe or conviction. And here is how "faith" is defined in the Bible:
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).
Do you believe that Paul makes it plain here that nothing but faith is needed for a person to be counted as righteous in the eyes of the Lord:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).
Here the word "faith" is used in the sense of "believing," as the context indicates.
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