Why Homosexuality Must NOT Be Criminalized

[Arthur Brain]

Im not a theif or rapist or murderer either but i could choose to be.

Do i think its possible hugh dabbled around with guys too? Sure, hes a sex freak.

Could you choose to 'dabble around' with women? If so you ain't straight.

Get a grip. It's bloody obvious that Hefner is straight regardless of what you think about his life or morals. It really is desperate to try and paint him otherwise. You must think Trump is potentially gay or bi as well right?

:doh:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Could you choose to 'dabble around' with women? If so you ain't straight.

I completely disagree.

Get a grip. It's bloody obvious that Hefner is straight regardless of what you think about his life or morals. It really is desperate to try and paint him otherwise. You must think Trump is potentially gay or bi as well right?

:doh:

Hold on hoss, i dont think hugh heffner is gay, YOU are who have the false conclusion that if a person has even a one time attraction or tryst (which i highly suspect hugh of) then they are gay, gay in my view is someone who had made it their lifestyle, to the exclusion of all else.

Dont pretend your definition is mine.

I dont think prisoners who are married to women but later engage with one another just while in prison are "gay" either or bi.

 

[glassjester]

How about you start with yourself? Are you attracted to the opposite gender, the same or both?

:think:

I am attracted to my wife.

Are you attracted to an entire gender? Half the people in the world?

 

[Arthur Brain]

I completely disagree.

Why? I've never felt remotely attracted to another bloke on any sort of sexual level and actually feel :vomit: at the thought of it. You don't fee the same in regards to another woman?

:think:

Hold on hoss, i dont think hugh heffner is gay, YOU are who have the false conclusion that if a person has even a one time attraction or tryst (which i highly suspect hugh of) then they are gay, gay in my view is someone who had made it their lifestyle, to the exclusion of all else.

Dont pretend your definition is mine.

I dont think prisoners who are married to women but later engage with one another just while in prison are "gay" either or bi.

There's nothing to suggest he's ever had any sort of homosexual attraction full stop. You're the one who said you wouldn't be surprised by it because in your own words: 'he's a sex freak'.

So, do you think the same about Trump? Is he harboring mints in case the right man comes along for him to lay the lips on?

Seriously, get a grip.

:doh:

 

[Arthur Brain]

I am attracted to my wife.

Are you attracted to an entire gender? Half the people in the world?

No, but all those attractions involve the opposite sex.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I meant, would you alone have not engaged in homosexual activity?
Would you have thought, as I assume you do now, "That's disgusting; I'm not going to do that." ?

I would hardly have been alone would I? Either way Beyonce songs wouldn't have been around...

 

[Arthur Brain]

There's a theory out there that michelle is actually a man named michael

Yeah, there's another promoting the idea that Hugh Hefner is actually one of his own girlfriends but his advertising team just bring out a life size cutout of some bloke in a dressing gown and a cigar to his promotional events...

Go figure.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Since when is homosexual, only denoting of men?

In case this is what you think I've 'failed' to address:

It isn't, and never has been. In fact, the hypocrisy where it comes to homosexuality is completely laughable as 90% plus is directed at gay men and very little in regards to women, mainly because religious zealots are that hung up on a particular sex act that many heterosexual couples engage in as well ironically enough, which makes it all the more laughable...

Or not, depending.

 

[MrDante]

Does saying things like this help you feel better about yourself?

I always feel good when presenting a fact

 

[MrDante]

Feel better? How?
I didn't know I was in need of consolation...

Oh, wait. You were trying to insult me. Ok.

You can do better.

It was an actual question.

Not that I thought for a moment you would actually answer

 

[MrDante]

You said homosexuality was not the norm. But it was.

Wrong. Heterosexuality was the norm The Athenians viewed homosexuality as normal, natural and had no particular stigma attached to it.
Kenneth Dover. Greek Homosexuality. 1989
Bruce Thornton. Eros: The Myth of Ancient Greek Sexuality. 1997
David Halperin. One Hundred Years of Homosexuality: And Other Essays on Greek Love. 1990

 

[MrDante]

AB, your stance is asinine.

To claim one is born a certain way based on attraction to "whatever" doesnt mean its ok, doesnt mean its right, doesnt mean its acceptable, period.

Murder isnt acceptable because one is attracted to it, rape isnt acceptable because one is attracted to it, pedophilia, isnt acceptable because one is attracted to it, and theft, and homosexual relations, etc, are not acceptable because someone is attracted to it. Period.

Comparing a minority to murder is asinine and bigoted.

Comparing a minority to rape is asinine and hateful.

Comparing a minority to pedophilia is asinine and truly perverted.

No one is born a hateful bigoted pervert, it is entirely a choice which doesn't mean its ok, doesn't mean its right, doesn't mean its acceptable, period

 

[MrDante]

Or there's no such thing as orientation.
The Greeks didn't have it.

Are we so genetically different from them?

They didn't have a word for it. Note the difference.

 

[Clete]

Except you base your ideas for 'justice' today on OT laws of the time.

Justice is not dependant on time. What was moral then is moral now and what was immoral then is immoral now.

Malachi 3:And I will come near you for judgment;
I will be a swift witness
Against sorcerers,
Against adulterers,
Against perjurers,
Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans,
And against those who turn away an alien—
Because they do not fear Me,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.​

You yourself go on to concede that it's hardly a simplistic issue and plenty of things deemed criminal in communal times are hardly applied today.

Yes, not all of Israel's laws were of a moral nature. Many of them had to do with their religious practices which have no application outside the context of Israel as a nation in special covenant relationship with God. Since that relationship does not currently exist, even for Israel itself, there is, therefore, no proper legal application of those statutes. The concept is rather simple but it is not always easy to tell for certain whether one particular law or another is moral in nature or only applied because of Israel's special relationship with God. Most of the laws, however, are easy - rather obvious even.

I want there to be a system that targets crime in a preventative as much as a punitive manner but I also want it to target the right people, those who kill, rape, torture, molest, are violent etc, not those who's 'crime' is to be in a homosexual relationship. I mean, where would you draw the line? Would you have non married cohabitation between straight people be punishable as well?

You ask questions as though these issues are matters of opinion. They are not! I would draw the line where God draws it. The only reason you don't want to draw the same line is that somewhere inside, you have the idea that God is unjust. You think that God is mean and nasty and hates people, or at least that's what you feel when you consider the notion that homosexuality is a capital crime.

Without looking it up, what would you guess God's idea is about what the punishment should be for fornication?

There isn't a perfect system no, and the chances are there'll never be one that works 100% and trying to enact one that policies society's sexual mores is untenable in itself, certainly in a bustling modern day society.

The closest thing we'll ever see to a perfect criminal justice system is the one God devised.

And it's perfectly tenable. What would be untenable about it? You enact the law and when someone breaks it, you try them and punish them upon conviction. It would work just fine. If anything today's modern society would make it easier.

Not only that, it would detract from actual serious crime going on.

How so?

To begin with, there would be a whole lot less crime going on because the punishments called for in the bible actually would deter crime. In addition, much of today's violent crime as well as many other our societal ills come as a result of our failure to enforce the moral laws called for in the bible.

This is speculation but I'd predict that if you enacted just laws in this country, we'd drop from the hundreds of thousands of murders every year down to something less than a thousand.

For the sake of consistency you'd have to have laws that would have any sort of non married sexual activity to be a crime, and how are you going to police that?

No I wouldn't!

See what I mean? You think God is an unjust buly who wants to invade everyone's privacy.

Homsexuality and adultery et. al. were crimes in this country for many decades and have been against the law throughout western culture for centuries. The laws worked just fine.

Other than somehow turning society into a dystopia akin to 1984 it's not going to happen. Nobody apart from religious fanatics want a theocratic state, it runs contrary to liberty and freedom that informs part of your own country's constitution, along with the West in general.

Is that what you think Israel was for centuries? This is just rediculous! Dystopian societies are created by unjust laws and liberalism, not the other way around.

No, I'm just not a religious zealot and I value the freedoms we have in the West that other countries less fortunate are deprived of.

There is no society that could be more free than that who's laws are just. You live in a society where people are literally free to be criminals and to perform actions that God Himself said where not merely sins but crimes worthy of death (in both the Old AND New Testaments of the Bible).

You seem like a reasonable person. I encourage you to think this through more thoroughly. Ask yourself, if such laws would create a dystopian society, why is there no indication that any such soceity existed in Israel? Ask yourself why you are so set against a legal system that you've never bothered to familarize yourself with. And stop listening to conventional wisdom on such issues! Take notice when people imply that God is unjust. Take notice when they make arguments about things that pertain to a society under just laws that would only apply in today's society which has unjust laws (i.e. category error). Actually put some effort into actually thinking through why you think the laws against immoral acts that God Himself enacted wouldn't work or would be unjust.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Town Heretic]

If a gene was found years ago, society's reactions would be different and the homosexual's behavoir would be different

That presupposes the objection to homosexuality is rational in nature. I'd advance the notion that it demonstrably isn't. It's rooted in the ethnocentric response to the other. The degree of comfort most people feel with one another is predicated on likeness. That's why political parties and religious affiliations thrive, by way of example. We're geared to see and establish patterns, with the closest and most familiar ones having a likeness of authority and emotional resonance with us. Family, state, nation, etc. They inform our contextual address of the rest and to the extent of difference, invite a more militant response (not family, Yankees, competing nations, etc). So the more alike we believe ourselves to be the more comfortable most humans are and the farther you go out on a limb away from that trunk the greater the discomfort with a difference becomes. It's true on the cultural and personal level. And that's without the additional institutionalizing and reflection of that impulse in religious beliefs and/or practices.

Add to that the challenge inherent in any idea that runs contrary to the mean at one of the most profound (and so profoundly sensitive) areas of human life and interaction, mating, and you have a recipe for a profoundly resonate emotional and negative response. In a great many that response will even resemble a threat response of a physical nature. It will be difficult to address it on a purely intellectual level. It has to be encompassed on an emotional one as well, usually by sufficient familiarity to remove a measure of the alien and other. Not to say it has to become an acceptable idea to the person responding, only one that is understood to be other than a challenge to or direct threat in its difference, so that a detente of sorts is reached.

 

[The Horn]

Why would anyone "choose" to be gay in a world which is so hostile to gay people ? Does this make any sense . Do heterosexuals "choose" to be heterosexual ?

 

[ok doser]

Why would anyone "choose" to be gay in a world which is so hostile to gay people ? Does this make any sense . Do heterosexuals "choose" to be heterosexual ?

why would anyone "choose" to be a pedophile in a world which is so hostile to pedophiles ?

 

[ok doser]

... The fact that you're trying to allude to Hugh Hefner being possibly gay is just too funny for words...

Hefner acknowledged having bisexual liaisons in the past: "There was some bisexuality in the heterosexual, swinging part of my life," he said. But any notion that he preferred men was "projection" on the part of Leigh, who was "obsessed" with gay life, he said. (Leigh has also acknowledged having homosexual affairs during her years with Hefner; she is now married and has a child.) Says Hefner: "I was testing the boundaries, just knocking down walls. . . . That period of sexual experimentation is long gone." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/10/000r-101099-idx.html

 

[ok doser]

...homosexuality is a "choice" that straight people can make ...

heterosexuality is the normal default setting

homosexuality is a perversion of that

of course it's a choice

 

[ok doser]

I am attracted to my wife.

Are you attracted to an entire gender? Half the people in the world?

exactly


there are more females in the world to whom i am not attracted than those to whom i am attracted