Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No. If Jesus had a human soul then He has to have two minds. The mind of God and the mind of a man.

This is why you are having so many problems grasping the truth. You think Jesus is double-minded, and you are intent on being like Him.

There was only one self-consciousness of Christ. This is what Personhood means. You fail to distinguish this from a human consciousness that was forever in submission to the self-consciousness of God the Son. One Person, two natures. Read Evoken's post again slowly and carefully. Then read this. Eventually you will see the truth.

 

[Mystery]

If God incarnate actually died on the cross then this makes no sense....

Sure it does. Why is it that none of you have a basic comprehension of what death is?

When you die, do you become inanimate? Do you cease from your concious self? Or do you just leave your body to be present with the Lord?

 

[Mystery]

No, they do not. Feel free to cite a passage that says: "God died on the cross". Not Christ or Lord Jesus, not the Son of God/Man or anything else but simply that exact phrase.

I gave you the verses. There is no "exact phrase" that says "Jesus is God" either, do you also deny that? I suspect you do.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

When the body of Jesus died, God departed the body of Jesus.

Error! The union of the divine with the human was not dissolved, even at death of the body.

Even after death, hypostatic union between the human and the divine natures was preserved--recall that the union cannot be separated, confused, mixed, or divided.

This means that the hypostatic union was present in Paradise for those three days.

So both the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, and the human soul of the man Jesus were both in Paradise, still joined, forever joined, hypostatically.

Yet, this does not mean that God was confined to Paradise, for God is everywhere present. God can certainly be hypostatically joined with the human soul of Jesus and still be everywhere else, just as He is always, just as when Christ says wherever two or three believers are present, so is He present.

This also does not mean that somehow the Persons of the Trinity were now divided and one was absent from the other two. God is everywhere present. The three Persons of the Trinity are subsistences of one, single, divine, essence, God. For example, when we are filled with the Holy Spirit that does not mean the Spirit is absent from the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is God, just as is the Father and the Son.

 

[Mystery]

God the Son could not die. That’s why He had to become a man and live for 30 years without sinning.

This has already been pointed out to AMR that Pastor Hill is stating that God had to become a man in order to taste death, but it was still God who tasted death. If it was only a man who tasted death, then why would God need to be in Christ?

 

[Mystery]

Error! The union of the divine with the human was not dissolved, even at death of the body.

Then God died on the cross.

Which one of your two minds are you using this time?

 

[Evoken]

I gave you the verses. There is no "exact phrase" that says "Jesus is God" either, do you also deny that? I suspect you do.

The point is that you are failing to acknowledge the distinction between the two natures that is made in Scripture when Christ is refereed to as being distinct from God and when it says that God raised him from the dead. It is the same distinction that Christ himself makes when he says that none is good (himself included) but God (Mark 10:18). Such distinctions make no sense if they are referring to Christ as God and not as man, that is, if Christ had only a divine nature.


Evo

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Then God died on the cross.

Even after death, hypostatic union between the human and the divine natures was preserved--recall that the union cannot be separated, confused, mixed, or divided.

This means that the hypostatic union was present in Paradise for those three days.

So both the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, and the human soul of the man Jesus were both in Paradise, still joined, forever joined, hypostatically.

Yet, this does not mean that God was confined to Paradise, for God is everywhere present. God can certainly be hypostatically joined with the human soul of Jesus and still be everywhere else, just as He is always, just as when Christ says wherever two or three believers are present, so is He present.

When you die, your soul is separated from your physical body, which is no longer a living organism, and your soul no longer present on earth. Your soul is confined to one of two eternal places. Was the Son of God exclusively confined to Paradise for three days? In other words, was God confined to one location at the death of Christ? Was the Son of God, which is God, no longer present everywhere on earth during those three days in Paradise?

Do you now see the error?

 

[Nang]

That is what I have affirmed.

God, the Son, died on the cross. Do you deny that God died on the cross?

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and perfect Man, died on the cross.

Is the entire "Triune God" in Christ when the Son prayed to the Father? Or did the Son depart during prayer time too?

Here is where you fail to comprehend the Person of the Christ. Jesus prayed from His human soul (nature) as a Man to His Father in heaven. It is this Manhood that you deny.

Was God in Christ when the world was being reconciled unto God?

Jesus Christ was the Lord from heaven, possessing a divine and Godly nature, as well as a human nature, which worked the miracle of reconciliation of temporal creatures with God. Only a God/Man could achieve this feat.

When was the world reconciled to God, at His death or some other event?

Christ's righteous obedience, suffering of judgment, and vicarious death on the cross eventuated in the legal rendering of pardon for those persons He represented in His flesh. Reconciliation between men and God was achieved through total satisfaction of the Law, remission of sins via ransom paid, and divine imputation of Christ's righteousness.

Death is not the end of a person, just the separation from the body.

There is no way this (simplistic) definition of "death," could apply to God who is Spirit.

When the body of Jesus died, God departed the body of Jesus.

Where does Scripture teach this? Would this not be a schism created within the Godhead? The Persons of the Trinity cannot be separated. And all Persons of the Trinity represent life; death not being possible or holding power over God at all.

Jesus did not die until He gave up His spirit. Was this the Holy Spirit, or was this His human spirit?

You have God departing the body of Jesus before He died, and a fourth person taking over to die for our sins.

This is your argument issuing from your confusion, alone. No one is teaching a "fourth person." We are teaching the Son of God come in the flesh, possessing both a divine nature and a human nature, as the One identified in His Person as the Lord from heaven.


"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." I Corinthians 15:45-49

This is the result of the "reconciliation" to which you refer.

Nang

 

[Mystery]

Even after death, hypostatic union between the human and the divine natures was preserved--recall that the union cannot be separated, confused, mixed, or divided.

This means that the hypostatic union was present in Paradise for those three days.

So both the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, and the human soul of the man Jesus were both in Paradise, still joined, forever joined, hypostatically.

Yet, this does not mean that God was confined to Paradise, for God is everywhere present. God can certainly be hypostatically joined with the human soul of Jesus and still be everywhere else, just as He is always, just as when Christ says wherever two or three believers are present, so is He present.

When you die, your soul is separated from your physical body, which is no longer a living organism, and your soul no longer present on earth. Your soul is confined to one of two eternal places. Was the Son of God exclusively confined to Paradise for three days? In other words, was God confined to one location at the death of Christ? Was the Son of God, which is God, no longer present everywhere on earth during those three days in Paradise?

Do you now see the error?

Of course I see your error, that's why I have been posting the truth.

Are you sure you're okay? A lttle too much rum punch for your birthday last night? :dead:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Of course I see your error, that's why I have been posting the truth.

Non-responsive.

When you die, your soul is separated from your physical body, which is no longer a living organism, and your soul no longer present on earth. Your soul is confined to one of two eternal places. Was the Son of God exclusively confined to Paradise for three days? In other words, was God confined to one location at the death of Christ? Was the Son of God, which is God, no longer present everywhere on earth during those three days in Paradise?

 

[Mystery]

The point is that you are failing to acknowledge the distinction between the two natures that is made in Scripture when Christ is refereed to as being distinct from God and when it says that God raised him from the dead. It is the same distinction that Christ himself makes when he says that none is good (himself included) but God (Mark 10:18). Such distinctions make no sense if they are referring to Christ as God and not as man, that is, if Christ had only a divine nature.


Evo

When Christ declared that none is good, but God, He was declaring Himself God. He was simply telling the person that if you are going to call Him a "good teacher" then you are going to have to call Him God, because only God is good.

You guys really need to be cleansed of all of your religious baggage.

 

[Evoken]

When Christ declared that none is good, but God, He was declaring Himself God. He was simply telling the person that if you are going to call Him a "good teacher" then you are going to have to call Him God, because only God is good.

That is not what the verse says Mystery, you are reading your theology into the text. Here is what the verse says:

Mark 10:17-18
"And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man running up and kneeling before him, asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting? And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God."

Christ clearly distinguishes between God and himself. This corresponds with the rest of the distinctions made between God and Christ, some of which I have cited already, here are others:

2 Timothy 4:1
"I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom"

John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Ephesians 1:17
"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation, in the knowledge of him"

More verses can be cited but the Scriptures make a distinction between God and Lord Jesus that simply makes no sense if he didn't have a human nature but only a divine one. Unless you want to gravitate towards the position that there are three gods and not one or that Christ is not as fully God as the Father and equal with him, leaving one again with three separate gods, then it cannot be denied that Christ was both fully God and fully man and that the Scriptures refer to his human nature when they make the distinction between God and Christ. The Scripture clearly refer to him as both man and God, the two natures are clearly shown in them.


Evo

 

[Mystery]

Non-responsive.

When you die, your soul is separated from your physical body, which is no longer a living organism, and your soul no longer present on earth. Your soul is confined to one of two eternal places. Was the Son of God exclusively confined to Paradise for three days? In other words, was God confined to one location at the death of Christ? Was the Son of God, which is God, no longer present everywhere on earth during those three days in Paradise?

"Therefore it says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men." (Now this [expression], "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)"

"Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Thy hand will lead me, And Thy right hand will lay hold of me. If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," Even the darkness is not dark to Thee, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to Thee."

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

"Therefore it says, "

Non responsive again for you are afraid to be explicit. Don't leave anything up to personal interpretations. If you believe something you should be able to clearly state it.

1. Was the Son of God exclusively confined to Paradise for three days?
(In other words, was God confined to one location at the death of Christ?)

2. Was the Son of God, which is God, no longer present everywhere on earth during those three days in Paradise?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If you people would study the greater minds of the church, you would do well, for much greater minds than ours have delved into these matters.

Nang

I study God and His word, not religion.

You can have religion, it's way overrated.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Talk to your Pastor and get your doctrine aligned with the Scriptures.

I talk with my Pastor every Sunday. (p.s. my pastor is Bob Enyart)

I doubt Enyart disagrees with the 'two-nature' position of the Incarnation.

Call him on his show and ask him. :up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If God incarnate actually died on the cross then this makes no sense....

I think its clear based on that post that you have no idea what death means.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and perfect Man, died on the cross.

Bingo! I am glad you finally came around. :up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Non responsive again for you are afraid to be explicit.

Listen here you moronic hypocrite.... NOBODY has been more explicit in this thread than Mystery. It is you who is a blasphemous, obfuscating fool.

Our position is abundantly clear. It's your position that floats in and out of what sounds palatable to you. Hypostatic union, schmunion! :blabla: It's all a bunch or religious garbage.

If you reject that the Son died on the cross you are a blatant blasphemer, and you need to repent and adhere yourself to the gospel of Jesus Christ which is found in God's holy word.