When does the biblical day begin?

[clefty]

Again your problem is your lack of reasoning skills.

Well reason it out for me...show me that on the 14th the passover lamb is killed between the evenings...the blood put on the doors...the lamb boiled and eaten that evening and into the night and like every thank offering it is eaten that same day it is offered none of it left to the morning...and at midnight (of the same 24hourday the lambs are killed) the wrath passes over...

Use your reasoning to make that work with evenings beginning the next day...

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Well reason it out for me...show me that on the 14th the passover lamb is killed between the evenings...the blood put on the doors...the lamb boiled and eaten that evening and into the night and like every thank offering it is eaten that same day it is offered none of it left to the morning...and at midnight (of the same 24hourday the lambs are killed) the wrath passes over...

Use your reasoning to make that work with evenings beginning the next day...

Exodus 12:8
That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast.

Yeah again you're not understanding it. 'That same night' does not mean that that 'night' is part of the 12 hour day that comes before it and taken as a whole 24 hour day. Again you can't see why we can't use verses like this. Which is because of your poor comprehension skills.

 

[chair]

... Again you can't see why we can't use verses like this. Which is because of your poor comprehension skills.

Watchman- a word of friendly advice. If you want to have a useful discussion, and even possibly convince someone, don't insult their intelligence. Just explain why they are wrong, and answer their questions.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Watchman- a word of friendly advice. If you want to have a useful discussion, and even possibly convince someone, don't insult their intelligence. Just explain why they are wrong, and answer their questions.

I've been doing that for pages and pages but because their English comprehension is very poor they can't see where they're going wrong. Pointing this out is not an insult it is the problem and needs to be addressed in order for them to improve this skill and see there mistake. Intelligence and English comprehension are interrelated but I would say Clefty has enough intelligence to learn the English comprehension needed to understand his error. Although this is difficult over the internet, would be quicker face to face.

 

[chair]

I've been doing that for pages and pages but because their English comprehension is very poor they can't see where they're going wrong. Pointing this out is not an insult it is the problem and needs to be addressed in order for them to improve this skill and see there mistake. Intelligence and English comprehension are interrelated but I would say Clefty has enough intelligence to learn the English comprehension needed to understand his error. Although this is difficult over the internet, would be quicker face to face.

You are assuming that you are always right, and that anybody who disagrees with you simply "doesn't understand". A little intellectual modesty would do you well- leave the arrogance behind. An IQ of 140 (or whatever you claim) doesn't mean you are always right, and that others are stupid.

You do accomplish two things by knocking other people's intelligence:
1. You upset them
2. You inflate your already inflated ego

 

[clefty]

Exodus 12:8
That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast.

Yeah again you're not understanding it. 'That same night' does not mean that that 'night' is part of the 12 hour day that comes before it and taken as a whole 24 hour day. Again you can't see why we can't use verses like this. Which is because of your poor comprehension skills.

So the Wrath passed over on the 15th at midnight? How odd...that is not the 14th

 

[clefty]

Exodus 12:8
That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast.

Yeah again you're not understanding it. 'That same night' does not mean that that 'night' is part of the 12 hour day that comes before it and taken as a whole 24 hour day. Again you can't see why we can't use verses like this. Which is because of your poor comprehension skills.

"And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning." Lev 7:15

It does seem to say that day includes the following night here...nothing here about eating it before the sun sets...and looks like one can nibble at it all night until morning...

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

You are assuming that you are always right, and that anybody who disagrees with you simply "doesn't understand". A little intellectual modesty would do you well- leave the arrogance behind. An IQ of 140 (or whatever you claim) doesn't mean you are always right, and that others are stupid.

You do accomplish two things by knocking other people's intelligence:
1. You upset them
2. You inflate your already inflated ego

Try to keep control of your emotions, you could learn from Clefty, his emotional intelligence is very good, but in a debate it's a straight forward issue of who is correct and in this case it me.

 

[chair]

Try to keep control of your emotions, you could learn from Clefty, his emotional intelligence is very good, but in a debate it's a straight forward issue of who is correct and in this case it me.

So much for friendly advice.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Saying the same night is different from saying the same day because of 'day' being called both the 12 hour daylight part and the whole 24 hour period. While night is only the dark part. Clefty, it's you poor English comprehension that's stopping you seeing this.

 

[chair]

So the Wrath passed over on the 15th at midnight? How odd...that is not the 14th

I think this will be easier to follow if we leave the days of the month aside for a moment, as the natural tendency is to think in modern western terms.

Let's start on Tuesday, just to illustrate. We will speak in modern terms for now.
Tuesday evening, while it is still light out, say about 5 pm, the lamb is slaughtered, and the blood put on the doorposts. Tuesday after dark, say 9 or 10 pm, the lamb is roasted and eaten. It is finished by Wednesday morning.

In the meantime, during that same night the "wrath" goes through Egypt. Time-wise this would be the midnight between Tuesday and Wednesday.

The schedule is clear. The only question is how one identifies the days.If we call Tuesday until nightfall the 14th, and the 15th starts on Tuesday at nightfall, everything falls into place.

The instructions for the festival that appear a few verses later make this clear:

18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day.​

Chair

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

"And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the morning." Lev 7:15

It does seem to say that day includes the following night here...nothing here about eating it before the sun sets...and looks like one can nibble at it all night until morning...

Just to be clear A thank/peace/fellowship offering is not the Passover meal but this is the best verse you've put forward to argue you case so far. Here is the most accurate translation:

'The flesh of the sacrifice for thanksgiving of his peace offerings on the day that it is offered shall be eaten. He shall not leave any of it until the morning.'

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/7-15.htm

But this is still a little vague, as you said yourself it only 'seems' to indicate a day begins at sunrise. I mean it could be taken that God was saying the offering shall (should) be eaten by the end of the 12 hour daylight part of the day but it must certainly not be left till morning (sunrise). In any caes it certainly is not as clear as any of these:

Exodus 12:6
And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.

Leviticus 23:32
It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."

Numbers 9:5
And they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the first month between the two evenings in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the sons of Israel.

Nehemiah 13:19
So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Repeat

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So much for friendly advice.

I'm far from perfect.

 

[rstrats]

So when was the actual passing over of the Lord; at midnight on the 14th or at midnight on the 15th?

 

[chair]

So when was the actual passing over of the Lord; at midnight on the 14th or at midnight on the 15th?

On the 14th in the evening, the lamb was slaughtered. When the sun set, it became the 15th by the Hebrew reckoning, so it was midnight of the 15th when the firstborn of Egypt died. But be careful- in Western use midnight is the time when one day changes to the next. That is not the case in the Hebrew calendar.

 

[rstrats]

chair,
re: "...be careful- in Western use midnight is the time when one day changes to the next. That is not the case in the Hebrew calendar."


Any particular reason in trying to confuse matters by bringing up Western usage?

 

[chair]

chair,
re: "...be careful- in Western use midnight is the time when one day changes to the next. That is not the case in the Hebrew calendar."


Any particular reason in trying to confuse matters by bringing up Western usage?

Only because I thought it was confusing you.

14th: slaughter lamb before dark
sun sets: now it is the 15th
eat roasted lamb, finish by morning of the 15th
"Wrath" passes by that same night- the 15th.

 

[clefty]

On the 14th in the evening, the lamb was slaughtered. When the sun set, it became the 15th by the Hebrew reckoning, so it was midnight of the 15th when the firstborn of Egypt died. But be careful- in Western use midnight is the time when one day changes to the next. That is not the case in the Hebrew calendar.

So the actual passing over was on the 15th...does this explain why Jews celebrate it on the 15th rather than 14th?

 

[clefty]

So the actual passing over was on the 15th...does this explain why Jews celebrate it on the 15th rather than 14th?

Exodus 12: 14This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord—a lasting ordinance.

So which day are we to commemorate as the passover?...the one the lambs are killed?...or the first born?