When does the biblical day begin?

[clefty]

Not hostile just frustrated.

oh...ok

Just because it says 'The following day' does not mean

ummm yes..."evening, dark, tonight" are distinct from the following day because morning begins the new day...see genesis

the day starts at sun rise because as God says in Genesis He called the light day and therefore it is the following day,

ummm...no...the light is called day which was the first day the same day it was created but numbered at its conclusion...the dawn of the following day

The numbering occurs after completion...just like your birthday...the year lived first then numbered...just like an odometer...the distance travelled first then counted...

because day comes after night.

day came after there was light created after there was darkness not called night but darkness...darkness after light was created was called night

Not day comes after yesterday!

right...day comes after light was created...then it became evening and then night and then morning--the first day or day one

You are confusing night and day with tomorrow and yesterday but this is because of:

Genesis 1
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

oh you do know the verse...its sequence...apply it please

Because God calls the light day and the 24 hour period also day, means we can't use verses like John 6:16-25 to determine when a day begins, and why the verses I gave, i.e. 'evening to evening' are the verses to use along with:

sure we can...after it becomes evening you with your applied reckoning should call it the next day already...despite it being dark...so according to you they went across at night and later the same day it was discovered there was only one boat...however John writes "the following day" not "the following day light" or "light of day" or "same day during light"

Nehemiah 13:19
So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

"This is the proof that the Sabbath starts at sunset and not day break. As soon as it turns dark, the gates are shut. It did not say "as soon as day break shut the gate."

Now does that make sense to you?

"The text in question, verse 19, immediately follows and reveals Nehemiah‟s plan of action: close the gates of Jerusalem the night before so that none of these merchants could come in during the night, set up stalls, and sell on the Sabbath. Notice that this verse is not saying that the Sabbath started at sunset. It refers to the period of darkness (which falls after sunset) as coming before the Sabbath. As the darkness was beginning to gather (so clearly this was after sunset), Nehemiah commanded them to shut the gates."

http://www.sabbathherald.com/when-does-a-day-begin-end/

The darkness before the Sabbath is not Sabbath...

If you wish to reckon the darkness before the Sabbath as Sabbath it would then NOT be written this way...

Nehemiah 13:19? “So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath.” (NKJV)

It should be written "as it began to be Sabbath" which would then be understood as getting dark...if you wish to insist on Jewish tradition


But it is not...

There was Light it was called day...was called good...then it finally became evening...then morning--the first day

You cant have an evening without light...diminishing light...

 

[chair]

just one copy cut paste on my part...

for your case or mine?

No real evidence for your case. Just academic speculation.

yeah...ok

no...I meant Purim...a holiday jews gave themselves...Rome uses it to excuse her own establishment of worship on Sunday and other feast days...

The Book of Esther isn't in your Bible?

 

[clefty]

No real evidence for your case. Just academic speculation.

oh...ok

The Book of Esther isn't in your Bible?

sure it is...and it is where I read how the jews gave themselves a holiday...

 

[chair]

oh...ok


sure it is...and it is where I read how the jews gave themselves a holiday...

Yes. And we have given ourselves other holidays as well. So what?
Were we supposed to freeze-dry our religion 3,000 years ago?

 

[clefty]

Yes. And we have given ourselves other holidays as well. So what?
Were we supposed to freeze-dry our religion 3,000 years ago?

Lol...freeze dried religion?...hardly...hard to tell what you will or won't do...

even He had to make corrections

but you rejected Him too...and His followers...even sought to deceive others of what they taught...

Back to scripture:

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut "

If it was already evening it would not be the same day...but the next...if you insist the evening changes days

 

[chair]

Lol...freeze dried religion?...hardly...hard to tell what you will or won't do...

even He had to make corrections

but you rejected Him too...and His followers...even sought to deceive others of what they taught...

Back to scripture:

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut "

If it was already evening it would not be the same day...but the next...if you insist the evening changes days

Depends what exactly is meant by "evening". Before sunset or after sunset.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

oh...ok

ummm yes..."evening, dark, tonight" are distinct from the following day because morning begins the new day...see genesis

ummm...no...the light is called day which was the first day the same day it was created but numbered at its conclusion...the dawn of the following day

The numbering occurs after completion...just like your birthday...the year lived first then numbered...just like an odometer...the distance travelled first then counted...

day came after there was light created after there was darkness not called night but darkness...darkness after light was created was called night

right...day comes after light was created...then it became evening and then night and then morning--the first day or day one

oh you do know the verse...its sequence...apply it please

sure we can...after it becomes evening you with your applied reckoning should call it the next day already...despite it being dark...so according to you they went across at night and later the same day it was discovered there was only one boat...however John writes "the following day" not "the following day light" or "light of day" or "same day during light"



"The text in question, verse 19, immediately follows and reveals Nehemiah‟s plan of action: close the gates of Jerusalem the night before so that none of these merchants could come in during the night, set up stalls, and sell on the Sabbath. Notice that this verse is not saying that the Sabbath started at sunset. It refers to the period of darkness (which falls after sunset) as coming before the Sabbath. As the darkness was beginning to gather (so clearly this was after sunset), Nehemiah commanded them to shut the gates."

http://www.sabbathherald.com/when-does-a-day-begin-end/

The darkness before the Sabbath is not Sabbath...

If you wish to reckon the darkness before the Sabbath as Sabbath it would then NOT be written this way...

Nehemiah 13:19? “So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath.” (NKJV)

It should be written "as it began to be Sabbath" which would then be understood as getting dark...if you wish to insist on Jewish tradition


But it is not...

There was Light it was called day...was called good...then it finally became evening...then morning--the first day

You cant have an evening without light...diminishing light...

Genesis 1:5
God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

It's clear that God calls the 12 hours of daylight 'Day' and He also calls the 24 hour period of night and day, 'Day' as well.

Or do you disagree? If you do please explain.

 

[clefty]

Depends what exactly is meant by "evening". Before sunset or after sunset.

Your problem not mine...

 

[clefty]

Genesis 1:5
God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

It's clear that God calls the 12 hours of daylight 'Day' and He also calls the 24 hour period of night and day, 'Day' as well.

Or do you disagree? If you do please explain.

I agree...please note the order of what was named first...

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

So there was light...He saw the light...and that it was good...THEN He divided the light from darkness into their respective times frames...THEN He called the light day...After this act He named what was once called darkness He now called night...a specific span of time the SECOND specific span of time...the one that followed the first...then that light diminished into evening and evening into night and night then became morning and now finally the day is completed...NOW it is numbered...

 

[chair]

Your problem not mine...

Actually not my problem. We know what our calendar is. What our day and night are. When holidays start and end. Irrespective of whether you or anybody else thinks we got it "wrong" somehow.

The Christians here seem to have some issue with this. I am not sure why.

I will point out that Jesus did not live in Biblical (i.e. OT) times. He lived in early Rabbinic times. So his day and night and Sabbaths were most likely whatever Jews in his time did.

 

[clefty]

Actually not my problem. We know what our calendar is. What our day and night are. When holidays start and end. Irrespective of whether you or anybody else thinks we got it "wrong" somehow.

The Christians here seem to have some issue with this. I am not sure why.

I will point out that Jesus did not live in Biblical (i.e. OT) times. He lived in early Rabbinic times. So his day and night and Sabbaths were most likely whatever Jews in his time did.

Yes typical of your kind...traditions of man > Law of Yah...no problem...but it still doesnt define when evening begins...noon?...9th hour?...sun hitting horizon...sinking below it?...two stars visible? So many options...book of Job has evening lasting all night...

But relax it's not really a problem for Christians here or elsewhere until it is confirmed He did not resurrect on the the day they think He did...Sunday for which they made themselves a holiday...like Jews and their Purim...also not of Yah...and full of drunks...lol

I am with Peter who said its better to obey Yah and His way rather than man and his traditions...

 

[clefty]

Actually not my problem. We know what our calendar is. What our day and night are. When holidays start and end. Irrespective of whether you or anybody else thinks we got it "wrong" somehow.

The Christians here seem to have some issue with this. I am not sure why.

I will point out that Jesus did not live in Biblical (i.e. OT) times. He lived in early Rabbinic times. So his day and night and Sabbaths were most likely whatever Jews in his time did.

There can be no doubt that in pre-exilic times the Israelites reckoned the day from morning to morning. The day began with the dawn and closed with the end of the night following it, i.e, with the last moment before the dawn of the next morning. The very description of the extent of the day in the biblical account of creation as given in Gen 1:5 presupposes such a system of reckoning the day, for it says: "And it was evening and it was morning, one day." This passage was misunderstood by the Talmud, though significantly enough when the Tosefta cites in proof Esth. 4.I6 where the order occurs, but does not cite the passage in Genesis or was reinterpreted to suit the later practice of a different system. But it was correctly interpreted by R. Samuel b. Meir (1100-1160) when he remarked "It does not say that it was night time and it was day time which made one day; but it says 'it was evening,' which means that the period of the day time came to an end and the light disappeared. And when it says 'it was morning,' it means that the period of the night time came to an end and the morning dawned. Then one whole day was completed."

There are many more indications in the Pentateuch pointing directly or indirectly to the mode of reckoning the day from morning to morning. To mention but a few such indications; when prescribing that a Thanksgiving offering must be consumed on the very same day on which the sacrifice is slaughtered, the Law states "on the same day it shall be eaten, ye shall leave none of it till the morning" [52] which directly indicates that the day comes to an end on the next morning.[53] And when in special case, as e, g., in regard to the Day of Atonement, where the Law wishes to make the fasting on it stricter than on any other fast day so as to include also the preceding night, the Law specifically states that it should begin with part of the preceding day and therefore expressly says: "And ye shall afflict your souls in the ninth day of the month at even, from even to even shall ye keep your Sabbath." [54 ] This indirectly but unmistakably points to a mode of reckoning the day from morning to morning.[55] In post-exilic times, however, probably not later than the beginning of the Greek period, [56] a change in the system of reckoning the day was made, and the day was reckoned as extending from the preceding to the following evening. As might be expected, such a radical innovation was not immediately generally accepted It took some time before it entirely supplanted the older system. In certain spheres of the population the older system continued to be in use, either exclusively or side by side with the newer system. Thus in the Temple service the older system continued all through the time of the existence of the second Temple, and there the day was reckoned from morning to morning, or as the Talmud [57] puts it [Hebrew quoted] "In sacrificial matters the night follows rather than precedes the day." [58] " In some circles [59] or among some Jewish sects [60] the older system continued and the Sabbath was observed from Saturday morning to Sunday morning For those groups, as for the people of the time prior to the introduction of the new system, the night following the Sabbath and not the night preceding it formed part of the Sabbath, and the morning of Saturday -- not Friday evening -- marked the entrance of the Sabbath.· But the majority of the people, following the teachings of the Halakah. [61] reckoned the day from evening to evening and the entrance of the Sabbath for them came after the sunset of Friday or on Friday evening.

http://yahuahreigns.com/Time When Does the Day Begin.html

But feel free to ignore your own...

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I agree...please note the order of what was named first...

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

So there was light...He saw the light...and that it was good...THEN He divided the light from darkness into their respective times frames...THEN He called the light day...After this act He named what was once called darkness He now called night...a specific span of time the SECOND specific span of time...the one that followed the first...then that light diminished into evening and evening into night and night then became morning and now finally the day is completed...NOW it is numbered...

You agree that the word day can apply to the 12 hour daylight part, or the 24 hour whole day. Yet you can't see why verses like John 6:16-25 can't be used to prove then a day begins or ends. Read it again carefully and apply both meanings of the word 'day' in verse 22:

John 6:16-25
16 Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, 17 got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them. 18 Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

22 On the following DAY, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone—23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks—24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?”

If it is a 24 hour meaning then you would be right but if it is a 12 meaning of the word 'day' then you can't tell either way. Therefore we can't be sure from these verses.

 

[chair]

Yes typical of your kind...traditions of man > Law of Yah...no problem...but it still doesnt define when evening begins...noon?...9th hour?...sun hitting horizon...sinking below it?...two stars visible? So many options...book of Job has evening lasting all night...

But relax it's not really a problem for Christians here or elsewhere until it is confirmed He did not resurrect on the the day they think He did...Sunday for which they made themselves a holiday...like Jews and their Purim...also not of Yah...and full of drunks...lol

I am with Peter who said its better to obey Yah and His way rather than man and his traditions...

There is a minor problem with your thinking.
Tell me: How do you know the Bible is true?

 

[clefty]

You agree that the word day can apply to the 12 hour daylight part, or the 24 hour whole day. Yet you can't see why verses like John 6:16-25 can't be used to prove then a day begins or ends. Read it again carefully and apply both meanings of the word 'day' in verse 22:

John 6:16-25
16 Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, 17 got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them. 18 Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

22 On the following DAY, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone—23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks—24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?”

If it is a 24 hour meaning then you would be right but if it is a 12 meaning of the word 'day' then you can't tell either way. Therefore we can't be sure from these verses.

So either I am right or you cant tell either way by this verse...is why we have other verses and historical evidences to consider...

Maybe this helps?

http://biblehub.com/greek/1887.htm

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So either I am right or you cant tell either way by this verse...is why we have other verses and historical evidences to consider...

Maybe this helps?

http://biblehub.com/greek/1887.htm

It doesn't sound like you've really accepted even this straight forward piece of logic. And yes there are other verses that actually prove it, which I have shown you many times but you don't accept them either.

And: [1887] epaurion: 'on the next day' does not help either.

But these verses are the proof:

Exodus 12:6
And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.

Leviticus 23:32
It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."

Numbers 9:5
And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month between the two evenings in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the sons of Israel.

Nehemiah 13:19
So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

 

[clefty]

It doesn't sound like you've really accepted even this straight forward piece of logic. And yes there are other verses that actually prove it, which I have shown you many times but you don't accept them either.

And: [1887] epaurion: 'on the next day' does not help either.

it means next day...NOT the same day at the daylight portion of it...

But these verses are the proof:

Exodus 12:6
And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.

keep it...is referring to the lamb yes? Killing it between the evenings on the 14th...so during the day light portion of the 14th...towards evening...now when is that offering actually eaten...also the 14th before sundown or now after sunset on the 15th? Also does the Wrath pass over on the SAME day the offering lamb is killed and eaten or the next day the 15th at midnight?

Leviticus 23:32
It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."

so is it the evening that begins the 9th?

Numbers 9:5
And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month between the two evenings in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the sons of Israel.

so they kept the passover between the evenings of the 14th? And again, the Wrath passed over at midnight the next day?

Nehemiah 13:19
So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

so the darkness before the Sabbath was NOT already Sabbath...or it would be written "as it began to be dark for the Sabbath" or "on the Sabbath" or just "as it came to be Sabbath" since everyone knows that's when it got dark...

But as it is written there is a darkness before the Sabbath that is not the Sabbath but before it...

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

it means next day...NOT the same day at the daylight portion of it...

keep it...is referring to the lamb yes? Killing it between the evenings on the 14th...so during the day light portion of the 14th...towards evening...now when is that offering actually eaten...also the 14th before sundown or now after sunset on the 15th? Also does the Wrath pass over on the SAME day the offering lamb is killed and eaten or the next day the 15th at midnight?

so is it the evening that begins the 9th?

so they kept the passover between the evenings of the 14th? And again, the Wrath passed over at midnight the next day?

so the darkness before the Sabbath was NOT already Sabbath...or it would be written "as it began to be dark for the Sabbath" or "on the Sabbath" or just "as it came to be Sabbath" since everyone knows that's when it got dark...

But as it is written there is a darkness before the Sabbath that is not the Sabbath but before it...

So many contradictions.

 

[clefty]

So many contradictions.

Again your problem...was the passing over of the wrath at midnight on the 14th or 15th?



And there was evening (because the light faded into night) and there was morning (because the night grew into light)--the day now numbered as finally completed

Each subsequent act of creation was done during the daylight portion...that daylight portion then faded into evening into night and counted as complete at the next morning's light...the light of the next day

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Again your problem is your lack of reasoning skills.