When does one become part of the body of Christ?

[glorydaz]

Believing is exercising faith. If believing is not an act, what is it?

It's a fact, not an act.

 

[oatmeal]

"Receiving" & "meeting the requirements" are human works, hence your explanation results to salvation by works.

KJV Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

KJV 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

So what if they are human works?

Is salvation a gift of God's grace or not?

Who earned, who paid for the gift of salvation? Who paid the price, who fulfilled the requirements legally to make it a free gift?

a. the recipient

b. God in Christ


If someone gives you a gift, do you hold out your hands to receive it or do continue let you arms hang down by your side and refuse to receive it?

Does receiving a birthday gift to you by holding out your hands turn it into wages for works done?

God gave you a brain, do you use it? or not use it because you don't want to do any works at all?

Do you use your brain or does that disqualify you from salvation because using your brain takes work?

 

[Samie]

It's a fact, not an act.

"believe" is an action word which one may or may not do, hence an act. An act becomes a fact AFTER it is done.

 

[Samie]

So what if they are human works?

Human works such as "Receiving" & "meeting the requirements" do not result in making one part of the body of Christ - the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24), in much the same way that an electric bulb does not shine for it to be plugged in to the source of power. The electric bulb shines because it is ALREADY plugged in to the source of power in much the same way that people can do the acts of "Receiving" & "meeting the requirements" because they are ALREADY plugged in to Christ - the only source of power.

 

[ttruscott]

Scripture tells us that Christ is the ONLY Source of power (1 Cor 1:24), hence UNLESS one is plugged in to Him, he is powerless; in Christ's own words he can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

But in your post you said that "to become part of the body of Christ, one must have chosen by their free will to put their faith in YHWH". So while yet not plugged in to Him, where would one get the power to choose and to put their faith in YHWH so they can become part of the body of Christ?

The power needed in I Cor. 1:26 is the power to fight our sinfulness and indeed is found only in Christ's gospel, GOD's foolishness, not worldly wisdom. It speaks to sinners, not to those who who were created ingenuously innocent with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to chose for GOD or against HIM. No one who is enslaved to sin can choose for Christ without His help and GOD's calling. No one NOT enslaved to sin needs the power of Christ to make his decisions...are we not called to freedom from the law: Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love and rather can start to learn (Heb 12:5-11), learn to serve humbly in love by our unenslaved free will again.

The holy elect angels are in Christ without ever sinning...if GOD made them that way rather than them choosing themselves to be that way and HE did NOT make us that way, then is HE not arbitrary between our persons? If not arbitrary, then what is the reason we were made a little lower than the angels yet will be like them in our resurrection?

 

[ttruscott]

Are you saying, that man is converted by doing nothing?

If not, then at what point in man's life will God, Who wants all men saved (1 Tim 2:3, 4), initiate the conversion process?

I believe that the Earth itself and the whole human experience fulfills the parable of the elect but sinful seed needing to live with the reprobate good seed (reprobate means counterfeit, eh? A tare...) to be brought to redemption the most perfect manner possible from the day of conception to the day of death in Christ. IOW, the earth was created for the sole purpose of the redemption and sanctification of HIS Sinful elect and redemption starts at the moment of conception.

The fact that GOD wants all men saved (1 Tim 2:3, 4) is to my mind proof that HE did not create us in sin or the sin of Adam as it is our first sin that sets our relationship with HIM as under the election of salvation or as condemned already, Jn 3:18 or that too seems arbitrary. It suggests to me that HE wanted (the reason HE created us) everyone created in HIS image to choose to accept HIS deity and join HIM in marriage which assumes HE created us able to do so subject only to our free will acceptance of HIM and HIS plan for us. No one created in sin is able to do so...

 

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Bright Raven
Faith and belief are not works.

Believing is exercising faith. If believing is not an act, what is it?

Faith if Heb 11:1 has it right is an unproven hope... and the choice is to put your faith in your own understanding or in Christ. The theology of saved from sin by GOD alone by HIM giving us faith (Calvinism) or by ourselves in our choosing faith (Arminianism) is for sinners on earth only so is moot - the elect angels have faith but no one gave it to them and the demons chained by chains of darkness cannot choose for themselves so...???

 

[oatmeal]

Human works such as "Receiving" & "meeting the requirements" do not result in making one part of the body of Christ - the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24), in much the same way that an electric bulb does not shine for it to be plugged in to the source of power. The electric bulb shines because it is ALREADY plugged in to the source of power in much the same way that people can do the acts of "Receiving" & "meeting the requirements" because they are ALREADY plugged in to Christ - the only source of power.

You have a point, now that you have explained yourself

However, without the receiver's participation in the process of receiving, the gift is not received, no matter how valuable it is.

However, to receive salvation by confessing and believing is how Romans 10:9-10 instructs us to get "plugged in"

Without receiving the gift of grace, salvation, there is no plugging in.

The only way to receive anything from God is by believing, ie, meeting the requirements.

That is why God gave us the requirements in Romans 10:9-10

We were dead in trespasses and sins and without God and without hope until we received the gracious gift of salvation

Now that we are alive in Christ do we have potential to make a life worthy of God unto all pleasing.

 

[Samie]

You have a point, now that you have explained yourself

However, without the receiver's participation in the process of receiving, the gift is not received, no matter how valuable it is.

However, to receive salvation by confessing and believing is how Romans 10:9-10 instructs us to get "plugged in"

Without receiving the gift of grace, salvation, there is no plugging in.

The only way to receive anything from God is by believing, ie, meeting the requirements.

That is why God gave us the requirements in Romans 10:9-10

We were dead in trespasses and sins and without God and without hope until we received the gracious gift of salvation

Now that we are alive in Christ do we have potential to make a life worthy of God unto all pleasing.

Unlike a gift which unless received could not be ours, salvation is a state or condition one is in. Just like independence. When a US citizen reaches the age of 18, by law he becomes independent, whether he knows about it or not. So with salvation. And salvation has 3 tenses.

In the past tense of salvation where people were made part of the body of Christ, there is no human participation involved. As revealed on the cross, God through Christ fashioned us all - humanity - into the body of His Son, thereby creating a new man: Christ the Head, humanity the Body, with the intent of reconciling us to Himself (see Eph 2:14-16). When the Head died, the Body likewise died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9), and by that death we all were reconciled to God (Rom 5:10), and all our sins forgiven (Col 2:13, 14). This is where we were PLUGGED IN to Christ. We are born ALREADY plugged in to Him.

When the Head resurrected, the Body was likewise made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2:4-6), born again into a new hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:7), ready to face and fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim 6:12; 2 Tim 4:7) in the present tense of salvation which occurs throughout our lifetime where we are to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21) through Him Who is our Strength (Phil 4:13) and the ONLY source of power (1 Cor 1:24). If we commit any sin, Jesus, Who was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25), continually justifies us by NOT imputing against us the sins we now commit (2 Cor 5:18, 19), those sins having been forgiven, as manifested on the cross (Eph 1:7; Col 1:18; 2:13, 14; Rev 1:5). In fact, God remembers our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:16, 17).

In the future tense of salvation, where people will be rewarded according to what each has done (Matt 24:13; 16:27; Rev 22:12; Rom 2:5-11), only overcomers of evil with good (Rom 12:21) will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals because Christ did not blot out their names from the book of life (Rev 3:5, 21; 21:27). All others will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Both Calvinists and Arminians believe that people are born in sin, hence, born NOT part of the body of Christ.

I believe people are born ALREADY part of the body of Christ, by God's grace.

But if NOT, as Calvinists and Arminians teach, then what must one do to become part of the body of Christ? If one has to do SOMETHING first - like believe, accept, repent - before he can become part of the body of Christ, then that's salvation by works.

Both Calvinists and Arminians have a lot of explaining to do. Please just dwell on the issue. No ad hominems, please.

People do not do something before they first hear or see something from God to do something about.

All people need to be reconciled to God sometime after their own birth.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

LA

 

[glorydaz]

"believe" is an action word which one may or may not do, hence an act. An act becomes a fact AFTER it is done.

In a sentence, it's an action word, but for it to be considered an act attributed to the person it must be an act of the will. For instance, we bleed when we're cut...not willfully, but because we were cut. We believe when we have been persuaded by what we see or hear.

 

[Samie]

In a sentence, it's an action word, but for it to be considered an act attributed to the person it must be an act of the will. For instance, we bleed when we're cut...not willfully, but because we were cut. We believe when we have been persuaded by what we see or hear.

People can "see" or "hear" because they're PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of power - Christ (1 Cor 1:24) - to do anything like "seeing" or "hearing". PLUGGED IN first BEFORE one can "see" or "hear".

In your order of events, a person first "sees" or "hears" and then he "believes". The acts of "seeing" or "hearing" PRECEDES "believing". Therefore PLUGGED IN to Christ first, then he "sees" or "hears" and then he believes. He "believes" NOT to be PLUGGED IN: he ALREADY was, even PRIOR to his "seeing" or "believing".

 

[glorydaz]

People can "see" or "hear" because they're PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of power - Christ (1 Cor 1:24) - to do anything like "seeing" or "hearing". PLUGGED IN first BEFORE one can "see" or "hear".

The Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation.

]In your order of events, a person first "sees" or "hears" and then he "believes". The acts of "seeing" or "hearing" PRECEDES "believing". Therefore PLUGGED IN to Christ first, then he "sees" or "hears" and then he believes. He "believes" NOT to be PLUGGED IN: he ALREADY was, even PRIOR to his "seeing" or "believing".

Nope, NOT MY ORDER OF EVENTS, but the Bible's. You need to get off this "plugged in" idea when it comes to salvation.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

It's why Paul tells us the the GOSPEL is the Power of God unto salvation. How can they hear without at preacher? That proves you error right there.

We BELIEVE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS. What comes first?

 

[oatmeal]

The Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation.



Nope, NOT MY ORDER OF EVENTS, but the Bible's. You need to get off this "plugged in" idea when it comes to salvation.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

It's why Paul tells us the the GOSPEL is the Power of God unto salvation. How can they hear without at preacher? That proves you error right there.

We BELIEVE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS. What comes first?

Well said!

 

[Samie]

The Gospel is the POWER of God unto salvation.

Yes, because Christ is the EMBODIMENT of the Gospel, and Christ is the Power of God (1 Cor 1:24).

Nope, NOT MY ORDER OF EVENTS, but the Bible's. You need to get off this "plugged in" idea when it comes to salvation.

Sorry, can't get off from truth.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

Plugged in to Christ - the ONLY source of power, first before one can have the power to do the act of "Calling". Plug that electric bulb first to the source of power, then it will shine. It does NOT shine first so it could be plugged in.

It's why Paul tells us the the GOSPEL is the Power of God unto salvation. How can they hear without at preacher?

How can they hear UNLESS they first have the power to hear?

That proves you error right there.

Nope.

We BELIEVE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS. What comes first?

You have already said that "see" & "hear" first, then one "believes". But BEFORE one can "see" or "hear", he must first be PLUGGED IN to the ONLY source of power - Christ. Without Christ first and foremost, all human acts are NOTHING. John 15:5

And in numerals NOTHING is ZERO (0). Without Christ the ONLY (1) source of Power, "see", "hear" & "believe" are all "0","0", & "0". But with Christ FIRST & FOREMOST, they become "1000".

 

[oatmeal]

Yes, because Christ is the EMBODIMENT of the Gospel, and Christ is the Power of God (1 Cor 1:24).

Sorry, can't get off from truth.

Plugged in to Christ - the ONLY source of power, first before one can have the power to do the act of "Calling". Plug that electric bulb first to the source of power, then it will shine. It does NOT shine first so it could be plugged in.

How can they hear UNLESS they first have the power to hear?

Nope.

You have already said that "see" & "hear" first, then one "believes". But BEFORE one can "see" or "hear", he must first be PLUGGED IN to the ONLY source of power - Christ. Without Christ first and foremost, all human acts are NOTHING. John 15:5

And in numerals NOTHING is ZERO (0). Without Christ the ONLY (1) source of Power, "see", "hear" & "believe" are all "0","0", & "0". But with Christ FIRST & FOREMOST, they become "1000".

So are you saying that you can believe without the gospel? without the actual words on the page?

If it all about Christ, please tell me where you learned that? for that matter why bother with scripture whatsoever?

 

[oatmeal]

Yes, because Christ is the EMBODIMENT of the Gospel, and Christ is the Power of God (1 Cor 1:24).

Sorry, can't get off from truth.

Plugged in to Christ - the ONLY source of power, first before one can have the power to do the act of "Calling". Plug that electric bulb first to the source of power, then it will shine. It does NOT shine first so it could be plugged in.

How can they hear UNLESS they first have the power to hear?

Nope.

You have already said that "see" & "hear" first, then one "believes". But BEFORE one can "see" or "hear", he must first be PLUGGED IN to the ONLY source of power - Christ. Without Christ first and foremost, all human acts are NOTHING. John 15:5

And in numerals NOTHING is ZERO (0). Without Christ the ONLY (1) source of Power, "see", "hear" & "believe" are all "0","0", & "0". But with Christ FIRST & FOREMOST, they become "1000".

So are you saying that you can believe without the gospel? without the actual words on the page?

If it all about Christ, please tell me where you learned that? for that matter why bother with scripture whatsoever?

 

[God's Truth]

Both Calvinists and Arminians believe that people are born in sin, hence, born NOT part of the body of Christ.

I believe people are born ALREADY part of the body of Christ, by God's grace.

But if NOT, as Calvinists and Arminians teach, then what must one do to become part of the body of Christ? If one has to do SOMETHING first - like believe, accept, repent - before he can become part of the body of Christ, then that's salvation by works.

Both Calvinists and Arminians have a lot of explaining to do. Please just dwell on the issue. No ad hominems, please.

Samie, you are finally seeing the false teachings that have spread like gangrene, it is the doctrine of faith alone.

Peter says people misunderstand Paul when he speaks not of by works. Paul is telling us not of by purification/ceremonial works. James too must have heard of the no obey teachings spreading around, and Peter calls the people confused about it 'foolish'.

See 2 Peter 3:16, 17; and James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, and 24.

 

[God's Truth]

Salvation by works is not the same thing as works after salvation.

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels and then He will reward each according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)

It is the same from confused people.

 

[God's Truth]

Agree.

Do you likewise believe as I do that one is part of the body of Christ first before he can do any work?

That is impossible.