What is the Gospel?

glorydaz

Well-known member
I may be an outsider in terms of my unbelief be this constitutes a pretty clear assault on the very essence of the Gospel,

Well, you're just ignorant of what the Gospel is. We are saved by Grace through FAITH. Without faith there is no salvation.


I'd say. You have no good news for mankind GD.

Oh? It's not Good News that salvation is a Gift for those who believe? Really? Sounds good to me. Guess I'll just keep preaching it.

I'm sure not going to go tell mankind they are all saved, like you and your Evil twin would like me to. It's simply not the case.

And it not only sounds like Good News, it is THE GOOD NEWS that Paul preached. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

The verses you and Evil posited have been asked and answered. Pay attention.

The saviour of all people GD. All people.

Not all people are saved, Sonnet....NOT ALL ARE SAVED. That makes a little glitch in your claim. :chuckle:
 

Tambora

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All were provided for - those that looked lived. Any suggestion that Numbers 21:8-9 was not really for all and therefore not a genuine offer has, of course, serious implications.
Was not the serpent on the pole for healing of those bitten?
Were every single one of them bitten, or just some?
 

Sonnet

New member
Well, you're just ignorant of what the Gospel is. We are saved by Grace through FAITH. Without faith there is no salvation.

Oh? It's not Good News that salvation is a Gift for those who believe? Really? Sounds good to me. Guess I'll just keep preaching it.

I'm sure not going to go tell mankind they are all saved, like you and your Evil twin would like me to. It's simply not the case.

And it not only sounds like Good News, it is THE GOOD NEWS that Paul preached. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

The verses you and Evil posited have been asked and answered. Pay attention.

Not all people are saved, Sonnet....NOT ALL ARE SAVED. That makes a little glitch in your claim. :chuckle:

You keep conflating Jesus's sacrifice with the condition of being actually saved. The model Jesus chose Himself was that of provision. Eternal life was made possible for all...which is the good news.

How are you even able to preach the resurrection without clarifying that Jesus did not resurrect for all men?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You tend not to respond to my responses AMR - including this one.

No, but, like me, I'm betting he's sick of your inability to understand what you're told. And, like me, I have no doubt he sees through your duplicity right to your motive. You and the Evil one are a sort of comedy team. You're the straight man and Evil is the dunce.:luigi: :mario:

You really should take in on the road.
 

Sonnet

New member
Was not the serpent on the pole for healing of those bitten?
Were every single one of them bitten, or just some?

Jesus chose His analogy and limited the scope of it to bitten Israelites. We must not consider anyone other than those Jesus considered for his model. That is how analogies work.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Paul is not contradicting Our Lord. Paul's writings are superintended by the Holy Spirit, so notions that he did not have the full truth or is unable to understand what Jesus said are foolish.

Please pay careful attention to in Adam, and in Christ in these passages.

In 1 Cor. 15:22 the Adam and Christ are named, and it is made explicit that they bring others into the death and resurrection that they themselves experienced: For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. Paul has moved from metaphor to typology, clarifying the point made in 1 Cor 15:20.

To be in Adam is to be part of the group which finds in Adam its representative and leader, which finds its identity and destiny in Adam and what he has brought about for his people.

To be in Christ is to be part of the group which finds in Christ its representative and leader, which finds its identity and destiny in Christ and what he has brought about for his people.

All humans who have not yet found redemption through faith in Christ remain in Adam. Those who have entered into the promise of new life, the life of Christ, are in Christ, and will find that their initial experience of the newness of life was but a foretaste of the ultimate restoration of life that awaits them in the resurrection.

As in Romans 5:12–21, Paul in 1 Cor 15:22 stresses the differences between Adam and Christ. The consequences of the resurrection of Christ (life for all) correspond antithetically to the consequences of Adam’s sin (death for all). The former has broken the power of the latter. However, Paul is not teaching universalism (see 1 Cor. 1:18); the unqualified “all” of 1 Cor 15:22 who will be made alive is clarified by 1 Cor 15:23 with the phrase “those who belong to him.” Hence, all in Adam die; all in Christ live.

Our Lord's statement at Matthew 26:28 stands and Paul is in complete agreement with it anywhere the writings of Paul appear in Scripture.

AMR

Hi AMR,
I had no intention to intimate that Paul was contradicting our Lord. My question was whether we are interpreting our Lord's words correctly.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that "in Christ" is where we find redemption, and those that are not "in Christ" are not/will not be redeemed. But if Christ is the resurrection and the life, would you say that the only source of resurrection is Christ? Can we say that only by His blood are we guaranteed life after death? Surely there is no other source of life after death, is there?

Can He be the savior of all men, especially of believers, without actually saving the non-believers from something?
 

Sonnet

New member
No, but, like me, I'm betting he's sick of your inability to understand what you're told. And, like me, I have no doubt he sees through your duplicity right to your motive. You and the Evil one are a sort of comedy team. You're the straight man and Evil is the dunce.:luigi: :mario:

You really should take in on the road.

Ad hominem.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You keep conflating Jesus's sacrifice with the condition of being actually saved. The model Jesus chose Himself was that of provision. Eternal life was made possible for all...which is the good news.

How are you even able to preach the resurrection without clarifying that Jesus did not resurrect for all men?

I love how you two clowns keep slipping up. "No, but...." "Made possible for all".

And, you are continually twisting what I've said.


I tell people if they believe, they too can have eternal life. This is simple stuff, boys. Try to concentrate just a bit.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I prefer to read it as intended. It's obvious God does NOT save all people. That should be a clue. And "especially those who believe" also means something, and that should be a clue.

The Living God is the only Saviour men have. "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Saviour". That's a fact. We cannot be saved by anyone else....not through our own works, or, in your case, through the excuse of stupidity. GOD is the only Saviour.
Indeed.

The key to unlocking 1 Tim 4:10 verse is to recognize that the word "Savior" has a soteriological (that is, relating to salvation) and a non-soteriological meaning in Scripture. The twofold nature of the word, Savior, is clear from the phrase "especially those...", for we know universalism cannot be the proper view. Thus the word, Savior must also have a meaning other than what we normally associate the word to mean.

For example, in the Old Testament, the term often meant "to deliver — (verbal form) or deliverer (nominal form)" — both with reference to men and God (see Judg. 3:9; II Kings 13:5; Neh. 9:27; Ps. 25:5;106:21).

Moreover, in the New Testament, reference is made to the Old Testament where God delivered Israel from the oppression of Pharaoh for He had been the Savior of all, but especially those who believed. With "those who believed", and with them alone, He was "well pleased" (I Cor. 10:5). Observe that all left Egypt; yet not all entered Canaan.

In both the Old and New Testaments the term "Savior" is often used to speak of God's providential preservation or deliverance which extends to all men without exception. (Ps. 36:6; 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 17:25, 28.)

God also causes His gospel of salvation to be earnestly proclaimed to all men without distinction; that is, to men from every race and nation (Matt. 28:19). Truly the kindness of God extends to all. But even the circle of those to whom the message of salvation is proclaimed is wider than those who receive it by a true saving faith.

So, a paraphrase of 4:10 would be something like this:

We have our hope set on the living God, and in this hope we shall not be disappointed, for not only is He a kind God, hence the Savior (i.e., preserver or deliverer in a providential, non-soteriological sense) of all men, showering blessings upon them, but He is, in a very special sense, the Savior (in a soteriological sense) of those who by faith embrace Him and His promise, for to them He imparts salvation, everlasting life in all its fullness.

The living god is the providential preserver of all men; but he is especially so for believers, for he not only physically and temporally delivers them, but he also spiritually and eternally saves them.

AMR
 

Sonnet

New member
I love how you two clowns keep slipping up. "No, but...." "Made possible for all".

And, you are continually twisting what I've said.


I tell people if they believe, they too can have eternal life. This is simple stuff, boys. Try to concentrate just a bit.

Those for whom Christ did not die and did not rise from the dead for can believe in Jesus for salvation then? Or are you guilty of playing fast and loose with people's lives?
 
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Tambora

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Jesus chose His analogy and limited the scope of it to bitten Israelites. We must not consider anyone other than those Jesus considered for his model. That is how analogies work.
Then the serpent on the pole (that represented Jesus) was not for all of the congregation, but only those bitten.
How does that line up with "Jesus died for all"?
 

Sonnet

New member
Then the serpent on the pole (that represented Jesus) was not for all of the congregation, but only those bitten.
How does that line up with "Jesus died for all"?

Jesus didn't extent his analogy beyond those that were bitten by snakes so why are you? He chose such Israelites because they are a microcosm of fallen humanity, I'd say.

If we follow your logic then it would seem Jesus didn't die for Moses.
 

Tambora

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Jesus didn't extent his analogy beyond those that were bitten by snakes so why are you? He chose such Israelites because they are a microcosm of fallen humanity, I'd say.

If we follow your logic then it would seem Jesus didn't die for Moses.
The scope of the serpent on the pole was for the healing of those that were bitten.
Moses was not bitten.
Moses got no healing from the serpent on the pole because Moses was not bitten to begin with to need healing.
The serpent on the pole was not for him.

That is not lining up with "Jesus died for all".
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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You tend not to respond to my responses AMR - including this one.
I answered your question:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111421&viewfull=1#post5111421

You then wave off my answer:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111424&viewfull=1#post5111424

Then you wonder why we are held to account:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111424&viewfull=1#post5111424

Of course, asking while ignoring all I have said earlier.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111410&viewfull=1#post5111410

Just going in circles because you are stuck on one verse you wrongly try to use as a locus classicus. Naturally once that verse falls, you are left with nothing else, so your resistance is understandable, yet lamentable. :AMR:

AMR
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Those for whom Christ did not die and did not rise from the dead for can believe in Jesus for salvation then? Or are you guilty of playing fast and loose with people's lives?

The preaching of the Cross is foolishness to unbelievers. If and when they believe, they will have access to that blood He shed on the Cross, and will be saved. I realize you're slow to hear, but this is getting boring.

For you to suggest I'm playing "fast and loose with people's lives" is probably the most ridiculous statement of yours to date. You must be running out of material. :chuckle:
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [1Co 15:22 KJV]
Does "all" mean "all"? Does only one "all" mean "all", and the other "all" means "not all"?

The meaning here is as plain as plain could be.

All means all.
And both alls mean the same thing - all.

All humans are related to Adam and will physically die.
All Christians will be made alive (resurrected).

The limiter is "in Adam" or "in Christ", not in the "all".
Why is this even a question?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I answered your question:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111421&viewfull=1#post5111421

You then wave off my answer:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111424&viewfull=1#post5111424

Then you wonder why we are held to account:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111424&viewfull=1#post5111424

Of course, asking while ignoring all I have said earlier.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126873-What-is-the-Gospel&p=5111410&viewfull=1#post5111410

Just going in circles because you are stuck on one verse you wrongly try to use as a locus classicus. Naturally once that verse falls, you are left with nothing else, so your resistance is understandable, yet lamentable. :AMR:

AMR

Yeah, and look at the kind of statement he's making now....a bit desperate, I'm thinking.

Those for whom Christ did not die and did not rise from the dead for can believe in Jesus for salvation then? Or are you guilty of playing fast and loose with people's lives?
 

Sonnet

New member
The scope of the serpent on the pole was for the healing of those that were bitten.
Moses was not bitten.
Moses got no healing from the serpent on the pole because Moses was not bitten to begin with to need healing.
The serpent on the pole was not for him.

That is not lining up with "Jesus died for all".

Why are you shoe-horning into the analogy those whom Jesus did not consider? Jesus set the limits Himself: bitten Israelites - which is a microcosm of fallen humanity.

To consider anyone else is to misuse Jesus's analogy.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Write out 1 Timothy 4:10 ... word for word and tell me how Jesus didn’t die for all, though not all desire His DBR?

Mat 10:22KJV
Were they hated by all men without exception?
What about themselves? Did they hate themselves?
What about those who were not yet born? Were they hated by them?

Mar 1:37KJV
Did all men without exception seek for Him?
What about those who had not heard of Him? Did they seek Him?
What about those who were not yet born? Did all of them seek Him?

Phil 4:5KJV
Does this mean all men without exception?
Should we write to those we don't know, informing them of this?
How do we transmit this information to the dead?

Perhaps the meaning of "all men" is not as fixed as you are suggesting.
Perhaps it means all kinds of men.
Free men, slaves, men we don't like, not just those we do like, men of all ages, faiths, philosophies, worldviews, Jews and Gentiles, Kings and servants, carpenters and plumbers...etc.
 
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