What is the express image of God?

freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Not quite...........

Not quite...........

Tambora said:
Yep.

Cyprian, who lived c.200-258 wrote:
The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one'; and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ‘and these three are one.’

- Cyprian, De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate 6​
Click to expand...

Hi Tambora,

Notice this does not prove the existence of the Comma Johanneum in Cyprian's life-time, for it is not even a 'direct' quote of the passage. Notice it is not quoting 'the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. If Cyprian knew of the Comma Johanneum, why didn't he quote it exactly? - he didn't. What is probable is that he is referring to 1 John 5:6-8 before the comma johanneum was inserted and using the 'agreement' between the Spirit, water and blood to refer to the Trinity,...the only allegory being that these three 'agree as one'. Since there is no direct quote of the comma johanneum, this is the most reasonable view to take. Dr. Daniel B. Wallace addresses this specifically in a short article below -

The Comma Johanneum and Cyprian

My previous posts still hold. Historical facts and scholarship are against this 'later' interpolation. There's nothing wrong with it being an superimposed allusion to the 'trinity',...but it reflects a later imposed phraseology added later as a Trinitarian allegory. It doesn't really serve as much of a Trinitarian 'proof-text' except as an added theological construct, since many other passages are more traditionally used to support the Trinity.

Lets finally note that 1 John 5:6-8 without the comma johanneum flows smoothly and in context as speaking of Jesus Christ, the truth of his incarnation, the Spirit bearing witness that he came by water and blood. The Spirit, water and blood bearing witness that Jesus Christ came as the Son of God (and Son of Man),...these agree as ONE. - nothing about an orthodox conception of the Trinity (added later).
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Tambora said:
Yep.

Cyprian, who lived c.200-258 wrote:
The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one'; and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ‘and these three are one.’

- Cyprian, De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate 6​
Click to expand...

Have you seen these authentic writings of Cyprian?

And if these writings of his have been so meticulously preserved why is that the supposed manuscripts he was reading from weren't?

Oh, I forgot, the Catholics say it so it must be true.

:noway:
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
freelight said:
Hi Tambora,

Notice this does not prove the existence of the Comma Jahanneum in Cyprian's life-time, for it is not even a 'direct' quote of the passage. Notice it is not quoting 'the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. If Cyprian knew of the Comma Jahanneum, why didn't he quote it exactly? - he didn't. What is probable is that he is referring to 1 John 5:6-8 before the comma jahanneum was inserted and using the 'agreement' between the Spirit, water and blood to refer to the Trinity,...the only allegory being that these three 'agree as one'. Since there is no direct quote of the comma jahanneum, this is the most reasonable view to take. Dr. Daniel B. Wallace addresses this specifically in a short article below -

The Comma Johanneum and Cyprian

My previous posts still hold. Historical facts and scholarship are against this 'later' interpolation. There's nothing wrong with it being an superimposed allusion to the 'trinity',...but it reflects a later imposed phraseology added later as a Trinitarian allegory. It doesn't really serve as much of a Trinitarian 'proof-text' except as an added theological construct, since many other passages are more traditionally used to support the Trinity.

Lets finally note that 1 John 5:6-8 without the comma jahanneum flows smoothly and in context as speaking of Jesus Christ, the truth of his incarnation, the Spirit bearing witness that he came by water and blood. The Spirit, water and blood bearing witness that Jesus Christ came as the Son of God (and Son of Man),...these agree as ONE. - nothing about an orthodox conception of the Trinity (added later).
Click to expand...

Absolutely. :thumb:
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
lifeisgood said:
Some love to go outside of God's preserved word (in any language) and study man-made lexicons, commentaries, etc. instead of His preserved word (in any language).

Some waste so much time in what man says they reject what God says. Like Satan, through the serpent in the Garden of Eden, they question, "Yea, hath God said....?" rejecting what God has said; inventing their own word, which brings absolutely nothing good in the end.
Click to expand...

The 'facts' on the 'Comma Johanneum' have been shared in my previous posts. A later interpolation that is not found in the earliest texts and has much evidence against its authenticity, does give grounds for it being the 'word of God', much less as something written by the original author.
 
Tambora

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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freelight said:
The 'facts' on the 'Comma Johanneum' have been shared in my previous posts. A later interpolation that is not found in the earliest texts and has much evidence against its authenticity, does give grounds for it being the 'word of God', much less as something written by the original author.
Click to expand...
Your fallacy is that the earliest to survive = authentic.
The fact is that we don't have the earliest. But we can have witness of those that did see the earliest.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Tambora said:
Your fallacy is that the earliest to survive = authentic.
The fact is that we don't have the earliest. But we can have witness of those that did see the earliest.
Click to expand...

I guess you missed my post? :chuckle:

If we can have that witness then what happened to those supposed manuscripts these witnesses are witnessing to?
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Tambora said:
Why not?
Cyprian clearly says that what he said was "written".
Click to expand...

Again, it is NOT a direct/complete quote of the 'Comma Johanneum', and does not prove it existed in any text or that Cyprian was quoting from it, because it is NOT a direct quote. It only shows that Cyprian was probably putting a Trinitarian spin on the passage about the Spirit, water and blood 'agreeing as one'.

The 'Comma Johanneum' is a later interpolation. The facts are the facts. If you want to believe otherwise, you are free to, but I think being 'intellectually honest' with the facts is far more commendable than a blind faith ignoring historical data and valid textual criticism.

Also as Brother Kel, shares in one of the last videos I posted,...this verse does not prove a Trinity anyways,...its just an allegorical formula inserted into the passage to correlate the 3 elements (subjects) as 'agreeing as one'.

Apparently we've veered from the subject here, being 'the express image of God', but needed to be honest with the 'Comma Johanneum'.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
freelight said:
Again, it is NOT a direct/complete quote of the 'Comma Johanneum', and does not prove it existed in any text or that Cyprian was quoting from it, because it is NOT a direct quote. It only shows that Cyprian was probably putting a Trinitarian spin on the passage about the Spirit, water and blood 'agreeing as one'.

The 'Comma Johanneum' is a later interpolation. The facts are the facts. If you want to believe otherwise, you are free to, but I think being 'intellectually honest' with the facts is far more commendable than a blind faith ignoring historical data and valid textual criticism.

Also as Brother Kel, shares in one of the last videos I posted,...this verse does not prove a Trinity anyways,...its just an allegorical formula inserted into the passage to correlate the 3 elements (subjects) as 'agreeing as one'.

Apparently we've veered from the subject here, being 'the express image of God', but needed to be honest with the 'Comma Johanneum'.
Click to expand...

We couldn't ignore Patrick Jane could we?

Nor his cosigner, Tambora. :)
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
1Mind1Spirit said:
I guess you missed my post? :chuckle:

If we can have that witness then what happened to those supposed manuscripts these witnesses are witnessing to?
Click to expand...

have you ever misplaced something or lost something in your 60 years ?

Try some wars and a couple hundred years. Where are Jesus' garments and cups. Where are all of Jesus' possessions, what few there were ? What happened to some manuscripts ?
Where's the ark and the Holy Grail ? It is written but where are the things that were witnessed ? pipe down 1 Head :chuckle:
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
1Mind1Spirit said:
We couldn't ignore Patrick Jane could we?
Click to expand...

After this statement by him -

no need to waste time on videos or outside speculation, it's in the Original King James Version Bible I have, so that makes it fact/God's Word.
Click to expand...

This is one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read. Nothing against pj personally, just the 'statement'.

The KJV bible is NOT perfect. Its a good translation using the limited number of texts it had by the translators, but we have a greater collection of eclectic texts to compare and correlate now (400 years later), so some modern translations are a better more replete representation of the originals. - I like a translation that has all available 'variant readings' in the foot notes or center-column :)
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
patrick jane said:
have you ever misplaced something or lost something in your 60 years ?

Try some wars and a couple hundred years. Where are Jesus' garments and cups. Where are all of Jesus' possessions, what few there were ? What happened to some manuscripts ?
Where's the ark and the Holy Grail ? It is written but where are the things that were witnessed ? pipe down 1 Head :chuckle:
Click to expand...

So the catholics saved this dudes writings but couldn't hang on to his reading materials?

The garments were gambled for by the soldiers.

It is pure myth that somebody went back to the upper room to make sure they had the cup.
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
1Mind1Spirit said:
So the catholics saved this dudes writings but couldn't hang on to his reading materials?

The garments were gambled for by the soldiers.

It is pure myth that somebody went back to the upper room to make sure they had the cup.
Click to expand...

what happened to the ark of the covenant ? Anyway, those catholics have all the original writings stashed in their massive library. They know about things you've never heard of. Aliens too ! Pope Francisco gonna shout !!
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Comma Johanneum......not original......

Comma Johanneum......not original......

patrick jane said:
freelight does what he can to refute and discredit God's Holy Word at every opportunity he gets.
Click to expand...

This isn't true pj. I respect historical facts, records, and valid textual criticism concerning the Bible and all religious writings for that matter (Tao Te Ching, the Vedas/Upanishads, Koran, Avesta, Buddhist text, sutras, etc....as well as more modern day writings). Its called being 'intellectually honest' on all levels of research.

I presented facts and a credible scholar of NT greek studies on the 'comma johanneum, actual articles and information that prove my points. This issue is common knowledge of anyone interested in biblical textual criticism. I recommend researching the facts presented, because they are facts. Until you do, you choose willful prideful ignorance on this particular.

Going to put up a new blog-post on this ;)

James R. White addresses the issue comprehensively below. You can 'research' his work, challenge his information, and prove his facts wrong if you like. He's one of the prominent Christian apologists and defenders of the inspiration/preservation of scripture of our day. You cant defend the 'comma johanneum' in a court of law, let alone debate with skeptics/critics of Christianity, and hold to the authenticity of it, without being demolished (based on the facts).

The Comman Johanneum for Reformed Baptists
 
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