No, it PRECEDES predestination, ALWAYS.
ECT What is Predestination?
- Thread starter nikolai_42
- Start date
No, it PRECEDES predestination, ALWAYS.
Your argument is false because it is based on a flawed interpretation of scripture. Left to our own devices we end up with a fallacious conclusion. Your interpretation cannot possibly be right for this reason alone. You interpret the scripture using flawed human language which is in turn based on flawed and broken human experience. You have offered no reason why anyone should trust your interpretation.
Your argument is false because it is based on a flawed interpretation of scripture. Left to our own devices we end up with a fallacious conclusion. Your interpretation cannot possibly be right for this reason alone. You interpret the scripture using flawed human language which is in turn based on flawed and broken human experience. You have offered no reason why anyone should trust your interpretation.
Whether we are interpreting our experiences or not has nothing to do with the issue in hand. And the point I made has nothing to do with scripture. I don't see what is hard about this:
DR: Sliced bread works with egg mayonnaise
Dialogos: ah but each person's perception of the taste of egg mayonnaise is subjective, therefore sliced bread doesn't work with egg mayonnaise.
And you are talking to me about 'the core problem' of my argument?
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what does that mean?
In practical terms, it works like this: If you’re saved, you’re saved, but if you’re damned, you’re damned, and there is nothing you can do about it either way. Further, there is no way of knowing for sure whether you are saved or damned.
However, you can have some evidence that you might be saved—good works. So, it is a good idea to do lots of good works. The more you do, the more likely you might be saved. If you don’t have any good works, it is good evidence that you are probably damned (but even that is not certain). So what this doctrine gives with one hand (assurance of salvation for the elect), it takes away with the other (the only evidence you have that you are saved is your changed life in terms of good works, and you can’t even be sure that proves anything).
This doctrine is bad news for most of humanity (the damned, the non-elect), and it is hard to call it good news even for the elect (they never know for certain in this life whether they are elect or damned). The real gospel, on the other hand, is good news.
Found at https://www.gci.org/god/predestination
This confirms total depravity
However, you can have some evidence that you might be saved—good works. So, it is a good idea to do lots of good works. The more you do, the more likely you might be saved. If you don’t have any good works, it is good evidence that you are probably damned (but even that is not certain). So what this doctrine gives with one hand (assurance of salvation for the elect), it takes away with the other (the only evidence you have that you are saved is your changed life in terms of good works, and you can’t even be sure that proves anything).
This doctrine is bad news for most of humanity (the damned, the non-elect), and it is hard to call it good news even for the elect (they never know for certain in this life whether they are elect or damned). The real gospel, on the other hand, is good news.
Found at https://www.gci.org/god/predestination
This confirms total depravity
nice going
I gave you a positive rep for that
not because I agree with it
but
because it is understandable
that may be the only statement I have ever heard from a calvinist that I clearly understand
so
why are the others not this clear?
rainee
New member
Chrys I hope you are not single handedly responsible for making Saved One by Grace leave. But then again better you than me if I've been offensive lately and I guess I have been. Sigh.
You say only Puppet made sense on this issue?
Is he the only one who didn't try to incorporate Scriptures? I don't know just asking...
Everybody who answers this has to do it from their faith and understanding of Scriptures.
What I think you want is where the Calvinists are wrong. Perhaps a way to do that is to try to understand Paul's motives for his saying what he did better than they do since theirs is a very old understanding from a relatively younger Christianity, but guess whose understanding is even older than theirs from an even younger Christianity? Tag, you're it my friend.
You say only Puppet made sense on this issue?
Is he the only one who didn't try to incorporate Scriptures? I don't know just asking...
Everybody who answers this has to do it from their faith and understanding of Scriptures.
What I think you want is where the Calvinists are wrong. Perhaps a way to do that is to try to understand Paul's motives for his saying what he did better than they do since theirs is a very old understanding from a relatively younger Christianity, but guess whose understanding is even older than theirs from an even younger Christianity? Tag, you're it my friend.
for some reason I make
Saved One by Grace
very angry
and
that is his problem, not mine
regarding puppet
I am not interested in the scripture you use to justify your beliefs because you can find scripture to justify almost anything
so
what I am interested in
is
what you believe
most here cannot communicate that
so
all we see is bible verse war
Silly how others want me to make up something that makes me worthy. They try to trick me into boasting. The Bible keeps us out of trouble
Those that know don't need to be reminded agian with quotes they already read. Those that don't know wants proof quotes but can't understand them. Making requirements to quote scriptures here is like catholics creating new tradition and it becomes new scriptures.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
That's a general assertion that one might use anywhere at any time to beg the question. "Did God really..." is dangerous territory that is awfully close to "Hath God said...?".
You simply haven't given any good reason why Deuteronomy 32:39 should be taken hyperbolically and instead we should decide that our experience should dictate what is really happening (i.e. "God isn't really doing it...everyone can see it's disease and violence..."). Even in hyperbole (such as with Jer 51:20 in which God calls Israel His "battle axe") what is still literally true is the agency. God used Israel to tear down kingdoms and destroy. While Israel wasn't literally a battle axe, the point is that God used them to do it. Likewise, God uses these agencies of disease and man's wicked inclinations to accomplish His own ends.
Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
Psalm 76:10
now that we got the bible stuff out of the way
do you have a reasonable explanation as to why we are here?
Translate the bible that most can aggree on. I like to say something so simple and be amazed how other make up stuff around it. I dream to post 3 word posts but a sentence seems to work for now. I try to get away from paragraphs but you ask questions that seems to waste our time. We here cause we're fast paced with a little time to read long bickering of others that don't know what there talking about. This post is way too long. You don't seem to really care much about answers to your questions, right?
I agree very much with the above. It is my experience that most scripture quoting is to make the Bible support some particular point of view. If people really respect the Bible, they would not do this. The Bible has to be allowed its own point of view.
you are already avoiding the question
you might as well quote scripture
so
I will give you my reasonable explanation for what we are doing here
we are being tested because we have free will
we are also being changed by our life experience
see how easy that is?
All mankind failed the test. I ignore boring questions.
so you have no reasonable explanation for what we are experiencing?
rainee
New member
Wow you can be kinda hard hearted, Chrys!
Why are we here, you ask?
I think number one we are here to ultimately be more than we currently are in substance and definition. For the reason of being the companions of God.
However we may also be here as God works with an enemy.
All of the first one I mentioned is not new, yes?
All the oldies knew it, I think.
So predestination would simply mean to me what some would call God having His plans and His intention or demand for them to be met.
But the idea He has told us through Paul means something different - because why would we have to know??
So I think He would not have set this up and said what He said if He was not cultivating us to be knowing on a higher level than a Petunia.
But in regards to the enemy well that is more developed now I think than it was in the OT but they were younger children so that seems right to me.
Why are we here, you ask?
I think number one we are here to ultimately be more than we currently are in substance and definition. For the reason of being the companions of God.
However we may also be here as God works with an enemy.
All of the first one I mentioned is not new, yes?
All the oldies knew it, I think.
So predestination would simply mean to me what some would call God having His plans and His intention or demand for them to be met.
But the idea He has told us through Paul means something different - because why would we have to know??
So I think He would not have set this up and said what He said if He was not cultivating us to be knowing on a higher level than a Petunia.
But in regards to the enemy well that is more developed now I think than it was in the OT but they were younger children so that seems right to me.
Not for the questioner at the moment . You must first pray and condition yourself before the ah ha moment.
Why are we here? The man in the insanesylem said it because we are not all there. -- Predestination.
Predestination?
I was sinner then I got saved, when I was saved I became elect, and as being elect, I was predestined to go heaven, therefore those things are predetermined.
Predestination?
I was sinner then I got saved, when I was saved I became elect, and as being elect, I was predestined to go heaven, therefore those things are predetermined.
where the enemy come from?