toldailytopic: The Palestinians vs. the Israelis - war is beginning to brew. Who's si

[Alate_One]

Well, considering where I live (Haifa), and that my son got his call to emergency reserve duty on Friday, it is clear where I stand on this. What I want is for this round to bring us a longer period of quiet- we shouldn't have repeat this every few years.

The problem is, how can you guarantee that? Gaza as currently set up is a place for fomenting people's anger (i.e. creating terrorists). A large isolated population crammed into a very small area surrounded by military.

No amount of bombing, short of wiping everyone out would seem to be a long term solution. Yet, how can you negotiate with people that are intent on killing you?

It would seem to me as an outside observer, that the most geographically obvious solution would be for Gaza to unite with Egypt or Egypt gives them the Sinai. You can't have a two state solution within existing borders without having both states geographically unviable by splitting them in half. It's simply geographically impossible. Why is it everything must come from Israel, a tiny state to start with.

 

[Tambora]

Israel.

 

[Stripe]

The problem is, how can you guarantee that?

Wipe out the opposition and take the place over. :thumb:

 

[rocketman]

Wipe out the opposition and take the place over. :thumb:

Agreed...lain:

 

[ideogenous_mover]

The problem is, how can you guarantee that? Gaza as currently set up is a place for fomenting people's anger (i.e. creating terrorists). A large isolated population crammed into a very small area surrounded by military.

There seems to be geographical and cultural problems related to this situation that I really don't understand at all. I am wary of making such a direct statement about the whole situation itself, for I feel there may be some things I'm really missing here.

No amount of bombing, short of wiping everyone out would seem to be a long term solution. Yet, how can you negotiate with people that are intent on killing you?

I typically don't like that kind of language. Every single one of them cannot be intent on killing Israelis. Surely many of them can think for themselves.

It would seem to me as an outside observer, that the most geographically obvious solution would be for Gaza to unite with Egypt or Egypt gives them the Sinai. You can't have a two state solution within existing borders without having both states geographically unviable by splitting them in half. It's simply geographically impossible. Why is it everything must come from Israel, a tiny state to start with.

I'd really have to see the place to understand what is going on there geographically. Mostly it all looks the same from the tv screen, it just looks like desert and sand mounds, and hot sunsets.

However I assume it is a little cooler next to the sea, with more windows toward commerce or aid if needed. The Sinai desert probably is a more rough place.

 

[ideogenous_mover]

Look, I don't know if war is beginning to brew, but I smell a U.S. tax hike.

Someday I think the middle-east should pay taxes to pay for our problems - just sayin guys.

 

[Ps82]

There is an old saying: Apples do not fall far from the tree. I understand that the radical Muslim terrorists that hate us are the sons and daughters of the older generation. The youngsters coming along are the sons and daughters of the militants.

I also understand that there are people among them who had rather have peace ... and I'd suggest that those that want peace and are not filled with hate do all they can to move away from the troubled areas.

Israel has a right to defend themselves. I'm on their side.

 

[Cracked]

Wipe out the opposition and take the place over. :thumb:

If they do, they must offer full citizenship with all rights and responsibilities to the Palestinian people.

Whatever is done in this conflict, terrorist attacks will continue.

 

[Stripe]

If they do, they must offer full citizenship with all rights and responsibilities to the Palestinian people.

Why must they?

Whatever is done in this conflict, terrorist attacks will continue.

Which means what? Nothing should be done?

 

[Cracked]

Why must they?

What's the alternative if they do go in and take the place over as you suggest? :liberals:

Which means what? Nothing should be done?

No. Perhaps Israel should think outside the box, as it were. Maybe, just maybe, attacking terrorist leaders and occupation is not working very well. :think:

 

[chair]

Wipe out the opposition and take the place over. :thumb:

You are forgetting that we were already there, and already did that. We ruled Gaza for many years, and decided to pull out in hopes that it would be a step towards peace. We were wrong.

To go back to a situation where we rule Gaza again would require a huge military effort, with many casualties, including many civilians, and put us back in a place where we didn't want to be in the first place.

 

[Alate_One]

There seems to be geographical and cultural problems related to this situation that I really don't understand at all. I am wary of making such a direct statement about the whole situation itself, for I feel there may be some things I'm really missing here.

People that have little opportunity due to high population density, and little to no ability to exit are bound to be frustrated. And frustrated people with no outlet and no hope are more likely to turn to violence. That's true of any people.

I typically don't like that kind of language. Every single one of them cannot be intent on killing Israelis. Surely many of them can think for themselves.

I agree, but how do you tell the difference? Plus only a handful of people intent on terrorism makes life very difficult. Fighting asymmetrical war is a mess, as the US and USSR found out in Afghanistan. My real point was you can't (without engaging in literal genocide) kill every terrorist. And in killing terrorists, you tend to kill civilians who weren't against you which then themselves may turn to terror. It's a vicious cycle, yet at the same time you don't want to "give in either". It appears to me to be a very difficult situation and at this point it's been stuck at about the same place for long enough, reconciliation is hard to see.

There was a Poll of Palestinians in general in 2010:

Almost two-thirds of Palestinians (59 percent in the West Bank and 63 percent in Gaza‏) support the two-state solution ‏(Israel and Palestine‏) but eventually hope that one state − Palestine − will prevail, according to a survey by pollster Stanley Greenberg for The Israel Project. Only 23 percent said they believed in Israel’s right to exist as the national homeland of the Jews. However, 50 percent supported recognizing Israel as a Jewish state in order to reach the two-state solution.

I'd really have to see the place to understand what is going on there geographically. Mostly it all looks the same from the tv screen, it just looks like desert and sand mounds, and hot sunsets.

I think it'd take not only seeing it but talking to both sides to fully understand. I've seen a documentary or two from both positions, and done a bit of study on my own but that's about it. But you can also just get out google maps and zoom in and take a look, see where the farms and population centers are.

However I assume it is a little cooler next to the sea, with more windows toward commerce or aid if needed. The Sinai desert probably is a more rough place.

Indeed, but there's lots of coastline. I don't know the amount of natural resources in the area, though.

With 1.7 million people crammed into an area 25 miles long and about 5 miles wide with a population growth rate of over 3% per year (7th highest growth rate in the world) and essentially unable to leave, you have a powder keg. The cork needs to be pulled on that bottle before it blows even more explosively.

 

[Stripe]

What's the alternative if they do go in and take the place over as you suggest? :liberals:

Alternative?

I don't know. :idunno:

No. Perhaps Israel should think outside the box, as it were. Maybe, just maybe, attacking terrorist leaders and occupation is not working very well. :think:

So ... They should ignore the rockets being fired at them? Move? I say think inside the box. :thumb:

You are forgetting that we were already there, and already did that. We ruled Gaza for many years, and decided to pull out in hopes that it would be a step towards peace. We were wrong.

Don't confuse ignorance for forgetfulness. :chuckle:

To go back to a situation where we rule Gaza again would require a huge military effort, with many casualties, including many civilians, and put us back in a place where we didn't want to be in the first place.

Yeah.

You think something else has a chance of working?

 

[chair]

People that have little opportunity due to high population density, and little to no ability to exit are bound to be frustrated. And frustrated people with no outlet and no hope are more likely to turn to violence. That's true of any people.

This is an extreme simplification of a very complex problem. A list of countries and territories by population density shows that economic success does not correlate directly with population density. If you want an extreme example, Hong Kong and Singapore have higher population densities than the Gaza strip.

 

[chair]

You think something else has a chance of working?

Many Israelis are resigned to the idea that we will have to do this every few years.

On the other hand, we fought a supposedly unsuccessful war against the Hezbollah in Lebanon 6 years ago- and that border has been quiet since.

 

[ideogenous_mover]

People that have little opportunity due to high population density, and little to no ability to exit are bound to be frustrated. And frustrated people with no outlet and no hope are more likely to turn to violence. That's true of any people.

I don't know what to think of this situation.

I agree, but how do you tell the difference? Plus only a handful of people intent on terrorism makes life very difficult. Fighting asymmetrical war is a mess, as the US and USSR found out in Afghanistan. My real point was you can't (without engaging in literal genocide) kill every terrorist. And in killing terrorists, you tend to kill civilians who weren't against you which then themselves may turn to terror. It's a vicious cycle, yet at the same time you don't want to "give in either". It appears to me to be a very difficult situation and at this point it's been stuck at about the same place for long enough, reconciliation is hard to see.

well, I wonder if the USSR was as careful in the 80's. I don't know, but I bet they were less discriminating about who they engaged, and they still lost.

Maybe Israel should use their mossad type secret agents instead. Less inaccurate and less money for bombs. I don't know.

There was a Poll of Palestinians in general in 2010:

Almost two-thirds of Palestinians (59 percent in the West Bank and 63 percent in Gaza‏) support the two-state solution ‏(Israel and Palestine‏) but eventually hope that one state − Palestine − will prevail, according to a survey by pollster Stanley Greenberg for The Israel Project. Only 23 percent said they believed in Israel’s right to exist as the national homeland of the Jews. However, 50 percent supported recognizing Israel as a Jewish state in order to reach the two-state solution.

Is Palestine really what they call it? I thought that was like an ancient Roman word. I don't know, will there ever be peace? those are tumultuous numbers

I think it'd take not only seeing it but talking to both sides to fully understand. I've seen a documentary or two from both positions, and done a bit of study on my own but that's about it. But you can also just get out google maps and zoom in and take a look, see where the farms and population centers are.

yeah I guess

Indeed, but there's lots of coastline. I don't know the amount of natural resources in the area, though.

fish, oil, some trees probably

With 1.7 million people crammed into an area 25 miles long and about 5 miles wide with a population growth rate of over 3% per year (7th highest growth rate in the world) and essentially unable to leave, you have a powder keg. The cork needs to be pulled on that bottle before it blows even more explosively.

maybe what they all need is some birth control instead of war.

 

[Alate_One]

This is an extreme simplification of a very complex problem. A list of countries and territories by population density shows that economic success does not correlate directly with population density. If you want an extreme example, Hong Kong and Singapore have higher population densities than the Gaza strip.

I do agree it's an oversimplification, but I'll have to do some of that since we are writing forum posts rather than books. But I didn't say it was purely population density and growth, but the growth and density is what makes the place a time bomb.

However, I think the comparison using purely population density fails because your example populations aren't stuck in those locations in the same way people in Gaza are. Those locations also have economic opportunities that Gaza does not. I'm sure there's a long drawn out argument as to why that is, and the answer is probably very complex.

It is my opinion, from my limited studies that the fault of the whole situation at least partly lies on the surrounding Arab countries that refused and from what I have read continue to refuse to assimilate "Palestinians", who did not have a national identity separate from other nations in the region until relatively recently. They let the situation fester partly as a distraction from their own internal problems.

What I don't understand is, why is it, if all of these nations are so concerned about the plight of the Palestinians, they don't unilaterally offer to assimilate them? Egypt is now under control of the Muslim brotherhood who are said to be kin to Hamas. Why not take in people from Gaza that want to leave permanently?

Perhaps they fear terrorists coming along with the refugees and creating a problem "at home" rather than just with Israel?

I'm just curious on these points.

 

[Alate_One]

well, I wonder if the USSR was as careful in the 80's. I don't know, but I bet they were less discriminating about who they engaged, and they still lost.

That's the problem, I don't think it matters how discriminating you are. You can't actually kill enough terrorists to do anything but create a temporary lul in the violence. It's a terrible situation.

Maybe Israel should use their mossad type secret agents instead. Less inaccurate and less money for bombs. I don't know.

They've done some of that, that I remember hearing about. Again I think it's the problem is you can't actually kill every terrorist. Though I think in this situation, if you could get rid of all of the rockets and stop them from coming in . . . I'd imagine that's extremely difficult though, or the Israelis would have already done it.

Is Palestine really what they call it? I thought that was like an ancient Roman word. I don't know, will there ever be peace? those are tumultuous numbers

Apparently it's an old name for the area. I guess I'm an optimist to think there will be peace eventually, but it will take some kind of big change. You'd think the Arab spring might be something along those lines.

maybe what they all need is some birth control instead of war.

There was a story not long ago saying their hospitals don't have enough space for women giving birth so that women were being sent home early.

 

[ideogenous_mover]

That's the problem, I don't think it matters how discriminating you are. You can't actually kill enough terrorists to do anything but create a temporary lul in the violence. It's a terrible situation.

You know, I bet the Jews wouldn't have this problem if they just went ahead and converted a bunch of the surrounding peoples for a set period of time.

They've done some of that, that I remember hearing about. Again I think it's the problem is you can't actually kill every terrorist. Though I think in this situation, if you could get rid of all of the rockets and stop them from coming in . . . I'd imagine that's extremely difficult though, or the Israelis would have already done it.

I dunno how you'd do that they could probably just build their own rockets anyway.

Apparently it's an old name for the area. I guess I'm an optimist to think there will be peace eventually, but it will take some kind of big change. You'd think the Arab spring might be something along those lines.

the middle-eastern style 60's?

There was a story not long ago saying their hospitals don't have enough space for women giving birth so that women were being sent home early.

That's a big problem. As a left winger I have no problem with recommending them lots of birth control.

 

[Alate_One]

You know, I bet the Jews wouldn't have this problem if they just went ahead and converted a bunch of the surrounding peoples for a set period of time.

You mean, turned them Jewish? Somehow I don't think they'd be very happy with that. :chuckle:

I dunno how you'd do that they could probably just build their own rockets anyway.

They do, but homemade rockets don't hit Tel-Aviv.

That's a big problem. As a left winger I have no problem with recommending them lots of birth control.

Neither do I, but one wonders why their growth rate is so high. Countries that have a lot of poverty, paradoxically tend to have very high population growth rates. But there may be a lot more factors involved.