toldailytopic: Is getting a divorce immoral?

ThePresbyteers

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John Piper’s position: remarriage after divorce is not determined by:
The guilt or innocence of either spouse,
Nor by whether either spouse is a believer or not,

I got this here and PIper's position is posted below:

Here is John Piper’s position:
“Conclusions and Applications
In the New Testament the question about remarriage after divorce is not determined by:
The guilt or innocence of either spouse,
Nor by whether either spouse is a believer or not,
Nor by whether the divorce happened before or after either spouse’s conversion,
Nor by the ease or difficulty of living as a single parent for the rest of life on earth,
Nor by whether there is adultery or desertion involved,
Nor by the on-going reality of the hardness of the human heart,
Nor by the cultural permissiveness of the surrounding society.
Rather it is determined by the fact that:
Marriage is a “one-flesh” relationship of divine establishment and extraordinary significance in the eyes of God (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5; Mark 10:8),
Only God, not man, can end this one-flesh relationship (Matthew 19:6; Mark 10:9—this is why remarriage is called adultery by Jesus: he assumes that the first marriage is still binding, Matthew 5:32; Luke 16:18; Mark 10:11),
God ends the one-flesh relationship of marriage only through the death of one of the spouses (Romans 7:1-3; 1 Corinthians 7:39),
The grace and power of God are promised and sufficient to enable a trusting, divorced Christian to be single all this earthly life if necessary (Matthew 19:10-12,26; 1 Corinthians 10:13),
Temporal frustrations and disadvantages are much to be preferred over the disobedience of remarriage, and will yield deep and lasting joy both in this life and the life to come (Matthew 5:29-30).
Those who are already remarried:
Should acknowledge that the choice to remarry and the act of entering a second marriage was sin, and confess it as such and seek forgiveness
Should not attempt to return to the first partner after entering a second union (see 8.2 above)
Should not separate and live as single people thinking that this would result in less sin because all their sexual relations are acts of adultery. The Bible does not give prescriptions for this particular case, but it does treat second marriages as having significant standing in God’s eyes. That is, there were promises made and there has been a union formed. It should not have been formed, but it was. It is not to be taken lightly. Promises are to be kept, and the union is to be sanctified to God. While not the ideal state, staying in a second marriage is God’s will for a couple and their ongoing relations should not be looked on as adulterous.”
Link: John Piper’s position on Divorce and Remarriage
 
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CabinetMaker

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Depends on the situation. Your myopic view of mathew 19 probably hurts alot of people. We all know its not ideal but to call it adultry for all cases is disingenuous at best. It is imparitive that we look at the audiance that Jesus was talking to and their beliefs on divorce and remarriage. I agree it is unfortunate that the bible does not list out verbatim all the possible scenarios where divorce and remarraige is valid but we can use common sense. I do not feel as if I commited adultry when my ex wife decided to no longer full fill her marital duties so I divorced her and remarried, had she not continually sinned against me I would not have divorced.
I never said "all". I was careful to allow for those situations where divorce and remarriage are acceptable. For instance, my first wife cheated on me and we divorced. I remarried and we will celebrate 25 years together this year.

All I am saying is that a Christian needs to very very careful consider and pray over their situation before they get remarried.
 

CabinetMaker

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Nope, that's just what the RCC and Anglican Church want you to believe.

Be a man.. a true scholar and go do some research on the Greek from which the KJV was mistranslated.
No, it is what Jesus said:


Matthew 19

New International Version (NIV)

Divorce

19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”




One must carefully consider whether getting remarried is the acceptable thing to do given their particular situation.


Of course, you are welcome to get out the Greek and show us that Jesus didn't actually say this...
 

Rusha

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Im saying its not immoral for a husband to divorce a wife over defrauding, however, most churches would crucify a man over that and he would have no legal protections.

For a Christian, divorce is permissible for adultery ...

You did her a favor when you divorced her.

Yep

Do you think wives are supposed to provide sex on tap or something?

:AMR:

Apparently so.

Things that make you go hmmmmm ............. :hammer:
 

highlife

New member
You did her a favor when you divorced her.

I also did myself a favor, it was better than hiring an escort or cheating in general. Do you have a hard time accepting the reality of situations? Some chrisitans do a good job accepting reality and others not so much, the ones that dont usually leave a wake of broken friendships with their self righous statements, badgering and condesention.
 

highlife

New member
No, it is what Jesus said:


Matthew 19

New International Version (NIV)

Divorce

19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”




One must carefully consider whether getting remarried is the acceptable thing to do given their particular situation.


Of course, you are welcome to get out the Greek and show us that Jesus didn't actually say this...

Can you show me ANY where else in the bible this is stated? This was ONE argument Jesus was having with the pharisies, no where else is he this harsh even with the woman at the well, so when people get on mathew 19 like a broken record I tune out. Jesus was harsh with the parisies because they were trying to do wickedness, they were different from the woman at the well whom Jesus did not even condmn of sin.
 

CabinetMaker

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Can you show me ANY where else in the bible this is stated? This was ONE argument Jesus was having with the pharisies, no where else is he this harsh even with the woman at the well, so when people get on mathew 19 like a broken record I tune out. Jesus was harsh with the parisies because they were trying to do wickedness, they were different from the woman at the well whom Jesus did not even condmn of sin.
How many times does something need to appear in Scripture before you consider it to be God's truth?
 

Desert Reign

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toldailytopic: Is getting a divorce immoral?


Not as a rule.
Marriage was made for man, not man for marriage.
 

highlife

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How many times does something need to appear in Scripture before you consider it to be God's truth?

There are too many contextual issues surrounding that discussion with the pharisies, the fact that we have NOTHING else in the bible regarding that topic AND the fact that not being able to remarry has such an onerus and negitivly profound effect on ones life means to me personally will need a little more.

On the flip side maybe it means I just dont measure up, however in a divorce situation there are 2 people and all it takes is one behaving poorly to cause the relationship to break down ..... for reasons that are not explicitly stated in the bible, so that creates a bit of a conundrum ..... one where we have to use some common sense or the holy spirit if they intervene.
 

CabinetMaker

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There are too many contextual issues surrounding that discussion with the pharisies, the fact that we have NOTHING else in the bible regarding that topic AND the fact that not being able to remarry has such an onerus and negitivly profound effect on ones life means to me personally will need a little more.

On the flip side maybe it means I just dont measure up, however in a divorce situation there are 2 people and all it takes is one behaving poorly to cause the relationship to break down ..... for reasons that are not explicitly stated in the bible, so that creates a bit of a conundrum ..... one where we have to use some common sense or the holy spirit if they intervene.
Could it be that Jesus's teachings to the Pharisees is clear enough that no other passages were needed?
 

highlife

New member
Could it be that Jesus's teachings to the Pharisees is clear enough that no other passages were needed?

Not in my opinion, I do believe that what Jesus said was Gods original plan but that allowance for divorce was nessicary because of mans sinful nature (or "our" hard hearts, "our" being the one at fault in the divorce). I think the idea of no remarriage other than for extremely narrow cases is both inhumane and cruel to even teach such a thing, if it were sin then Jesus would have condemned the woman at the well to hell because she had been remarried numerous times and was with someone that was "not her husband".

Any time Jesus words are used to try to make my life harder or more onerous for no good reason I will dismiss that individuals inturpretation. Jesus said his yolk was light so that is inconsistant with living a life of celibacy though you may burn with passion because of a one time mistake, it simply does not wash. Its a major control issue that alot of churches employ and it actually turns people away from christ all together. The church has started going off the deep end with the whole labeling of "sex addiction" without having a valid medical basis on a case by case basis, there are too many people in church giving advice that are not qualified to be doing so.

I lean towards freedom in christ.
 

HisServant

New member
No, it is what Jesus said:


Matthew 19

New International Version (NIV)

Divorce

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.




One must carefully consider whether getting remarried is the acceptable thing to do given their particular situation.


Of course, you are welcome to get out the Greek and show us that Jesus didn't actually say this...

No reason to have to say that Jesus meant something else. You included enough of the chapter that shows the statement isn't meant to be taken as a blanket statement or rule of faith.
 

CabinetMaker

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Not in my opinion, I do believe that what Jesus said was Gods original plan but that allowance for divorce was nessicary because of mans sinful nature (or "our" hard hearts, "our" being the one at fault in the divorce). I think the idea of no remarriage other than for extremely narrow cases is both inhumane and cruel to even teach such a thing, if it were sin then Jesus would have condemned the woman at the well to hell because she had been remarried numerous times and was with someone that was "not her husband".

Any time Jesus words are used to try to make my life harder or more onerous for no good reason I will dismiss that individuals inturpretation. Jesus said his yolk was light so that is inconsistant with living a life of celibacy though you may burn with passion because of a one time mistake, it simply does not wash. Its a major control issue that alot of churches employ and it actually turns people away from christ all together. The church has started going off the deep end with the whole labeling of "sex addiction" without having a valid medical basis on a case by case basis, there are too many people in church giving advice that are not qualified to be doing so.

I lean towards freedom in christ.
Well, I have what you think and I have what Jesus said. I will err on the side of what my Savior said instead of on your rather lax moral understandings.

You claim that the marriage issues turns people away from Christ. What you fail to recognize is that a life devoted to following Jesus's teacheings is difficult. Remember that Paul exhorted us all towards a life of celibacy so that we could focus more fully on God. So maybe instead of attempting to justify your lusts for sex and make a "one time mistake" you should instead focus on following Jesus and finding somebody you could actually marry and make a life with instead of just finding somebody you like having sex with.
 

highlife

New member
Well, I have what you think and I have what Jesus said. I will err on the side of what my Savior said instead of on your rather lax moral understandings.

You claim that the marriage issues turns people away from Christ. What you fail to recognize is that a life devoted to following Jesus's teacheings is difficult. Remember that Paul exhorted us all towards a life of celibacy so that we could focus more fully on God. So maybe instead of attempting to justify your lusts for sex and make a "one time mistake" you should instead focus on following Jesus and finding somebody you could actually marry and make a life with instead of just finding somebody you like having sex with.

We are talking about remarriage here NOT casual sex, the catholic chruch does not always sanction a remarraige .... THAT is the problem. Also not everyone was made by God to be celebate, mistake or no mistake with a divorce that labido does not go away just because you say so.
 

CabinetMaker

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We are talking about remarriage here NOT casual sex, the catholic chruch does not always sanction a remarraige .... THAT is the problem. Also not everyone was made by God to be celebate, mistake or no mistake with a divorce that labido does not go away just because you say so.
The sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that, not me. Just how sexually immoral can you be and still inherit the Kingdom?

Does your libido rule you or do you rule your libido?
 

highlife

New member
The sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that, not me. Just how sexually immoral can you be and still inherit the Kingdom?

Does your libido rule you or do you rule your libido?

That depends on what "sexual immorality" means. At the end of the day God will decide who gets in and who does not, none of us are saved by works and certianly none of us are saved until we are formally let into heaven. Until then im not going to be ruled by cult like rules from modern day pharisies, I am going to enjoy life as best I can and do what I can to live by the spirit of Gods word and not the iron fisted legalism that some churchs have invented, if its not "moral enough" then it is what it is as God is sovern and he is going to do what he is going to do.

Right now you are arguing with me over ONE paragraph of text and you also have not addressed his servants post either nor the preface to Jesus statement on this topic, its not as cut and dry as you make it.
 

CabinetMaker

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That depends on what "sexual immorality" means. At the end of the day God will decide who gets in and who does not, none of us are saved by works and certianly none of us are saved until we are formally let into heaven. Until then im not going to be ruled by cult like rules from modern day pharisies, I am going to enjoy life as best I can and do what I can to live by the spirit of Gods word and not the iron fisted legalism that some churchs have invented, if its not "moral enough" then it is what it is as God is sovern and he is going to do what he is going to do.
So you would rather be happy than holy. Hope that works out for you. By the way, you didn't answer whether your libido rules over you or whether you rule over your libido. It is an important question.

highlife said:
Right now you are arguing with me over ONE paragraph of text and you also have not addressed his servants post either nor the preface to Jesus statement on this topic, its not as cut and dry as you make it.
Given who spoke that one paragraph, I am not inclined to interpret it beyond what it says. My point is that a Christian considering getting remarried should consider very carefully their reasons for having gotten divorced BEFORE getting remarried. If you got divorced because you just weren't happy in the marriage anymore then getting remarried is immoral. If you got divorced because your spouse was unfaithful then you are probably okay getting remarried.
 

highlife

New member
So you would rather be happy than holy. Hope that works out for you. By the way, you didn't answer whether your libido rules over you or whether you rule over your libido. It is an important question.

Given who spoke that one paragraph, I am not inclined to interpret it beyond what it says. My point is that a Christian considering getting remarried should consider very carefully their reasons for having gotten divorced BEFORE getting remarried. If you got divorced because you just weren't happy in the marriage anymore then getting remarried is immoral. If you got divorced because your spouse was unfaithful then you are probably okay getting remarried.

Thats your opinion. The issue is when an individual or group starts to force their opinion of morality down others throats. What Jesus said before the infamous remarriage statement and after it is probably MORE important than the statement itself and you still have not addressed his servants post.
 
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