toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[tetelestai]

Hello from lower Manhattan

I am in NYC for a few days moving my daughter to college. I am staying in a hotel just a few blocks from Ground Zero. So, I got up early this morning and figured I go over and check out the logistics of the proposed Mosque.

When I got there I expected to see some protestors, and/or signs, but to my surprise there was nothing except for a Fox News truck crew with cameras set up.

The proposed site of the mosque is two full blocks away from the WTC site. The proposed mosque is to be 15 stories. However, the building right across the street, between the mosque and WTC site is about 18 stories. On the next block between those two buildings is a building that is over 20 stories.

So, if the mosque is built, there is no way anyone would be able to see it from the new WTC #1 Tower and Memorial, and there would be no way to see the former site of the WTC Towers from the mosque.

This isn’t even the biggest story in Manhattan about buildings right now. The city is in an uproar over the new proposed skyscraper to be built two blocks from the Empire State Building. The new skyscraper is to be taller than the Empire State Building. If built it would not only take away the famous skyline of NYC, but would ruin trips to the top of the Empire State Building.

Sincerely,
Tet, TOL’s on the scene reporter

 

[kmoney]

:idea:
You could download a bunch of Korans from Amazon and delete them.

:rotfl:

 

[Nick_A]

One thing this debate over the Ground Zero mosque has proven is the foolishness of all this Interfaith talk. It is foolish because it is just talk. One doesn't need talk of Interfaith bridge building to be a decent human being and follow the Golden Rule.

All this Interfaith talk by the developers of the mosque is meaningless if they cannot feel for the people that have directly suffered the results of 911 and insist on rights.

"One cannot imagine St. Francis of Assisi talking about rights. ..." ~ Simone Weil

That is basically it in a nutshell. Doing the human thing that transcends all of the Interfaith BS, just means being able to put oneself into the position of another. One doesn't need Interfaith BS to do that. They only need to be considerate. Anyone capable of doing so would not want to inflict a political mosque at a place where such a horror occured. No debates over rights will nullify the obvious, that we have an obligation towards those having endured 911 to respect their pain and suffering.

 

[WizardofOz]

Anyone capable of doing so would not want to inflict a political mosque at a place where such a horror occured.

The proposed site of the mosque is two full blocks away from the WTC site. The proposed mosque is to be 15 stories. However, the building right across the street, between the mosque and WTC site is about 18 stories. On the next block between those two buildings is a building that is over 20 stories.

So, if the mosque is built, there is no way anyone would be able to see it from the new WTC #1 Tower and Memorial, and there would be no way to see the former site of the WTC Towers from the mosque.

The potential location of this mosque is not at the place where such a horror occurred.

 

[Town Heretic]

One thing this debate over the Ground Zero mosque has proven is the foolishness of all this Interfaith talk. It is foolish because it is just talk. One doesn't need talk of Interfaith bridge building to be a decent human being and follow the Golden Rule.

You don't need an automobile to go to the store for groceries either, but it helps. And I don't recall anyone but you suggesting the presence of an interfaith dialog results in the creation of decent human beings. Rather, it reflects them.

All this Interfaith talk by the developers of the mosque is meaningless if they cannot feel for the people that have directly suffered the results of 911 and insist on rights.

And you know this how? Because they don't agree with your position? lain:

[

B]"One cannot imagine St. Francis of Assisi talking about rights. ..." ~ Simone Weil [/B]

Another thing he wouldn't probably talk about: refrigerator repair.

...Doing the human thing that transcends all of the Interfaith BS,

Watch your language, Mary. Other than that, it's a very funny comment from someone suggesting they're a proper judge of the sensitivity of others.

just means being able to put oneself into the position of another.

Which you appear unable to do outside of those who might think exactly as you do...so even funnier.

One doesn't need Interfaith BS to do that.

You really should read the rules of a place if you're going to participate. Profanity isn't allowed. Not with *** blanking out letters and not with initials. It's crude and inappropriate.

They only need to be considerate.

If that word was a piece of property your use would have cut its value in half.

Anyone capable of doing so would not want to inflict a political mosque at a place where such a horror occured.

Inflict a mosque? Is that like suffering a cathedral? lain:

No debates over rights will nullify the obvious, that we have an obligation towards those having endured 911 to respect their pain and suffering.

No. You mean we have an obligation to respect SOME of the people's suffering but not all, given Muslims died in that conflagration and falling as well, at the hands of those fanatics.

 

[lightbringer]

No. You mean we have an obligation to respect SOME of the people's suffering but not all, given Muslims died in that conflagration and falling as well, at the hands of those fanatics.

But, but, they weren't real Americans, they were Muslims?

The bigotry of some is so blinding that they can see nothing else!

Nothing....else. :nono:

 

[Nang]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 16th, 2010 11:23 AM

toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

Horrible.

It should never happen, and it will never happen.

Nang

 

[Nick_A]

You don't need an automobile to go to the store for groceries either, but it helps. And I don't recall anyone but you suggesting the presence of an interfaith dialog results in the creation of decent human beings. Rather, it reflects them.


And you know this how? Because they don't agree with your position? lain:

[
Another thing he wouldn't probably talk about: refrigerator repair.


Watch your language, Mary. Other than that, it's a very funny comment from someone suggesting they're a proper judge of the sensitivity of others.


Which you appear unable to do outside of those who might think exactly as you do...so even funnier.


You really should read the rules of a place if you're going to participate. Profanity isn't allowed. Not with *** blanking out letters and not with initials. It's crude and inappropriate.


If that word was a piece of property your use would have cut its value in half.


Inflict a mosque? Is that like suffering a cathedral? lain:


No. You mean we have an obligation to respect SOME of the people's suffering but not all, given Muslims died in that conflagration and falling as well, at the hands of those fanatics.

You really should read the rules of a place if you're going to participate. Profanity isn't allowed. Not with *** blanking out letters and not with initials. It's crude and inappropriate.

BS is not profanity. If someone is BSing you it means that they are lying to you with the intent to manipulate by expressing an attitude aimed at flattering your ego. What do you suggest as a better politically correct alternative that describes what the process of BSing does?

You don't need an automobile to go to the store for groceries either, but it helps. And I don't recall anyone but you suggesting the presence of an interfaith dialog results in the creation of decent human beings. Rather, it reflects them.

Interfaith serves the purpose for people who just got paid and have eaten a good meal to flatter each other's ego. It is like proudly proclaiming: "I'm OK, and You're OK.

However people of different faiths that appreciate sharing on reality begin with the premise: "I'm and Idiot, and You're an Idiot. Then they can honestly share on why it is so hard to practice what we preach.

And you know this how? Because they don't agree with your position?

Yes. If a person is incapable of putting themselves into the position of others, and rather insist on platitudes, then their Interfaith rap is meaningless.

Another thing he wouldn't probably talk about: refrigerator repair.

What is really scary is that you believe you've said something meaningful.You must be skilled in reverse alchemy that changes gold into lead.

Which you appear unable to do outside of those who might think exactly as you do...so even funnier.

You have this fixation that requires you to treat people as groups. 911 is a national tragedy. Don't put labels on the suffering. Why are you so compelled to help police kick women and children bowing their heads off the Supreme Court steps, and inflict political buildings on Ground Zero. Where is your heart?

If that word was a piece of property your use would have cut its value in half.

No. it is you who is inconsiderate. You refuse to recognize the suffering of 911 and rather support the rights of the boulders to build a mosque that is hurtful to the suffering. If I never had to deal with Interfaith and political correctness again it would be too soon.

"Human beings are so made that the ones who do the crushing feel nothing; it is the person crushed who feels what is happening. Unless one has placed oneself on the side of the oppressed, to feel with them, one cannot understand." Simone Weil

Yes dear lady as usual you get to the heart of the matter. They are unwilling to "feel" at this level so instead turn to mindless platitudes and the further loss of their ability to "feel" and to put themselves into the position of another.

Inflict a mosque? Is that like suffering a cathedral?

It could be.

No. You mean we have an obligation to respect SOME of the people's suffering but not all, given Muslims died in that conflagration and falling as well, at the hands of those fanatics.

You prefer to honor them at the expense of those that died from Muslim terrorism. I prefer to keep Ground Zero free of political agendas in support of ALL those who suffered 911. That is our difference. You are too politically correct to understand.

 

[Persephone66]

Like it or not, the 1st Amendment says they can and the government cannot do anything to stop them.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That being said, sure I think it's in poor taste, but any law that would deny it would be going against the constitution.

 

[The Barbarian]

You have this fixation that requires you to treat people as groups.

Like blaming all Muslims for 9/11? That sort of thing?

Yeah, that's despicable.

 

[Nick_A]

Like it or not, the 1st Amendment says they can and the government cannot do anything to stop them.



That being said, sure I think it's in poor taste, but any law that would deny it would be going against the constitution.

The government could stop the mosque through zoning regulations. If they can prevent a Greek Orthodox Church from being rebuilt after 911, they can stop a mosque.

I agree that the basic issue is one of consideration and sensitivity to all those suffering the effects of 911. I cannot believe that people can support building a mosque at Ground Zero when it is just as easy to build it further away. It is an obvious obnoxious political statement.

The trouble is that to do so now would appear as "losing" rather than consideration. They need one hundred million. Why would Muslim countries contribute to a surrender? The issue is politics rather than consideration for others.

The mosque is supposed to be a cultural center. What expresses culture better from their perspective than an obvious attempt to take advantage of the sufferings of others including those who directly suffered 911?

 

[Nick_A]

Like blaming all Muslims for 9/11? That sort of thing?

Yeah, that's despicable.

Maybe your way but not mine.

 

[Town Heretic]

BS is not profanity. If someone is BSing you it means that they are lying to you with the intent to manipulate by expressing an attitude aimed at flattering your ego. What do you suggest as a better politically correct alternative that describes what the process of BSing does?

Something that isn't short hand for an obscenity that is an impolite way of saying a thing isn't credible. And that's what those initials are used as short hand for, your invention notwithstanding.

Interfaith serves the purpose for people who just got paid and have eaten a good meal to flatter each other's ego. It is like proudly proclaiming: "I'm OK, and You're OK.

Sometimes I think you're the best argument against you. lain:

You have this fixation that requires you to treat people as groups.

Nope. That's what people who say things like "Muslims can build a mosque near ground zero when Christians can build churches in Saudia Arabia" are doing. So you have me completely backwards, which is how you appear to like your analysis.

Why are you so compelled to help police kick women and children bowing their heads off the Supreme Court steps,

Wow. Wrong thread AND conclusion. That's a twofer. :thumb:

Where is your heart?

Where it should be. Where is your ability to reason?

...You refuse to recognize the suffering of 911 and rather support the rights of the boulders to build a mosque that is hurtful to the suffering.

You have rocks in your prose AND your thinking...this isn't about failing to recognize grief (though you manage that for the Muslims who perished without blinking).

I omit your ongoing salute to Bartlett's.

You prefer to honor them at the expense of those that died from Muslim terrorism.

Rather, I prefer to honor our founding principles at the expense of no one who understands them.

I prefer to keep Ground Zero free of political agendas in support of ALL those who suffered 911.

Baloney...though it's thinly sliced baloney. So that's a plus for anyone who thinks they have to swallow it.

:e4e:

 

[WizardofOz]

The government could stop the mosque through zoning regulations. If they can prevent a Greek Orthodox Church from being rebuilt after 911, they can stop a mosque.

But, should they? :nono:

 

[Nick_A]

Something that isn't short hand for an obscenity that is an impolite way of saying a thing isn't credible. And that's what those initials are used as short hand for, your invention notwithstanding.

Sometimes I think you're the best argument against you. lain:

Nope. That's what people who say things like "Muslims can build a mosque near ground zero when Christians can build churches in Saudia Arabia" are doing. So you have me completely backwards, which is how you appear to like your analysis.

Wow. Wrong thread AND conclusion. That's a twofer. :thumb:

Where it should be. Where is your ability to reason?

You have rocks in your prose AND your thinking...this isn't about failing to recognize grief (though you manage that for the Muslims who perished without blinking).

I omit your ongoing salute to Bartlett's.

Rather, I prefer to honor our founding principles at the expense of no one who understands them.

Baloney...though it's thinly sliced baloney. So that's a plus for anyone who thinks they have to swallow it.

:e4e:

Luke 10


30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

You remind me of those who can write excellent papers with elaborate reasoning as to why Jesus is wrong. The modern way is politically correct selective compassion. There are a myriad of reasons why we should not be compassionate to others such as those suffering the results of 911.

But even though there are all these logical reasons as to why Jesus is wrong, still, for some reason, there are those who believe him to be right. He suggests a quality of understanding we are yet to become capable of. But why care as long as we can continue to BS our way around it.

 

[Town Heretic]

You remind me of those who can write excellent papers with elaborate reasoning as to why Jesus is wrong.

You remind me of a parrot...except that every now and then I get the feeling a parrot might understand what it's saying. lain:

The modern way is politically correct selective compassion.

I didn't get that handbook. I'll stick with the old, weather beaten "Critical Guide to Actually Thinking". But thanks for the heads up.

There are a myriad of reasons why we should not be compassionate to others such as those suffering the results of 911.

Neither a point I'd make nor defend, though one you illustrate rather selectively by siding with those who would broad brush an entire religion, which is the rather inescapable effect of advancing the notion that a nearby mosque should be the source of offense.

But even though there are all these logical reasons as to why Jesus is wrong, still, for some reason, there are those who believe him to be right.

So you have a God complex as well...noted. oly:

I omit your profanity and the point you fail to make using it. :e4e:

 

[The Barbarian]

I was waiting for this. Union people are beginning to organize in their refusal to build the Ground Zero mosque. This Sharia mosque expressing a complete lack of sensitivity can easily lead to violence.

That excuse is known as the "heckler's veto." It goes like this:

"Yes, you people have rights like anyone else, but if you choose to exercise those rights, it might make someone else violent, so we can't let you do it."

That one had a head-on collision with the Bill of Rights in the sense that a blowfly has a head-on collision with the grill of an 18-wheeler.

 

[chrysostom]

That excuse is known as the "heckler's veto." It goes like this:

"Yes, you people have rights like anyone else, but if you choose to exercise those rights, it might make someone else violent, so we can't let you do it."

That one had a head-on collision with the Bill of Rights in the sense that a blowfly has a head-on collision with the grill of an 18-wheeler.

so if the unions are against it, that is okay
but
republicans are still bigots

 

[The Barbarian]

so if the unions are against it, that is okay

What gives you that idea?

republicans are still bigots

Michael Bloomberg is a republican, um? So not all republicans are guilty of even opposing the structure, much less bigotry.

There are more reasons to oppose this than mere bigotry. Some people have been brainwashed to believe that the people who want to build the structure were involved with 9/11. So ignorance is a problem.

Some people think that Muslims are O.K., but the heckler's veto should apply here, and the sensitivities of "real Americans" are more important than those of the Muslim families who had relatives murdered by terrorists on 9/11.

Some are just bigots, who hate Muslims.

And some are opposed because they believe that it will harm relations between Muslims and other Americans.

I think all of them are wrong, but it is clearly an injustice to label them all as bigots.

None this has anything at all to do with the issue of whether or not they have a right to do it.

 

[The Barbarian]

NickA does what NickA does best:
You have this fixation that requires you to treat people as groups.

Barbarian asks:
Like blaming all Muslims for 9/11? That sort of thing?

Yeah, that's despicable.

Maybe your way but not mine.

True, but you aren't a Christian, so you're free to be a hateful religious fanatic if you want to be.