Right Divider
Body part
Because he believes and spouts anti-Biblical heretical nonsense.Just wondering, why do you call keypurr a heretic?
Because he believes and spouts anti-Biblical heretical nonsense.Just wondering, why do you call keypurr a heretic?
Keypurr,The big deal is YHWH is the only true God.
Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God, he has a God.
Since there is only one God, Christ is not God.
To make him so is to break the commandments of God.
Jesus is the flesh Son of God.
That in itself does not make him God.
The Son of the King is not King.
The logos is the spirit Son of God.
It is God's first creation for ALL things were created through it.
He was given the power and fullness of his God, he is a created form of God, but he is not God.
Jesus Christ taught us that ONLY HIS FATHER IS THE TRUE GOD, why do folks try to change his words? If you believe in Christ you need to listen to him and his Apostles, not the church which not longer represents his teachings.
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What about those who say that we have to believe in the trinity to be saved? That's not in the bible, nor is God the son, nor is there anything saying that we must believe that Jesus is God to be saved either, so are their also heretics? Or is that ok because it's what you're church believes in even though it's nowhere in the bible?Because he believes and spouts anti-Biblical heretical nonsense.
You've got no right to judge who is and who isn't saved, you're not God!Keypurr,
You are not a Christian. You are not saved and you will pay your own sin debt unless you repent. You are an unbeliever. Make no mistake.
I have no idea why anyone would debate Christian doctrine with you at all. At least not without this fact clearly in mind.
I three more questions for you...
Is it wrong (i.e. immoral) to worship anyone other than God?
Who does the titles "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" refer too?
Did God die?
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. There isn't a Trinitarian alive (or dead) that disagrees with Jesus' statement that His Father is the only true God. Not a single one.
As for your p s. Then you'll know that the father is also the God of Christ Jesus then if the Father is the only true God?Keypurr,
You are not a Christian. You are not saved and you will pay your own sin debt unless you repent. You are an unbeliever. Make no mistake.
I have no idea why anyone would debate Christian doctrine with you at all. At least not without this fact clearly in mind.
I three more questions for you...
Is it wrong (i.e. immoral) to worship anyone other than God?
Who does the titles "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" refer too?
Did God die?
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. There isn't a Trinitarian alive (or dead) that disagrees with Jesus' statement that His Father is the only true God. Not a single one.
Your confusion is typical of unbelievers. You should change your mind and believe.What about those who say that we have to believe in the trinity to be saved? That's not in the bible, nor is God the son, nor is there anything saying that we must believe that Jesus is God to be saved either, so are their also heretics? Or is that ok because it's what you're church believes in even though it's nowhere in the bible?
Your post is quite long and will take me a while to read, and I'm a bit busy at the moment.No, because that's not what I said.
Read my post again:
I said that God the Son submits to God the Father, and both are glorified.
Both together, along with the Person the Holy Spirit, are God. All three make up the Triune God. The Son is equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Father is equal to the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and the Son.
- In Matthew 28:19, Jesus says go and baptise in the name (singular), but then gives 3 persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One name, three Persons.
What is the name of God? Moses records in Exodus 3 God telling him to tell the Israelites that the God of their fathers had sent him, and that if they asked what His name was, God told Moses to tell them that "I AM" had sent him. "I AM WHO I AM." Another name we know Him by is YHWH. YHWH, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
- The Bible presents God as being the only true God, but from the beginning of the Bible, it presents Him as a plurality.
- "In the beginning Elohim (plural noun) created (singular verb)"
- "Let us make man in our image and our likeness." This is not just an example of the "royal we," but the origin, describing God as a plurality.
- In Hebrew, there are different words for "one", the one used in Genesis 2:24 ('echad'), "the two shall become one flesh", means one of plurality, and is the same word used in Deuteronomy 6:4, "The LORD our God, the LORD is one ('echad')." The LORD is one (of plurality).
- "Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire . . . from the LORD out of the heavens." (Genesis 19:24)
That's just a few examples from the Old Testament...
But how about the New Testament?
- "Thus saith the LORD" in the Old Testament is replaced with "I say unto you" said by Jesus in the New Testament.
And so many other things that Jesus said that no man nor angel could say and remain righteous. (see kgov.com/deity for a full list)
- The fact that the Father is God is undisputed by even the cults that deny Christ's deity... But what about the Holy Spirit?
- But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” - Acts 5:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts5:3-4&version=NKJV
- Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. - Acts 13:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts13:1-3&version=NKJV
- this passage shows that when one lies to the Holy Spirit, he lies to God.
- you cannot sin against a force, you can sin against a person
- a neuter doesn't speak, but a person does speak
- objects don't get sinned against
- The Holy Spirit is an individual person, the third Person of the Trinity.
- The Holy Spirit cares if we sin against Him
- And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians4:30&version=NKJV
- “ You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. - Acts 7:51 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts7:51&version=NKJV
- Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? - Hebrews 10:29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews10:29&version=NKJV
- But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, - Hebrews 10:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews10:15&version=NKJV
- To be a person requires a will (no, having a will does not mean that an entity is a person)
- The Holy Spirit has a will:
- But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. - 1 Corinthians 12:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:11&version=NKJV
Do I need to go on?
Marhig, "Christ" (or rather, "Christos") is Greek for the Hebrew word for "Messiah". "Messiah" means 'anointed one.' Jesus was not anointed until He was 30 years of age. Again, "Christ" is a title, not a name. You wouldn't call someone anointed one if he wasn't anointed, would you?
Correct. But he was ALSO God.
So Jesus was always 'anointed one'? Or did He take on that title when he was anointed at His baptism by John, by the Holy Spirit?
Here is what Simeon said:
“Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word;For my eyes have seen Your salvationWhich You have prepared before the face of all peoples,A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.” - Luke 2:29-32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke2:29-32&version=NKJV
I don't see "Christ" in there. It's mentioned a few verses earlier, but Simeon did not call Jesus the Christ, but his salvation.
Who was Jesus' father, Marhig? God the Father? or Joseph? What does this passage say?
SpoilerHis parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover.And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the feast.When they had finished the days, as they returned, the Boy Jesus lingered behind in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know it;but supposing Him to have been in the company, they went a day’s journey, and sought Him among their relatives and acquaintances.So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him.Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.So when they saw Him, they were amazed; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? Look, Your father and I have sought You anxiously.”And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?”But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them. - Luke 2:41-50 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke2:41-50&version=NKJV
You are a hypocrite because you judged us for judging Keypurr. A hypocrite is someone who tells people not to do something and then does it himself/herself. Don't be a hypocrite. Judge with righteous judgment.
Prove it.
See above. I never said that the Bible has the word Trinity, nor have I claimed that the phrase "God the Son" is in the Bible. If I remember correctly, I said something along the lines of "it doesn't explicitly state that God is triune, but that the Bible does teach it throughout."
I literally just explained this to you. See above.
No argument there.
No, Marhig, what you say to believe is not what Scripture says to believe.
So you can't answer me? I don't have to believe what you tell me, it's not the truth! Show me where it says in the bible that I must believe that Jesus is God, or in the trinity, or that i have to believe in God the son to be saved?Your confusion is typical of unbelievers. You should change your mind and believe.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jesus was born in the flesh,not the spirit.
The WORD (logos)is a spirit, for God is a spirit and the logos is an express image of God.
Lets go deeper:
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
The logos was Jesus, notice again, IN Jesus, Jesus is not the logos,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1. It says Son (not Jesus)
2. Express Image of a spirit is a spirit.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Are you still burying your head in the sand?
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
firstborn of all CREATURES
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
He is a created form of God.
Jesus was BORN flesh, he did not become flesh.
He did not come down from heaven at his birth. The Son of Man came down from above, right from his God.
The logos spoke through Jesus.
Joh_14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh_17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Questionable
You just love to assume.
It's ALL over the scripture, you just don't want to believe scripture:So you can't answer me? I don't have to believe what you tell me, it's not the truth! Show me where it says in the bible that I must believe that Jesus is God, or in the trinity, or that i have to believe in God the son to be saved?
It doesn't, it's says to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and I do?
Anyway I'm off for now.
You've got no right to judge who is and who isn't saved, you're not God!
As for your p s. Then you'll know that the father is also the God of Christ Jesus then if the Father is the only true God?
:french:
Those that KNOW Him believe different than you.
John 20:26-29 (AKJV/PCE)(20:26) ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. (20:27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. (20:28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (20:29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
Keypurr,
You are not a Christian. You are not saved and you will pay your own sin debt unless you repent. You are an unbeliever. Make no mistake.
I have no idea why anyone would debate Christian doctrine with you at all. At least not without this fact clearly in mind.
I three more questions for you...
Is it wrong (i.e. immoral) to worship anyone other than God?
Who does the titles "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" refer too?
Did God die?
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. There isn't a Trinitarian alive (or dead) that disagrees with Jesus' statement that His Father is the only true God. Not a single one.
Don't make me put you on my ignore list. I won't tolerate stupidity. Did you really miss the point by that much?
It's not a problem at all.Thats your problem then.
Indeed it has and indeed you (and many others) have continued to reject this truth.Discussed many times. Old hat stuff.
The WORD (JESUS) became flesh. There is no contradiction saying the Word is Jesus because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and Jesus was conceived into flesh and dwelt among us.
You still have yet to show where the Bible states that the Word and Jesus are two different persons.
Can Almighty God, a spirit, not become flesh? is that impossible for Him to do?
Keypurr, I explained this now how many times?
The words literally mean "to think like" or "to have the same mindset as" Christ. You apparently didn't read my explanation, or you wouldn't be attempting to make this argument again. IT CANNOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS. It is IMPOSSIBLE to translate it according to your theology.
You keep making this claim, but keep failing to provide scripture that shows them as two separate entities. Jesus is the Logos.
Keypurr, can a father, instead of calling his son by his name, call him "son" when talking about him? Yes?
So then why can't the Father call Jesus "Son" and not use Jesus' name?
"AND THE WORD (a spirit) BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US." So what's your point?
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy3:16&version=NKJV
Keypurr, who was manifested in the flesh?
The Word (B) was made flesh (C).
God (A) was manifested in the flesh (C).
If A=C and B=C, then A=B.
Oh wait, that's exactly what John 1:1 says:
"And God was the Word"
Keypurr, who was preached among the Gentiles?
Jesus (D) was preached among the Gentiles (E) by Paul.
God (A) was preached among the Gentiles (E).
If D=E, and A=E, and A=B=C, then A=B=C=D=E.
Keypurr, who was received up in glory?
Jesus (D) was received up in glory (F).
God (A) was received up in glory (F).
IF D=F, and A=F, and A=B=C=D=E=F
Therefore:
God is the Word.
Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Word.
Now lets add the next part of your post:
Oh look, God is calling the Son "God."
ASSUME,ASSUME, ASSUMETherefore:
The Son is God.
God is the Word.
Jesus is the Word.
Jesus is the Son
Jesus is God.
Jesus is "God the Son."
Next verse:
This verse is better translated as "O God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultation above your companions."
The word, "even," was inserted by translators. It doesn't change the meaning, but it weakens the passage slightly. "O God, your God has anointed" better matches the previous verse.
Here is the Greek:
Even if that isn't correct, you can't possibly imagine that the author of Hebrews forgot what He said in the previous verse, calling the Son "God." No, this verse doesn't change the fact that the author calls the Son "God."
As for the other "God" in this passage, remember when Jesus called the Father His God? (meaning the Father is God.)
The Father is the one speaking in Hebrews 1:5-12. Yet the Father calls His Son "God."
Who is the one who anointed Jesus in Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, John 1:32, and Acts 10:38?
The Holy Spirit.
So, Keypurr, if the Father (who is God) is talking about the Son (who is God) and mentions another who anointed the Son, and calls him God, and we know that the One who did the anointing is the Holy Spirit, then that means that the Holy Spirit is God.
That's the Trinity
Father. Son. Holy Spirit.
God.
"Baptising them in the NAME (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.".
Now, the Bible I use has "LORD" instead of "Lord". In Hebrew, that would indicate that the word YHWH was being used. But this is Greek, not Hebrew, and Greek doesn't have a word for YHWH. However, at this point, even in just these three verses, it's extremely obvious to anyone who isn't a complete idiot that the Father is still speaking to the Son when He says that "In the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thy hands.
Genesis 1:1 states explicitly that God created the heavens and the earth, so by the Father saying to the Son that the Son created those things, the author of Hebrews is saying that God the Father is calling the Son God, and we know there is only one God, and His name is YHWH, I AM WHO I AM. So the translators are justified in using "LORD" instead of "Lord," because they are referring to the SAME PERSON.
Who's kingdom is it? The Son's.
Yet elsewhere in Scripture we see it referred to as "The kingdom of God."
So do you think that perhaps Paul is calling the Son God? Or do you think that Paul is confused?
Who do we have redemption through?
The Son.
Who is our redeemer?
As for our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel. - Isaiah 47:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah47:4&version=NKJV
YHWH is our redeemer.
YHWH is God.
Therefore the Son is God.
"That in all things he might have the preeminence." This verse is saying Christ the Son is preeminent. Not that he was created. Or do you think God was created? IF SO, then He COULD NOT BE God.
Because Jesus is God, the Son of God, and the Word, and because Scripture does not contradict itself because God wrote it, then this verse CANNOT mean, I repeat, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this verse to mean, that Christ was created.
If this verse says the Son created all things, and Genesis 1 says that God created all things, then that means that the Son is God.
Speaking of the Son being God.
Christ is preeminent. The Head of the Body of Christ. He is the beginning (and the end).
He cannot be a "created form of God" because He IS God, as I have just shown you above.
!Keypurr, you're forgetting that a baby is alive for 9 months prior to being born. Life begins at conception.
The Word became flesh, being conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit, and so the God of the universe became a man and dwelt among us.
It's THAT SIMPLE
See my previous paragraphs.
Keypurr, where in the Bible does it call the Father the logos?
John 1:1 calls God the Word, but it's talking about Jesus, the Son. Not the Father.
Yes, the Father sent His Son, Jesus.
John 3:16.
No, Keypurr, not questionable.
Who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and End?
Hint:
SpoilerThe Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” - Revelation 1:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation1:1-8&version=NKJV
That is who is sitting on the throne here:
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” - Revelation 21:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation21:5-8&version=NKJV
And He says:
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. - Revelation 21:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation21:7&version=NKJV
So Jesus, who is sitting on the throne, is claiming to be God. If he were not God, it would be blasphemous. But since He IS God, then He has every right to make that statement.
There are no assumptions being made other than your assumption that I must be wrong because you think you have some profound knowledge that no one else has.
If you don't believe me, I challenge you to READ WHAT IS WRITTEN, both here and in the Bible.
From His BIRTH. John 1:14The WORD was IN Jesus.