Right Divider
Body part
Because he believes and spouts anti-Biblical heretical nonsense.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Keypurr,
You are not a Christian. You are not saved and you will pay your own sin debt unless you repent. You are an unbeliever. Make no mistake.
I have no idea why anyone would debate Christian doctrine with you at all. At least not without this fact clearly in mind.
I three more questions for you...
Is it wrong (i.e. immoral) to worship anyone other than God?
Who does the titles "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" refer too?
Did God die?
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. There isn't a Trinitarian alive (or dead) that disagrees with Jesus' statement that His Father is the only true God. Not a single one.
marhig
Well-known member
What about those who say that we have to believe in the trinity to be saved? That's not in the bible, nor is God the son, nor is there anything saying that we must believe that Jesus is God to be saved either, so are their also heretics? Or is that ok because it's what you're church believes in even though it's nowhere in the bible?
marhig
Well-known member
You've got no right to judge who is and who isn't saved, you're not God!
marhig
Well-known member
As for your p s. Then you'll know that the father is also the God of Christ Jesus then if the Father is the only true God?
Right Divider
Body part
Your confusion is typical of unbelievers. You should change your mind and believe.
marhig
Well-known member
Your post is quite long and will take me a while to read, and I'm a bit busy at the moment.
But I've got a question, please see the following verses, why shouldn't I believe them when they clearly show is that God is also the God of Jesus? And these are only a few, I have many more if you would like to see them? I'll post them later if you like when I have some time?
John 17:3 kjv
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”(John 20:17 KJV)
And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with*him, that we may be also glorified together(Romans 8)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)
Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him
Revelation 3
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)
marhig
Well-known member
So you can't answer me? I don't have to believe what you tell me, it's not the truth! Show me where it says in the bible that I must believe that Jesus is God, or in the trinity, or that i have to believe in God the son to be saved?
It doesn't, it's says to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and I do?
Anyway I'm off for now.
The WORD (JESUS) became flesh. There is no contradiction saying the Word is Jesus because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and Jesus was conceived into flesh and dwelt among us.
You still have yet to show where the Bible states that the Word and Jesus are two different persons.
Can Almighty God, a spirit, not become flesh? is that impossible for Him to do?
Keypurr, I explained this now how many times?
The words literally mean "to think like" or "to have the same mindset as" Christ. You apparently didn't read my explanation, or you wouldn't be attempting to make this argument again. IT CANNOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS. It is IMPOSSIBLE to translate it according to your theology.
You keep making this claim, but keep failing to provide scripture that shows them as two separate entities. Jesus is the Logos.
Keypurr, can a father, instead of calling his son by his name, call him "son" when talking about him? Yes?
So then why can't the Father call Jesus "Son" and not use Jesus' name?
"AND THE WORD (a spirit) BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US." So what's your point?
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy3:16&version=NKJV
Keypurr, who was manifested in the flesh?
The Word (B) was made flesh (C).
God (A) was manifested in the flesh (C).
If A=C and B=C, then A=B.
Oh wait, that's exactly what John 1:1 says:
"And God was the Word"
Keypurr, who was preached among the Gentiles?
Jesus (D) was preached among the Gentiles (E) by Paul.
God (A) was preached among the Gentiles (E).
If D=E, and A=E, and A=B=C, then A=B=C=D=E.
Keypurr, who was received up in glory?
Jesus (D) was received up in glory (F).
God (A) was received up in glory (F).
IF D=F, and A=F, and A=B=C=D=E=F
Therefore:
God is the Word.
Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Word.
Now lets add the next part of your post:
Oh look, God is calling the Son "God."
Therefore:
The Son is God.
God is the Word.
Jesus is the Word.
Jesus is the Son
Jesus is God.
Jesus is "God the Son."
Next verse:
This verse is better translated as "O God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultation above your companions."
The word, "even," was inserted by translators. It doesn't change the meaning, but it weakens the passage slightly. "O God, your God has anointed" better matches the previous verse.
Here is the Greek:
Even if that isn't correct, you can't possibly imagine that the author of Hebrews forgot what He said in the previous verse, calling the Son "God." No, this verse doesn't change the fact that the author calls the Son "God."
As for the other "God" in this passage, remember when Jesus called the Father His God? (meaning the Father is God.)
The Father is the one speaking in Hebrews 1:5-12. Yet the Father calls His Son "God."
Who is the one who anointed Jesus in Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, John 1:32, and Acts 10:38?
The Holy Spirit.
So, Keypurr, if the Father (who is God) is talking about the Son (who is God) and mentions another who anointed the Son, and calls him God, and we know that the One who did the anointing is the Holy Spirit, then that means that the Holy Spirit is God.
That's the Trinity.
Father. Son. Holy Spirit.
God.
"Baptising them in the NAME (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Now, the Bible I use has "LORD" instead of "Lord". In Hebrew, that would indicate that the word YHWH was being used. But this is Greek, not Hebrew, and Greek doesn't have a word for YHWH. However, at this point, even in just these three verses, it's extremely obvious to anyone who isn't a complete idiot that the Father is still speaking to the Son when He says that "In the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thy hands.
Genesis 1:1 states explicitly that God created the heavens and the earth, so by the Father saying to the Son that the Son created those things, the author of Hebrews is saying that God the Father is calling the Son God, and we know there is only one God, and His name is YHWH, I AM WHO I AM. So the translators are justified in using "LORD" instead of "Lord," because they are referring to the SAME PERSON.
Says the one who is 6 feet underground.
Who's kingdom is it? The Son's.
Yet elsewhere in Scripture we see it referred to as "The kingdom of God."
So do you think that perhaps Paul is calling the Son God? Or do you think that Paul is confused?
Who do we have redemption through?
The Son.
Who is our redeemer?
As for our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel. - Isaiah 47:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah47:4&version=NKJV
YHWH is our redeemer.
YHWH is God.
Therefore the Son is God.
"That in all things he might have the preeminence." This verse is saying Christ the Son is preeminent. Not that he was created. Or do you think God was created? IF SO, then He COULD NOT BE God.
Because Jesus is God, the Son of God, and the Word, and because Scripture does not contradict itself because God wrote it, then this verse CANNOT mean, I repeat, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this verse to mean, that Christ was created.
If this verse says the Son created all things, and Genesis 1 says that God created all things, then that means that the Son is God.
Speaking of the Son being God.
Christ is preeminent. The Head of the Body of Christ. He is the beginning (and the end).
He cannot be a "created form of God" because He IS God, as I have just shown you above.
Keypurr, you're forgetting that a baby is alive for 9 months prior to being born. Life begins at conception.
The Word became flesh, being conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit, and so the God of the universe became a man and dwelt among us.
It's THAT SIMPLE!
See my previous paragraphs.
Keypurr, where in the Bible does it call the Father the logos?
John 1:1 calls God the Word, but it's talking about Jesus, the Son. Not the Father.
Yes, the Father sent His Son, Jesus.
John 3:16.
No, Keypurr, not questionable.
Who is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and End?
Hint:
Spoiler
That is who is sitting on the throne here:
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” - Revelation 21:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation21:5-8&version=NKJV
And He says:
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. - Revelation 21:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation21:7&version=NKJV
So Jesus, who is sitting on the throne, is claiming to be God. If he were not God, it would be blasphemous. But since He IS God, then He has every right to make that statement.
There are no assumptions being made other than your assumption that I must be wrong because you think you have some profound knowledge that no one else has.
If you don't believe me, I challenge you to READ WHAT IS WRITTEN, both here and in the Bible.
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Right Divider
Body part
It's ALL over the scripture, you just don't want to believe scripture:
John 8:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:21) Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. (8:22) Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. (8:23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. (8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Don't be stupid. If you're not a Christian, you're not saved. Duh!
Besides, we're commanded to judge all over the place and telling someone that it is wrong to judge is the fastest road to hypocrisy I can think of.
Don't make me put you on my ignore list. I won't tolerate stupidity. Did you really miss the point by that much?
keypurr
Well-known member
keypurr
Well-known member
keypurr
Well-known member
I did not realize that Christ no longer had the job of judgement, is Clete doing that job now?
Debating Christian doctrine as recorded in the scriptures is not the same as debating church doctrine on TOL.
Alpha Omega, First Last in Revelations is ambigous, it could refur to both but I see them as the Father
God can not die, but a created form of God could.
I worship my God as God and my Lord as Lord.
There is a difference between them friend.
I only have one God and it is not the man who was born in Bethleham.
Sent from my iPad using TOL
Right Divider
Body part
It's not a problem at all.
I don't accept your contrived and disingenuous "forgiveness".
Right Divider
Body part
Indeed it has and indeed you (and many others) have continued to reject this truth.
keypurr
Well-known member
The WORD was IN Jesus.
Start with Heb 10;5
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Who needed a BODY prepared for him?????
God has no limits but he said he sent his SON.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I disagree
Answer the question above.
He can, but did he mean Jesus??? No he did not.
What does "manifested" mean to you? It means to MAKE KNOW. The Son was here to make know God.
The WORD is a form of God, Phil 2
The word became one with the man, what part of that do you not understand?
O God could equal A god. Ask yourself why 'O God" is used. Try "O Elohim"
"It is clear that the person addressed as "o God" is not God Almighty but the king, because of what is said later: God Almighty is the king's own God and has "anointed' him with oil........"
"from "When did Jesus become God, by Bart Ehrman"
ASSUME,ASSUME, ASSUME
Next verse:
This verse is better translated as "O God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultation above your companions."
The word, "even," was inserted by translators. It doesn't change the meaning, but it weakens the passage slightly. "O God, your God has anointed" better matches the previous verse.
Here is the Greek:
Even if that isn't correct, you can't possibly imagine that the author of Hebrews forgot what He said in the previous verse, calling the Son "God." No, this verse doesn't change the fact that the author calls the Son "God."
As for the other "God" in this passage, remember when Jesus called the Father His God? (meaning the Father is God.)
The Father is the one speaking in Hebrews 1:5-12. Yet the Father calls His Son "God."
SEE ABOVE
THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT.
Jesus received the Spirit (logos) at his anointing.
Again there is no proof of a trinity, speculation at best. And you should not use a questionable verse to prove your point
Your point? Are you using the wrong Bible?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
No but you are.
Who do we have redemption through?
The Son.
Who is our redeemer?
As for our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel. - Isaiah 47:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah47:4&version=NKJV
YHWH is our redeemer.
YHWH is God.
Therefore the Son is God.
If Christ did the work of this Father why are not they both redeemers?
It means bot first to be born and preeminence. If all things were made through the SON, he had to be first to be born of all creatures, just as it says.
You have yet to prove that Jesus is God. Christ (logos) is the express IMAGE of his creator. M\Name amy image that is not created.
Nope again, your assuming again. The spirit Son was at the creation to do what he was told to do.
"a god"
1Co_11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co_11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
So you discard this verse then?
!
The WORD came to Jesus with POWER at is anointing. Acts 10:38
I doesn't as far as I know.
Nope it does not, I think it is a translation error. "a god", and it is not Jesus in question.
That is about the logos and Jesus.