God's Truth
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Muslims deny Jesus is God, as the trinitarians preach.
Maybe if they were taught the truth they wouldn't have such a strong case against you.
God the Father can do anything He wants, and He chose to come as a Man in the flesh.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Muslims deny Jesus is God, as the trinitarians preach.
Maybe if they were taught the truth they wouldn't have such a strong case against you.
God the Father can do anything He wants, and He chose to come as a Man in the flesh.
God's Truth
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What is close to you? Satan is a copycat and tries to be close. Close is not good enough.
Calvinism is not truth and you saying I preach close to Calvinism means nothing to me.
It only means you come to insult and not come with scripture and truth.
God's Truth
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Muslims are in falseness fighting trinitarians in falseness.
And even without those works, God made them (and me, also a gentile) able to become sons of God. They do that by believing the message of salvation. What is the message of salvation? Well, which group of people are we talking about? Throughout the Old Testament, it was "works + faith". Jesus taught "works + faith". The Apostles taught "works + faith". Yet when Paul shows up, he teaches "faith + no works", but that good deeds are a result of faith, not a requirement of salvation. Peter remarked on this, that it was difficult to understand why God was changing the requirements for salvation, because what Peter was teaching was what had been taught since Abraham, about 1900 years worth of teaching, in fact, so it's no wonder what Paul was teaching was hard to understand.
Islam denies the RESURRECTION of the Lord Jesus. Whatever else they deny is a red herring. Why can't you see this?
He sent His Son. :duh:
popsthebuilder
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Though St. Paul would have never taken credit for the miraculous grace of GOD; that doesn't mean he denied it either though. He did turn from his previous persutes. Some here would have you think nothing took place though miracles happened. They would have you think that the free gift is of no effect and causes no change.
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Rosenritter
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Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean, but it doesn't sound right to say that God has to encompass every rock and twig to be perfect. That sounds more like the language of Pantheism (God is everything), or falling into a logic trap that God cannot create something, because if he created, then he would have to encompass it to be perfect, but since he created it, he wasn't perfect before. And so forth.
I still think your are interpreting perfect to mean something else other than was intended. When Jesus says that "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" it means perfect in love, it's not using the philosophical sense you described above. If you use a KJV search on "God" and "perfect" the hits are about God's way being perfect, or in some other sense. I don't see where it's used as "encompassing all things uniquely."
popsthebuilder
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Rosenritter
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If you think we are all missing something, why don't you enlighten us then?
popsthebuilder
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Oh... I get it; that is you admitting you were wrong.
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popsthebuilder
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Rosenritter
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I have noticed that the "next unread" button always takes me to the very most recent post, rather than the next unread. It used to work, but it doesn't now. Anyone else have that problem?
popsthebuilder
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You get no thing but what your carnal mentality and prideful presuppositions give to your blind assumptions.
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popsthebuilder
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Regardless of what name the faith goes by; the vast majority seem quite lost.
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popsthebuilder
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They do not deny the resurrection of Isa (Jesus) the Messiah.
Perhaps you could quote Quran to substantiate such a claim or refrain from making it.
peace
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:freak: Yes Islam does deny the RESURRECTION. They deny that He even died, how could they then believe that He is risen, if Islam believes that He never even died?
How about you show where Islam believes that He rose from the dead, when they don't even believe that He died on the cross at Calvary in the first place? Or just explain how it's possible?
I can show directly from the Quran that Islam rejects that He even died. I know that you cannot show from any Muslim source that Islam believes in the RESURRECTION.
popsthebuilder
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2:72. And when you had killed a man, then you differed among yourselves respecting it. And GOD will bring to light that which you had been hiding.
2:73. So We said, ‘Judge it in the context of its other circumstances.’ That is how GOD brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs so that you may refrain.
3:45. When the angels said, ‘O Mary! GOD gives you good tidings through a word from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and in the Hereafter and one of the nearest ones,
4:157. And because of their (falsely) claiming, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the (false) Messenger of Allâh,’ whereas they killed him not, nor did they cause his death by crucifixion, but he was made to them to resemble (one crucified to death). Verily, those who differ therein are certainly in (a state of) confusion about it. They have no definite knowledge of the matter but are only following a conjecture. They did not kill him, this much is certain (and thus could not prove the Christ as accursed).
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وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ*ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ*ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ*ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
4:157 In this verse both qatalقَتَل (killing) and salabصَلَب (death on the cross) of Jesus are denied. In Mufradât Râghib it is written that qatalقَتَل is to separate the soul from the body. Death by a violent blow, sword, or stoning fall under the category of qatal قَتَل. Tâj al-;Arûs gives the same meaning. Both Tâj al-‘Arûs and Lisân al-‘Arab say salab is the death in a certain well-known manner by hanging on a cross. Just as to stone or hit someone with an object who did not die as the result is not qatal, so to hang someone on cross who did not die is not salab صَلَب. No standard Arab lexicon says that salabصَلَب is just to hang a person on cross without a resulting death. Unfortunately, this is the wrong understanding of many Muslims. Salabصَلَب is “to kill a person by putting him on cross long enough till his body dries up and blood has flown out and the body fat has melted away” (Tâj, Lisân). The body has to remain on the cross for at least three days (Encyclopaedia Biblica and Jewish Encyclopaedia), enough time for the crucifixion to be universally fatal. It is this fact the Qur’ân denies when it says وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ, “They killed him not, nor did they cause his death by crucifixion.” In other words, it is wrong to conclude that Jesus is alive and did not die at all, just because the Holy Qur’ân states he did not die by crucifixion or another violent cause. The Holy Qur’ân does not reject outright the histories of other nations, but deals exclusively with those facts that refute their wrong beliefs pertaining to Divine Laws and religious doctrines. It is accepted by Jewish and Christian historians that Jesus was on the cross only for a few hours. As the Sabbath was approaching, he was removed the same day before sunset. There is also a historical dispute whether his hands and feet were nailed or just tied with a rope, which would have caused even less injury. One of the main arguments the Jews used to deny Jesus prophethood was that he died a cursed death by crucifixion. Two different beliefs prevail among the Jews regarding this allegation about the death of Jesus. One is that Jesus was first killed and his dead body was then hung on the cross; the other version is that being put on the cross caused his death (cf. Deut. 21.23; Ezek.13.9; Is.14.15). The Holy Qur’ân refutes both these beliefs by saying, “They killed him not, nor did they cause his death by crucifixion.” The words mâ Salbû-hu مَا صَلَبُوهُ do not negate that Jesus was placed on the cross. I simply means Jesus was not killed by putting him on a cross, or he did not die on cross. Thus the Holy Qur’ân first rejects the slaying of Jesus in any form by saying mâ qatalû-hu مَا قَتَلُوهُ “they killed him not,” and then proceeds to deny the particular way of killing him by hanging him on a cross. The meaning is that he was made to resemble a person who had died—in other words, became unconscious. It was for this reason that he was mistakenly thought to be dead. This interpretation is not only in harmony with the Qur’ânic context but is also clearly borne out by the Bible and the relevant facts of history. The verse emphasizes that Jesus Christ was not a false prophet. He was worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and was one of those who are drawn close to Allâh. However, according to Jewish law, his supposed death on the cross proves him an impostor, as the associated curse means he could not be a true prophet. Yet several points mentioned in the Bible indicate this is not correct and support the version of events laid out by the Holy Qur’ân. These can be summarized as follows:
1. Jesus himself had predicted his escape from death on the cross saying, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whales belly, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12.40). It is recognized that Jonah had entered the whales belly alive and had come out alive; therefore, according to his own prophecy, Jesus was to enter the heart of the earth (his tomb) alive and was to come out of it alive.
2. The magistrate Pilate (Pilatus) who tried the case of Jesus believed him to be innocent and, out of sympathy for him, made efforts to save his life (Matt. 27.17; Mark 15.9-10-14; Luke 23.4, 14-15, 20, 22; John 18.38). Pilates wife had seen a vision concerning the innocence of Jesus, and while he (Pilatus) was sitting in judgment, his wife sent to him a message: “Have thou nothing to do with that just man, for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him” (Matt. 27:19). Pilate actually “washed his hands with water,” saying that he was innocent of the blood of that just man (Matt. 27.24); he therefore contributed to saving the life of Jesus. He had Jesus put on the cross on a Friday knowing that the body would have to be taken down before the Sabbath started at sundown the same day, so that he would not die on the cross.
3. Jesus prayed the whole night before his arrest to be saved from death on the cross, and he asked his Disciples to pray for him. The Prayers of a Prophet in distress are always accepted. Apparently, he received a promise from Allâh to be saved, to which he referred when he cried out on the cross, “My God, my God! Why hast Thou forsaken me?” This indicates that he might have transiently doubted this promise in his painful state on the cross; however, Gods promise is always true. Heb. 5.7 makes the matter still more clear, for there it is plainly stated that the prayer of Jesus was accepted, “when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him Who was able to save him from death and he was heard in that he feared.”
4. The appointed soldiers also treated Jesus with kindness, apparently under Pilate’s instructions. Every male carried his own horizontal crossbar, but another man was made to carry that of Jesus (Matt. 27.32; Mark15.21).
5. Jesus was given myrrh mixed in a drink, as myrrh was said to lessen pain. The two thieves who were crucified with him were not given this drink. When after some time the effects of the drink began to wear off and Jesus cried out with pain, the drink was administered to him again (Matt. 27.34, 48; Mark15.23, 36; John19.29-30). The unconsciousness that followed his ingestion of the drink was mistaken for death (John19.30).
6. Jesus remained on the cross only for a few hours (Mark 15.25; John 19.14), but death by crucifixion is always a lengthy process and this relatively short amount of time was by no means sufficient to kill a healthy young man of thirty-three like Jesus. The two men crucified with Jesus were still alive when taken down from the cross; therefore, the presumption is that Jesus, too, was alive.
7. The legs of the other two men were broken, but this was not done to Jesus (John 19.32-33).
8. When Jesus side was pierced, blood rushed out, which was also a certain sign of life.
9. Even Pilate, who had much experience in such cases, did not believe that Jesus actually died in so short a time. When Joseph of Arimathaea came and asked for the body of Jesus, “Pilate wondered if Jesus was already dead, and calling to him the centurion, asked him whether he had been any while dead” (Mark 15.44).
10. Jesus was not buried in the earth with the two thieves, who were killed with an axe after their removal from the cross, but was given into the charge of a wealthy disciple of his, Joseph of Arimathaea, who lavished care on him and laid him separately in a spacious sepulchre hewn out of a rock and situated in a garden, which was Josephs private property (Mark 15.46; John 19.41- 42).
11. The Jews themselves were not sure that Jesus was dead, “for they came to Pilate and requested that his (Jesus) legs be broken” (John 19.31).
12. The suspicion that Jesus was alive and might, with the aid of his sympathisers, escape from the sepulchre rankled in the mind of the Jews. They also remembered the prophecy of Jesus that he would show them the miracle of Jonah and would come out of the belly alive, and so they besought Pilate to command that the sepulchre be made secure until the third day (Matt. 27.62-66).
13. In spite of the watch and the sealing by the stone, Jesus had left the sepulchre before the third day had dawned. When Mary Magdalene and “the other Mary,” (probably mother of James), came to see the sepulchre, they found the stone rolled away and the sepulchre empty (Matt. 28.1-6; Mark 16.1-6). It is very possible that the men guarding the tomb were won over by, or in league with the friends and sympathisers of Jesus. When both women saw the tomb, the stone was found to have been removed from its opening, which would not have been the case if there had been a supernatural rising.
14. After leaving the sepulchre Jesus moved about secretly, to prevent the Jews from having him arrested again (Mark16.12; John 20.19,26; 21.4. Mary Magdalene, when she saw him, took him, for a gardener (John 20.15), as he likely was disguised as such. Such a disguise would not have been needed if Jesus had risen from the dead.
15. The Ointment of Jesus that was prepared for the wounds from the cross proves that he did not die on the cross: otherwise, there would have been no need of such an ointment.
16. It was in the same body of flesh and clay that Mary Magdalene and the Disciples saw Jesus (Mark 16.9-12).
17. Jesus showed them his wounds to assure them that the body they saw before them was the same physical body that had been put to the cross (Luke 24.39-40) and the wounds were still there, deep enough for a man to feel with his hands (John 20.25-28).
18. After leaving the sepulchre Jesus felt hungry and took food with his Disciples and ate as his Disciples ate (Luke 24.39-43; John 21.5, 13).
19. Jesus undertook a journey to Galilee with two of his Disciples walking side by side with them (Matt. 28.10), which indicates that he was fleeing for refuge. A journey to Galilee was not necessary to rise to heaven.
20. In all post-crucifixion appearances Jesus is found hiding himself as if he feared being discovered. The statements made in the Holy Qur’ân corroborate the above statements quoted from the Gospels that Jesus did not die on the cross, but that he was alive when he was taken down from the cross. Furthermore, he was also alive when he was laid in the sepulchre, and he came out of the sepulchre alive the third day in the early morning, as he himself prophesied. Later he appeared to his Disciples in secret and assured them that he was not dead. Jesus had said, “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice and there be one fold and one shepherd” (John10.16). In these words, he was referring to the ten lost tribes of Israel who were scattered because of the attacks by Nebuchadnezzar. Jesus travelled to the East in search of them after his escape from death on the cross, and he now lies buried among them.
The words in the text Shubbiha شُبِّهَ mean that the matter was rendered confused, obscure, and dubious (Tâj; Lisân; Mufradât Râghib; see also Rûh al-Ma‘âni). To get out of the muddle of wrong translation and misunderstanding of وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ “They killed him not, nor did they cause his death by crucifixion,” a story has been invented that someone else was made to resemble Jesus and was then crucified in his place. This story has no support from Qur’ân and has no historical foundation. Allâh would not allow unjustly crucifying someone who is innocent in order to save Jesus from death. If we accept this explanation, we have to admit either Jesus was an imposter and deceiver, as the Jews claimed, or Allâh gave Jews intentionally the wrong impression that they killed Jesus. This would enforce the Jews in their claim that Jesus died an accursed death. Why should Allâh keep Jews in this wrong belief for more than 600 years, until the Revelation of the Holy Qur’ân to clarify the matter?
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Rosenritter
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When the teaching is that a look-alike substituted for Jesus on the cross, how would then Jesus be resurrected if he didn't die?
Rosenritter
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Kindness? They scourged Jesus so much that visage was unrecognizable. The reason another carried his crossbeam was because they had beaten him so badly that he was unable. If they had forced him at that point, he would have died before his crucifixion, and they couldn't have that, could they? Other prisoners lived longer on the cross because they hadn't been beaten and whipped and lost so much blood before hand.
'Never said that Islam doesn't believe in the general resurrection of the dead. Islam does believe this, and Islam also believes that the Lord Jesus shall judge us all at the resurrection of the dead.
Like I said, Islam does not believe that the Lord died on the cross, in direct contradiction of the Gospel accounts, and of the New Testament as a whole. So Islam cannot and does not believe that He is risen from the dead.
Nothing in that wall of text says Islam believes in the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, but just continues to deny that He even died on the cross at Calvary.
It's not Christian, Muslims aren't saved, and we're all now beginning to wonder whether you yourself believe in the RESURRECTION.