The Trinity

The Trinity


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popsthebuilder

New member
I do not have to calm down as I have not gotten angry yet. Irked sometimes, yes.

What did you specifically do to be saved?
What obedience did you bring to be saved?
What did you ADD to the 'It is finished' of Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary to be saved?
I already mentioned the circumstances of my receiving faith. I won't be going over the exact same things with you repeatedly like this is some silly little game or show. If you are genuinely curious I can pm you an attempt at a personal recounting of what took place.

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Rosenritter

New member
I said no such thing.

BTW you cannot seek salvation. God seek us to save us. We, when He finds us, are going in our merry way straight to hell.

What a awesome, glorious, unfathomable God I serve that He came down to me for He knew that I, me, and myself, could never, ever go up to Him.

Romans 2:5-8 KJV
(5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
(6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
(8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

It seems to me that not only can we seek salvation, but that is exactly what God wants us to do.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Then you produced your own salvation just like gt and others here.
Luke: 23. 8. And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.

Job: 5. 15. But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth, and from the hand of the mighty. 16. So the poor hath hope, and iniquity stoppeth her mouth. 17. Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: 18. For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole. 19. He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee. 20. In famine he shall redeem thee from death: and in war from the power of the sword. 21. Thou shalt be hid from the scourge of the tongue: neither shalt thou be afraid of destruction when it cometh. 22. At destruction and famine thou shalt laugh: neither shalt thou be afraid of the beasts of the earth. 23. For thou shalt be in league with the stones of the field: and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with thee. 24. And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not sin. 25. Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great, and thine offspring as the grass of the earth. 26. Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season. 27. Lo this, we have searched it, so it is; hear it, and know thou it for thy good.

Psalm: 31. 22. For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee. 23. O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. 24. Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.


Psalm: 33. 10. The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect. 11. The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. 12. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance. 13. The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. 14. From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. 15. He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works. 16. There is no king saved by the multitude of an host: a mighty man is not delivered by much strength. 17. An horse is a vain thing for safety: neither shall he deliver any by his great strength. 18. Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19. To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20. Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21. For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22. Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

I never said my being given faith hinged on me hoping for and praying for GOD'S/ Jesus's/ Christ's help.

Do you realize that assuming is really close to lying?

We all do it at times, but it really seems like you're just trying to paint a picture with colors that do not reflect the actual realistic representation of the subject matter.


Then you produced your own salvation just like gt and others here.

Then you produced your own salvation just like gt and others here.


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Rosenritter

New member
In order for God to exist he must be perfect, that is, infinite, exhaustively complete and therefore lacking nothing. God therefore encompasses everything. This means that there can never be two perfect beings: because, in order for more than one being to exist, there must be something that differentiates one from the other. Therefore, if one believes that Jesus is perfect, either he is God, or Jesus being perfect is a false belief.

Here is an illustration... Lets say you have 1 apple, 1 orange, and 1 pear and this is everything that you have. Now lets say you go buy 1 apple, 1 orange, and 1 pear. Now, do you have two everythings? No, "everything" is all inclusive; therefore, everything is now 2 apples, 2 oranges, and 2 pears. There are multiple items that can exist within everything, but there can only ever be one everything, because everything encompasses all. If God is perfect, he encompasses everything. Therefore if someone believes that Jesus is perfect, he is believed to be either God or the belief that Jesus is perfect is incorrect in accordance with the perfection of God.

OK, I understand your logic now. But it's seems like a flawed logic, namely in your definition of perfect. Perfect does not mean "encompasses everything" or else we, and every rock tree and twig must also be God.

If you had one being, God, and then there was a second almost like him, with the difference that he liked the color red more than the color blue, and he liked vanilla more than chocolate, would this new being be any less "perfect?"

I'm not preaching more than one God, I'm just saying that I don't think your specific argument proves what you wanted it to.
 
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popsthebuilder

New member
God's Son came to pay a debt you and I cannot even begin to think to come close to paying (the wages of sin is death).

God in His pleasure decided that the shedding of the perfect blood's life of His Son was the payment He desired. Why? I do not know.

Aren't you happy I am not god? I would have destroyed every single one of my creation, that is if I was god, and started a robotom creation that would obey me just because. I am gloriously happy I am NOT god and God decided to redeem one of His creation as such a one as me.

I cannot bring anything to be saved by God. I must believe He has provided the way of His salvation - Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work at he Cross of Calvary so that He can save me.

Wait... GOD, the eternal omnipotent omniscient creator of all existence manifested ITSELF (spirit) in the flesh so IT could kill IT'S eternal self and be a blood sacrifice to ITSELF to pay ITSELF for a debt owed to ITSELF because IT'S creation did exactly what IT knew they would do, and this blood sacrifice is why people can now go about knowingly committing atrocious acts and deeds of all sorts and wholly neglecting what is good and right in favor of pride and greed?

I'm a little confused as to your presupposition; could you clarify the illogical parts please?

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lifeisgood

New member
"Woe to you....you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Woe to you,....you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

Woe to you,....you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.... You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town."

How is that for a reply?

Exactly what I was expecting.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
TO BE SAVED He did. He is the ONLY ONE who OBEYED God PERFECTLY.

The only thing puny little ones such as myself can do is receive what He desired to provide to ungrateful, undeserving human being such as yourself and myself.

However, you deny Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work at the Cross of Calvary as the exclusive way to receive His salvation. Remember, gt, it is His salvation, He does not need any of us to ADD anything to what He Himself said 'It is finished.'
And by receive you mean reject by doing nothing with?

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popsthebuilder

New member
When was the last time you sold everything you have.



We stay saved by continue to BELIEVE that Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work at the Cross of Calvary has saved us.

You keep on forgetting that SALVATION is ALL OF GOD, you, gt, had absolutely nothing to do with His gift; neither did I.

When you do something to receive a gift, it no longer is a gift.
So using a gift is synonymous with rejecting a gift to you?

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popsthebuilder

New member
Exactly, because they are bringing THEIR way of salvation, which has already categorically been rejected by God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) before the foundation of the world.

You should bring the rest of the conversation, and not simply pluck certain verses that you like out of its original context, you know, the part that says, 'hey, look at all that we did. Look at us. Didn't we do this in your name? Didn't we do that in your name?'

Notice that the Lord did not negate that they had done all they said they had done in His name. He rejected them however.

All that doing and being rejected by the Lord.
No.... Because all they do is lip service while knowingly going against the will of GOD behind closed doors.

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lifeisgood

New member
Where does it say this on the Bible? That Jesus came exclusively to die on the cross? Because I've never read that.

In fact Jesus clearly says why he came into this world, and that is to bare witness to the truth, and those who are of the truth, hear his voice!

John 18:37

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

In the presence of whom was He in, marhig?
What had they done to Him, marhig?
What were they doing to Him, marhig?
What cause He was going though at that moment, marhig?
Did He ever said that He was going to Jerusalem to die on a cruel Cross, marhig?

If you can answer the above honestly to you, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

And then Jesus answers Pilate:
'To this end was I born' What end marhig?
'for this cause I came into the world' What cause marhig?
'that I should bear witness unto the truth' What truth marhig?
'Every one that is of the truth' have you answered to yourself 'what truth', marhig?
"heareth my voice' Have you heard His truth yet, marhig?

Thank you so much for reminding me all He had to go through to save such a puny, undeserving nobody like me.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Job said that he would see God in his flesh, prior to his death when the worms destroy [his] body. Again, Job was talking about a future event of seeing God before his death. Job didn't say that he saw God by v26 nor was he stating that others in future times will see God, again, he said HE will see God. Scripture makes it clear that "no man has seen or can see [God]" (1 Timothy 6:16) since God is "invisible"(Col 1:15). Job saw God in a figurative sense when God spoke to him from the windstorm, he himself stated this, "My ears have heard about you, But now I do see you with my eyes" (Job 42:5). The events of v25 did NOT occur during Job's lifetime.

It is your assumption to believe that the God in v26 is referring to the redeemer who Job said would stand up in the last days.

What can we tell from v25&26?

1. Job said he knows the redeemer is alive will come in the last days (v25)
2. Job said he will see God before his death (v26)

How you managed to link the God mentioned in v26, who Job said he will see before his death, and the redeemer in v25 who would stand up in the last says is beyond me. To claim that Job saw the redeemer is to unwittingly admit that Job lived until Jesus living for hundreds and hundreds of years. Job did not say he would seethe redeemer but only that "that [his] redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth", Job simply stated he knew the redeemer was alive and would come in the last days, Job then went on to say he would see God before his death. Again, it is your wild assumption that the Job claimed Jesus was God, these texts certainly don't say so.

Job doesn't say that he will see God before his death. That's something you added into your reading of the passage. Your reading requires that verses 25 and 26 be divorced from each other, entirely unrelated. These words are obviously part of the same thought: God lives, he shall return, and Job will die, yet in his flesh he is going to see God when he returns.

Job 19:25-27 KJV
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Verse 26 was not given in the sense of having foreknowledge that God was about to appear... if you remember, God entered the conversation rather abruptly. Look at verse 26, because "yet in my flesh shall I see God" is predicated by the condition of "And thou after my skin worms destroy this body...."

Thus, verse 26 is not fulfilled until after worms consume the body of Job.

The entire passage, verses 25-27, is a future prophecy of God's visible setting foot on earth, and his own resurrection.

Why this objection?... "Man cannot see God?" Perhaps man cannot see the invisible God, as he exists outside of earth, but God can be seen by the naked eye when he wills it to be. Exodus 33:11, "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" and again,

Numbers 12:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
(7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

I suspect it is because the concept of God visible in the flesh seems too dangerous for you to allow...

However, if you can explain how Job can fulfill his prophecy of "

And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold, and not another;
though my reins be consumed within me.

Without his skin and body being destroyed by worms, and his reins being consumed within him, then I could see how "yet in my flesh shall I see God" would have already been fulfilled. That event was spoken in the context of total destruction of Job and dissolution after death. I haven't heard anyone explain it as you did, and as such I suspect that your explanation owes more to avoiding the equivalence that Job foreshadowed of God and He whom we now call Christ.
 

Rosenritter

New member
How can you say I reject something that is yet to be established? You certainly can't say I've rejected the trinity doctrine according to the things you've shown since you've shown me nothing in relation to the teaching of the trinity.

Again, if you can show me a single scripture that teaches the trinity I'll renounce my faith as a JW and worship the God as a Trinity. Showing me a scripture that simply mentions the Father, Son and Holy Spirit together does not teach or show anything, it does not express that God is one who it three persons.

Do you admit the bible does not anywhere explicitly teach the trinity but you derive your understanding of the trinity from texts that seem to hint to a trinity?

NWL, you are still arguing tooth and nail against passages that plainly state that God was visible in manifest form to Abraham. If you're not ready to accept something so small, you wouldn't make a huge leap and adopt "Trinity" even if there were such a passage. Be realistic now.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Romans 2:5-8 KJV
(5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
(6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
(8) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

It seems to me that not only can we seek salvation, but that is exactly what God wants us to do.

To whom is Romans written to, Rosenritter? To BElievers, Rosenritter.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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popsthebuilder

New member
Correct.



John 14:23 – Jesus talking about what He speaks is based on love, which is the exact opposite of what the Apostles were saying, which was force. They wanted Jesus to use His Power to force Rome and other people of the world to recognize Israel as the premier nation. Jesus is saying that His manifestation of Himself was to the heart, was inward and spiritual, therefore, the heart enjoying His abiding in it.

Acts 5:32 – Their Doctrine was NOT a mere philosophy, rather eyewitness accounts. The witness of the Holy Spirit in the hearts and lives of Believers guarantees the veracity of all that Christ has done at the Cross.

As I have said to you many times – take the verse out of its original context and a pretext is being promoted.

She didn't take them out of context

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