I know I have not participated in this thread for some time, however I have attempted to keep up to date on it.
That being said, I have a question. How does a non-Trinitarian argue the events of the baptism of Christ, as found in Matthew and Luke 3? God speaks, saying "This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
God has never spoken in such a manner regarding a "man." Look at every prophet. Never did God speak in such fashion, or intimacy. Also, never had the Holy Spirit descended as a dove before. How does a non-Trinity view hold this verse? And how does a non-Trinity view answer the question of why God would speak in such an intimate manner?
One final point, which seems to always be discussed, but never outright said: Non-Trinitarians utilize the question, "why would God kill Himself?" This question, while an attempt to argue with logic, opens another question. That of "why could God not do that?" To say that God can't is a limit of God's absolute power. Questioning God's ability to do something is a questioning of God Himself. Asking "why," in search of a source/rationale is reasonable, but for the particular of Christ's sacrifice, it gets reduced to a "how." This is a recurring fault I find in a non-Trinity argument.
Welcome to the thread friend. I was a Trin for many years.
God declared that this was his Son after the dove brought the logos to Jesus. That is important to realize. The son of a King is not King, he is a Prince. God's son is not God, he is his son.
The true son is the express image of the Father, a spirit,not a man. This spirit (logos) entered and dwelled in Jesus. It spoke through the body prepared for it. This spirit had the power of the Father. God created all through it.
God could not send himself to die for us because God can not die. But the logos is a creation/creature, it could do the job needed.
God says that we are to have no other God's other than Him, nor are we to worship anyone other than Him.
*And God spoke all these words, saying:*“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.*“You shall have no other gods before Me.*“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; *you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, - Exodus 20:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:1-5&version=NKJV
He also tells us that idolatry (the worship of entities other than Him will result in us not inheriting His Kingdom, that they are works of the flesh.
*Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, *idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, *envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:19-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:19-21&version=NKJV
So we know now that worshipping of any other entity besides God is a sin.
So then why does Jesus (if He is not God, as you say) throughout the New Testament accept worship, ESPECIALLY before His baptism?
The Wise Men (aka Magi) worshipped Him:
*And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. - Matthew 2:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew2:11&version=NKJV
Jerusalem worshipped Him:
*And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road. *Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying:“Hosanna to the Son of David!‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’Hosanna in the highest!”*And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, “Who is this?”*So the multitudes said, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.” - Matthew 21:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew21:8-11&version=NKJV
*The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, *took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out:“Hosanna!‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’The King of Israel!”*Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written:*“Fear not, daughter of Zion;Behold, your King is coming,Sitting on a donkey’s colt.”*His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written about Him and that they had done these things to Him. - John 12:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:12-16&version=NKJV
His disciples worshipped Him:
*And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” *And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.*Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.” - Matthew 14:31-33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew14:31-33&version=NKJV
I believed that Moses, King David and others were worshipped also.
Jesus is the flesh son of the most high, a man. He was anointed with the logos. The only one ever to received the logos. The only one God could trust with the power of the logos.
Jesus was perfect, stainless man that is why he qualified as the Lamb of God.
Jesus was not the logos, the logos was IN him, remember the dove?
The logos became flesh in the body prepared for it, see Heb 10:5.
I understand the process, you do not. A body was prepared for the logos (spirit son, express image, Word). The logos is the Son God sent to dwell in the body (Jesus) God prepared for IT.
The true Son is a Spirit not a man.
Destructive Doctrines
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.
Yep, he was a sinless man, the flesh son of the most high. The body prepared to hold the true spirit Son that he sent. The sacrifice HAD to be a human.
Destructive Doctrines
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.
Yep, he was a sinless man, the flesh son of the most high. The body prepared to hold the true spirit Son that he sent. The sacrifice HAD to be a human.
But that still makes him a man. God is a title, a position. God is a spirit. Jesus was a man, a very special man, the Lamb of God, the savour of the world. But still just a man. He blead, he felt pain, he suffered as a man.
But that still makes him a man. God is a title, a position. God is a spirit. Jesus was a man, a very special man, the Lamb of God, the savour of the world. But still just a man. He blead, he felt pain, he suffered as a man.
[All verses I reference below I have quoted below]
Remember back in Matthew where Jesus (prior to His birth) is called Immanuel?
Remember back in Matthew, where Jesus (after He was born) was called Christ, and Ruler, and King of the Jews?
Remember back in Matthew, where Jesus was worshipped by the Magi? Worship is defined as "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity." If Jesus is not God, then He is not a deity, and is not worthy of worship.
Remember back in Matthew where Jesus fulfilled a prophecy made about God's Son? How could anyone but God's Son fulfill that prophecy?
Remember back in Matthew where Jesus and His mother were taken by Joseph into the city of Nazareth, so that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, fulfilling a prophecy about God's Son?
Remember back in Luke, where Jesus is named Son of the Highest, and promised the throne of David, and that He would rule forever and ever over the house of Jacob? Where Jesus is called "Holy One" and "Son of God"?
Remember back in Luke where Elizabeth calls Jesus her Lord, and then two sentences later, she calls God in Heaven her Lord?
Remember back in Luke where Jesus, mere moments after He was born, was called Savior, and Christ the Lord?
Remember back in Luke, where Simeon calls Jesus God's salvation, a light, and the glory of Israel?
Need I go on? Or are these Scriptures enough to show you that Jesus is Christ, and is the [Spirit] Son of God made flesh, as John 1:14 says? (Which passage also calls Jesus "Jesus Christ" before Jesus' baptism, need I remind you.)
*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. *He was in the beginning with God. *All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. *In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. *And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.*And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.*John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”*And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. *For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. *No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. - John 1:1-5,14-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-5,14-18&version=NKJV
The logos became flesh in the body prepared for it, see Heb 10:5. I understand the process, you do not. A body was prepared for the logos (spirit son, express image, Word). The logos is the Son God sent to dwell in the body (Jesus) God prepared for IT.
The true Son is a Spirit not a man.
Jesus is the Word made flesh. Don't believe me? Read through the four Gospels again.
The Son of God BECAME a Man, the Man, Christ Jesus.
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Spoiler
*And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”*So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: *“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”*Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, *and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus. - Matthew 1:21-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew1:21-25&version=NKJV
Spoiler
*Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, *saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”*When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. *And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.*So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:*‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;For out of you shall come a RulerWho will shepherd My people Israel.’” - Matthew 2:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew2:1-6&version=NKJV
Spoiler
*And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. - Matthew 2:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew2:11&version=NKJV
Spoiler
*When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, *and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.” - Matthew 2:14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew2:14-15&version=NKJV
Spoiler
*But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. *And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.” - Matthew 2:22-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew2:22-23&version=NKJV
Spoiler
*And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. *He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. *And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”*Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”*And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. - Luke 1:31-35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke1:31-35&version=NKJV
Spoiler
*Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! *But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? *For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. *Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.” - Luke 1:42-45 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke1:42-45&version=NKJV
*And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. *And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. *So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, *he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:*“Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,According to Your word;*For my eyes have seen Your salvation*Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,*A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,And the glory of Your people Israel.” - Luke 2:25-32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke2:25-32&version=NKJV
The son in question laid the foundation of the Universe. He/it is a created FORM of God, but not the most high. Look again, his God say he is "o God" or "a god" for he was given the fullness of the Father by the Father.
The verse says "O God," or in the Greek, "ho theos," literally "the God." "?" (ho) is the definite article "the" in Greek.
*But de regarding pros the ho Son hyios he says, · ho “ Your sy throne thronos, O ho God theos, is for eis all ho time ai?n ho, · ho and kai the ho scepter rhabdos of ho absolute justice euthut?s is the scepter rhabdos of ho your sy kingdom basileia. - Hebrews 1:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:8&version=NKJV
There is only one true God, the Father. All power given to the logos came from his creator.
You have not heard me in five years, why would you listen now? Dare all you want, you are not interested in any truth that will take you out of your comfort zone.
Keypurr, I assert that it is you that has come to a point where you do not want to listen, and do you know what the Bible cals people who refuse to listen to correction? It calls them "stupid."
No one here, including myself, has said otherwise. Jesus Christ was spirit before he became a man, and had been a spirit for all of eternity past prior to His birth. That includes when He created the universe.
You should worship Jesus as God, or not worship Him at all, for either you worship God, or you worship a being that is not God. There is no in between, and God forbids the worship of anything or anyone other than Him. So either you're sinning, or your worshipping God.
It is the Trinity that has made Jesus Christ as God, not me.
Welcome to the thread friend. I was a Trin for many years.
God declared that this was his Son after the dove brought the logos to Jesus. That is important to realize. The son of a King is not King, he is a Prince. God's son is not God, he is his son.
See my above comments in this post about this topic.
The true son is the express image of the Father, a spirit,not a man. This spirit (logos) entered and dwelled in Jesus. It spoke through the body prepared for it. This spirit had the power of the Father. God created all through it.
