The Timelessness of God

[Nang]

Nothing changed about GOD wanting man to do what He commands.
It's the same He wanted of A&E.
No matter how much the surrounding environment changed (thorns and death and all that calamity going on), GOD wanting man to do His command never changed.

Agreed, but Adam brought death (spiritual non-functionality) upon them, and no one since has been able to please or serve God by faith . . excepting the Man, Jesus Christ. He alone since Adam, has obeyed all God's commands and moral Law . . on behalf of a people chosen to be represented vicariously in Him, by God for redemption, before the foundation of the world.

The thorns and pain of childbirth were not manifested to change A&E's minds or wills, but were calamities brought upon them as righteous punishment (effect) for their sin (cause).

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This has to do with why one would measure time.

You didn't ask me why time was measured, you asked me HOW it was measured.

They WHY may very well be anything but arbitrary but the HOW is.


I agree...

Genesis 1:14 - And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


You cannot even say the words "exists outside of time" without contradicting yourself, as I've already argued in another post. The entire idea is a self-defeating falsehood.

Okay... revving up for the challenge of justifying "God Inside time".

First question... With the assertion that time is a must and God cannot "exist" outside of time...

Is God infinite?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Agreed, but Adam brought death (spiritual non-functionality) upon them, and no one since has been able to please or serve God by faith . . excepting the Man, Jesus Christ. He alone since Adam, has obeyed all God's commands and moral Law . . on behalf of a people chosen in Him by God for redemption, before the foundation of the world.

The thorns and pain of childbirth were not manifested to change A&E's minds or wills, but were calamities brought upon them as righteous punishment (effect) for their sin (cause).

Herein comes the rub...

If the thorns merely serve to punish, then are you insinuating that God created some to be punished in error He knew they'd commit, only to be punished eternally for error they had committed?

Consider Isaiah 64:8

 

[Nang]

So GOD is bound to react to what man does?

Nope. Do not confuse reaction with deserved punishment (effect) caused.

And if thorns and weeds are 'good' and 'order' then why are they gonna be burned up?

God's justice is good and orderly, in whatever fashion or scope it is imposed.

Was the tree of knowledge of good and evil a good tree?

Trees are morally neutral, as is the animal kingdom. Only man was given secondary causal and moral agency (will to obey commands). Only man was created in the image of God and given the conscious revelation of God's pure and holy will. So only man is held responsible and accountable to live holy as God is holy, according to the Holy Law.

And only one Man proved able to meet that criteria . . Jesus Christ . . and He did so as representative for His people God gave Him to live, die and resurrect for, even before creation. Ephesians 1&2

This is the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ and His grace!

 

[Nang]

Herein comes the rub...

If the thorns merely serve to punish,

This is a very sad truth . . all of creation; the innocent animal kingdom and the neutral flora of this planet, experience manifestation of sin and death because of the sin of Adam.

then are you insinuating that God created some to be punished in error He knew they'd commit, only to be punished eternally for error they had committed?

Consider Isaiah 64:8

All sinners commit transgression willfully. Romans 3:10-19

Isaiah 64:8 is the prayer of sinners, who receive the mercy of repentance and faith in the promised Saviour from God's gift of grace.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yes it does
#Agreeable [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]

But only in the framework of a universe bound to time. Foreknowledge implies a specific wisdom and full understanding of the future, which creates a sort of paradox. How can that which is bound to sequence and time... know the future?
#Devil's advocate [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]

Let me get this straight .....

It seems that you are saying that 'BEFORE' and 'AFTER' happen in timelessness as well as time?
Then what is the difference???????????????

Sequence and time are inseparable. You can't have sequence without time.
Does scripture show GOD doing anything that is NOT in sequence?

I thought about this...

First... back to Job... this is my personal conjecture,

Now... allegory time:

Picture a child's bike. I will call this "timelessness".
Now, picture training wheels. I will call this "time".

- Before a child rides a bike, it helps to add training wheels to the bike.

We'll call the combination of "Bike" and "Training Wheels"... "our tangible universe".

- Now... picture the child riding "our tangible universe" for dad.

Dad references "our tangible universe" and assures the child that one day... the "training wheels" will come off.

- One day, the dad feels the child is ready, so he takes the "training wheels" off the "Bike"

No more referencing the "training wheels"... it's as easy as "riding a bike."

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This is a very sad truth . . all of creation; the innocent animal kingdom and the neutral flora of this planet, experience manifestation of sin and death because of the sin of Adam.




All sinners commit transgression willfully. Romans 3:10-19

Isaiah 64:8 is the prayer of sinners, who receive the mercy of repentance and faith in the promised Saviour from God's gift of grace.

You have again implied free will. For, All have sinned and fallen short, but only those who "believe" on Him, will inherit the kingdom.

Belief is an act of freewill response to the Love of God. And believe, I know you do. Have thorns in your life ever led you to a closer relationship to God... perhaps driven you Deeper into His "arms of Love?"

 

[Nang]

You have again implied free will. For, All have sinned and fallen short,

Yes, by willfully serving sin, death, and the devil. But such is not exhibition of "free" wills, but of enslaved wills.

but only those who "believe" on Him, will inherit the kingdom.

Right . . those regenerated and gifted with new life with new hearts and new wills to love and obey the will and word of God, are those who believe on Him. But this faith and repentance is the effectual work of God, in men.

Belief is an act of freewill response to the Love of God.

No, faith to believe is the gift of God; an act of the grace of God. Ephesians 2:8-9

Have thorns in your life ever led you to a closer relationship to God... perhaps driven you Deeper into His "arms of Love?"

Heh . . the thorns produce a conscious need for forgiveness, mercy, grace, and assistance from God to avoid judgment and everlasting death.

So yeah! Adversity is used by God to draw and call many of His people to belief in the Gospel promises.

 

[Tambora]

I thought about this...

First... back to Job... this is my personal conjecture,

Now... allegory time:

Picture a child's bike. I will call this "timelessness".
Now, picture training wheels. I will call this "time".

- Before a child rides a bike, it helps to add training wheels to the bike.

We'll call the combination of "Bike" and "Training Wheels"... "our tangible universe".

- Now... picture the child riding "our tangible universe" for dad.

Dad references "our tangible universe" and assures the child that one day... the "training wheels" will come off.

- One day, the dad feels the child is ready, so he takes the "training wheels" off the "Bike"

No more referencing the "training wheels"... it's as easy as "riding a bike."

I realize that analogies can be iffy, but you do realize that time and timelessness are opposing opposites, right?
Training wheels are not the opposite of a bike, nor do training wheels oppose a bike.
Not to mention that by adding training wheels to the bike, you now no longer have just a bike or just training wheels, but another type vehicle.

You cannot join timelessness with time.

Plus the fact that according to those that hold the timelessness view have already said that creation cannot exist with timelessness, but only with time.

See what I mean?

Come up with an analogy that has two opposing opposites and let's see what that looks like.
Thanks.

 

[Tambora]

This is a very sad truth . . all of creation; the innocent animal kingdom and the neutral flora of this planet, experience manifestation of sin and death because of the sin of Adam.

I find it hard to believe that Adam could have pulled up an onion plant and eat it without it dying.

 

[Nang]

I find it hard to believe that Adam could have pulled up an onion plant and eat it without it dying.

:chuckle:

Adam did not cause death to onions or himself by eating one, but by failing to be a responsible and obedient husbandman, who thereby caused ungodly weeds to choke out the life of the poor plants.

"Death" is a truthful and spiritual reality, that is manifested throughout this material creation.

Why onions die, or horses keel over with colic, is a revelation so deep, we can hardly understand it, let alone desire to probe it.

But none of it would happen except for the original sin of Adam, that triggered a terrible curse and temporal end upon all living things.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I realize that analogies can be iffy, but you do realize that time and timelessness are opposing opposites, right?
Training wheels are not the opposite of a bike, nor do training wheels oppose a bike.
Not to mention that by adding training wheels to the bike, you now no longer have just a bike or just training wheels, but another type vehicle.

You cannot join timelessness with time.

Plus the fact that according to those that hold the timelessness view have already said that creation cannot exist with timelessness, but only with time.

See what I mean?

Come up with an analogy that has two opposing opposites and let's see what that looks like.
Thanks.

You spoke of sequence. You speak of time.
Zinger... question chain on the way.

Has God ever "not existed"?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

:chuckle:

Adam did not cause death to onions or himself by eating one, but by failing to be a responsible and obedient husbandman, who thereby caused ungodly weeds to choke out the life of the poor plants.

"Death" is a truthful and spiritual reality, that is manifested throughout this material creation.

Why onions die, or horses keel over with colic, is a revelation so deep, we can hardly understand it, let alone desire to probe it.

But none of it would happen except for the original sin of Adam, that triggered a terrible curse and temporal end upon all living things.

If God is Just... which He is,
If God is Sincere... which He is,

If God provided initial Choice... which He did. (Two Trees)
If God is Omniscient... which He is.
If Mankind has the propensity to sin, even pre-fall... which it did.

Then that "original sin" would be on God.. which it's not.

If He was just... which He is... He would provide the solution to the impending consequences of our reaching for His knowledge of good and evil (Clearly an act He had ordained as part of His perfect plan)... which He did.

Thus... if our freedom to choose is important enough for God to lay His life down for... what has changed about God?

 

[Tambora]

:chuckle:

Adam did not cause death to onions or himself by eating one, but by failing to be a responsible and obedient husbandman, who thereby caused ungodly weeds to choke out the life of the poor plants.

I was talking about Adam eating an onion plant in the garden before the fall.
Had to have already been some form of death going on before the fall in order to be able to eat an onion plant.
:idunno:

 

[patrick jane]

I was talking about Adam eating an onion plant in the garden before the fall.
Had to have already been some form of death going on before the fall in order to be able to eat an onion plant.
:idunno:

Adam had bad breath

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Adam had bad breath

That explains why EVE handed him the...

 

[Nang]

I was talking about Adam eating an onion plant in the garden before the fall.
Had to have already been some form of death going on before the fall in order to be able to eat an onion plant.
:idunno:

First, there is no account of A&E eating anything other than the forbidden tree, before the fall.


Second, eating a plant that God provides for sustenance to life, hardly signifies the death of the plant. Plants do not "die" due to being eaten, but die due to negative environmental factors or lack of husbandship care.

 

[Nang]

If God is Just... which He is,
If God is Sincere... which He is,

If God provided initial Choice... which He did. (Two Trees)
If God is Omniscient... which He is.
If Mankind has the propensity to sin, even pre-fall... which it did.

Then that "original sin" would be on God

Why?

.. which it's not.

If He was just... which He is... He would provide the solution to the impending consequences of our reaching for His knowledge of good and evil (Clearly an act He had ordained as part of His perfect plan)... which He did.

Wrong. God did not ordain Adam to take of the forbidden fruit (knowledge), but commanded against it. God ordained and warned Adam of the punishment (death Genesis 2:16), if he disobeyed the command to not partake.

Thus... if our freedom to choose is important enough for God to lay His life down for... what has changed about God?

God only gave Adam the choice to obey and not partake of that tree. The holy Law and commands of God surmount any supposed

freedom to eat freely of what has been forbidden.

Morality exists in the Word of God and what He has declared good. What simply looks good and enticing to the eyes of man, is not always so, and the soul who does not listen, believe, and obey God's warnings of what constitutes life and death, dies.

Get it?

 

[Tambora]

First, there is no account of A&E eating anything other than the forbidden tree, before the fall.

I don't see how that is relevant.
On the same day that Adam and the animals were created GOD said Adam and all the animals could eat every plant, and the only exception that came up was the tree of knowledge.
There has to be some form of death in order for Adam or the animals to be able to eat an onion plant.


Genesis 1:29-30 KJV
(29) And God said, Behold, I have given you [Adam] every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
(30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Plants do not "die" due to being eaten, but die due to negative environmental factors or lack of husbandship care.

I'm pretty sure that being uprooted, gnawed to pieces, and swallowed down is a negative environmental factor that will kill it.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Why?



Wrong. God did not ordain Adam to take of the forbidden fruit (knowledge), but commanded against it. God ordained and warned Adam of the punishment (death Genesis 2:16), if he disobeyed the command to not partake.



God only gave Adam the choice to obey and not partake of that tree. The holy Law and commands of God surmount any supposed

freedom to eat freely of what has been forbidden.

Morality exists in the Word of God and what He has declared good. What simply looks good and enticing to the eyes of man, is not always so, and the soul who does not listen, believe, and obey God's warnings of what constitutes life and death, dies.

Get it?

If God knew the fall would occur... which He did.

Why did He provide the "tree" of knowledge?... which He did.

No "tree" of knowledge... no fall... which He did not.