The Timelessness of God

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
So you and the reformists are calling God a liar? Here's the verse (And yes, God is speaking):

Jeremiah 7:31 (NKJV) "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which*is*in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart."

And the parallel verse later in the book:

Jeremiah 32:35 (NKJV) "'And they built the high places of Baal which*are*in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire*to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’"

So who has more authority on this, the Bible? or Loraine Boettner/Jerry Shugart?

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

#Gasp

This is a solid entry of scripture to ponder...

But, I trust you know me fairly well by now [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION]. I can't resist the opportunity to provide counter perception to this.

#Here comes the human conjecture... Though it didn't enter God's Heart or Mind, it doesn't rule out that He knew it. This "could" be God separating Himself from the Heart and mind of freewill beings that interpreted God as a horrible, hateful sadist, that would desire child Saccrifice.

Example...

You and I are in court... You were with me on the day I tortured and killed [MENTION=4980]DFT_Dave[/MENTION]s's pet platypus. In the midst of trial, you assert your innocence by saying:

"I, [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION], had nothing to do with [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]'s horrible destruction of [MENTION=4980]DFT_Dave[/MENTION]'s pet platypus. It was neither in "my" heart, nor neither in "my" mind. I would, that, [MENTION=4980]DFT_Dave[/MENTION]'s platypus was alive today. Circumstances turned out otherwise, but this is my "heartfelt" expression of what happened, as well as the "sincere thoughts of my mind.""
 

Rondonmonson

New member
Those who exist in "time" are constrained by time. They cannot go back in time and they cannot go forward in time. In fact, they cannot even know things which will happen in the future.

In this verse the Scriptures speak of the "foreknowledge" of God:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

It is obvious that God is not constrained by time because He can know things which will happen in the future. Since He is not so constrained then we can know that He exists outside of time so it can be said that He exists in a "timeless" environment.

I believe in like manner to Richard Deem, so I will just post his understanding of this. His site God and Science is a favorite site of mine that I often frequent.

If God Created Everything, Who Created God?
by Rich Deem

Introduction
How did God get here ?
Richard Dawkins, among other atheists, thinks he has the ultimate proof that God doesn't exist. If God created a complex universe, wouldn't it take an even more complex entity to have created God? However, such logic assumes that time has always existed, rather than being merely a construct of this universe.


Who created God? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions. Christianity claims that God has always existed. Is this idea even possible? Does science address such issues?

Christianity's answer
Christianity answers the question of who made God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tell us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)


God exists in timeless eternity
How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.

God exists in multiple dimensions of time
The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimensions of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

Why can't the universe be eternal?
The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempts to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.

What does science say about time?
When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.

Conclusion
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.8 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
#Gasp

This is a solid entry of scripture to ponder...

But, I trust you know me fairly well by now [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION]. I can't resist the opportunity to provide counter perception to this.

#Here comes the human conjecture... Though it didn't enter God's Heart or Mind, it doesn't rule out that He knew it. This "could" be God separating Himself from the Heart and mind of freewill beings that interpreted God as a horrible, hateful sadist, that would desire child Saccrifice.

Example...

You and I are in court... You were with me on the day I tortured and killed [MENTION=4980]DFT_Dave[/MENTION]s's pet platypus. In the midst of trial, you assert your innocence by saying:

"I, [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION], had nothing to do with [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]'s horrible destruction of [MENTION=4980]DFT_Dave[/MENTION]'s pet platypus. It was neither in "my" heart, nor neither in "my" mind. I would, that, [MENTION=4980]DFT_Dave[/MENTION]'s platypus was alive today. Circumstances turned out otherwise, but this is my "heartfelt" expression of what happened, as well as the "sincere thoughts of my mind.""
I completely agree. My point is that, generally, when people (especially Calvinists) see the Bible say that God "foreknew" something, they immediately jump to the conclusion that it must have been predestined (or something similar).

As I said above, God is not dumb. He can plan ahead (as shown by creating the earth in such a way that He could wipe out humanity should they rebel against him). God can plan for the things that 'could' happen.

However, it's not really what I'm addressing here, and the verse (quite specifically) says that such a thing never even occurred to Him, meaning that God could not have known it could happen, even as a possibility.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
I believe in like manner to Richard Deem, so I will just post his understanding of this. His site God and Science is a favorite site of mine that I often frequent.

If God Created Everything, Who Created God?
by Rich Deem

Introduction
How did God get here ?
Richard Dawkins, among other atheists, thinks he has the ultimate proof that God doesn't exist. If God created a complex universe, wouldn't it take an even more complex entity to have created God? However, such logic assumes that time has always existed, rather than being merely a construct of this universe.


Who created God? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions. Christianity claims that God has always existed. Is this idea even possible? Does science address such issues?

Christianity's answer
Christianity answers the question of who made God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tell us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)


God exists in timeless eternity
How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.

God exists in multiple dimensions of time
The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimensions of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

Why can't the universe be eternal?
The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempts to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.

What does science say about time?
When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.

Conclusion
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.8 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

Sooooo... I am going to post a gif in response to this. It is actually my attempt to express appreciation for every word of your post. I don't know you, and this is my first time hearing you speak...

But... in recognition of your posts deep implications and it being worthy of reading and re-reading...

I'm posting a picture from my alltime favorite movie...

200w.gif
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
I completely agree. My point is that, generally, when people (especially Calvinists) see the Bible say that God "foreknew" something, they immediately jump to the conclusion that it must have been predestined (or something similar).

As I said above, God is not dumb. He can plan ahead (as shown by creating the earth in such a way that He could wipe out humanity should they rebel against him). God can plan for the things that 'could' happen.

However, it's not really what I'm addressing here, and the verse (quite specifically) says that such a thing never even occurred to Him, meaning that God could not have known it could happen, even as a possibility.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

As it is obvious,

We have expressed two extremely different ways of understanding this, but...

Both ways focus on emphasizing that God is not a (Richard). So... I'm going to attach a Donnie Darko gif to my reply to your post, because I deeply appreciate your perception of God's very Character... also because the way you have logically argued your point and re-asserted the scriptures that you understand to back up your point, is/are excellent.

200.gif
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
So you and the reformists are calling God a liar? Here's the verse (And yes, God is speaking):

Jeremiah 7:31 (NKJV) "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which*is*in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart."

And the parallel verse later in the book:

Jeremiah 32:35 (NKJV) "'And they built the high places of Baal which*are*in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire*to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’"

So who has more authority on this, the Bible? or Loraine Boettner/Jerry Shugart?

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app
I am going to chime in on this.

It could be that GOD is saying in those verses that commanding them to such a thing is what did not enter His mind.

We know that GOD definantly knew of this happening before Jeremiah's time, because the law came long before Jeremiah's time, and the law told them not to do it. So GOD had already seen it and knew it was happening long before Jeremiah was born.
THE LAW

Deuteronomy 12:31 KJV
(31) Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.​

Also in the LAW


Deuteronomy 17:3 KJV
(3) And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;​


So, we can see that GOD had already seen it happen even before the law was given.


Could these verses not be read as? ......

Jeremiah 19:5 KJV
(5) They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind [to speak or command them to do such a thing]:


Jeremiah 7:31 KJV
(31) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart [to command them to do such a thing].


Jeremiah 32:35 KJV
(35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind [to command them to do such a thing], that they should do [by command] this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.


:think:

:idunno:


Not to mention that if GOD knew every possible scenario that could come up, that would have to be one of them.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I am going to chime in on this.

It could be that GOD is saying in those verses that commanding them to such a thing is what did not enter His mind.

We know that GOD definantly knew of this happening before Jeremiah's time,




Could these verses not be read as? ......

Jeremiah 19:5 KJV
(5) They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind [to speak or command them to do such a thing]:


Jeremiah 7:31 KJV
(31) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart [to command them to do such a thing].


Jeremiah 32:35 KJV
(35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind [to command them to do such a thing], that they should do [by command] this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

I'll chime in too, to agree with you.

These verses do not reveal any ignorance on God's part, but instead, reveal His holiness. God is totally pure and righteous, and there is no darkness in Him at all.

God is not the author of sin . . . God does not tempt man with evil. James 1:13-17
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
I'll chime in too, to agree with you.

These verses do not reveal any ignorance on God's part, but instead, reveal His holiness. God is totally pure and righteous, and there is no darkness in Him at all.

God is not the author of sin . . . God does not tempt man with evil. James 1:13-17

But... zinger...

Why did He "allow" it?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
But... zinger...

Why did He "allow" it?

That is the hardest question of all . .

My personal theodicy is the belief that the wicked destroy themselves; calamity is God's judgement against sin and sinners willfully bring calamity upon themselves.

There will be no wickedness, sin, nor evil in Christ's everlasting Kingdom. We will find all wickedness has been eliminated.

Come quickly, Lord!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So you and the reformists are calling God a liar? Here's the verse (And yes, God is speaking):

Jeremiah 7:31 (NKJV) "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which*is*in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart."

Evidently you are not aware of the many verses where figurative language is used in regard to what God says and His attribues. To explain that, let us look at this verse:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).​

Since the LORD looks at the heart of man (1 Sam.16:7) then He would know for sure whether or not Abraham feared Him. Therefore, He certainly did not need to see any of Abraham's actions in order to know whether he feared Him or not. Therefore, the word "now" in the verse is not to be taken literally.

What is said at Genesis 22:12 is in regard to this figure of speech:

"Antropopatheia; Ascribing to God what belongs to humans and rational beings..." (The Companion Bible; Appendix 6).​

For an illustration of this figure of speech let us look at this verse:

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden"
(Gen.3:6).​

Are you willing to argue that the LORD actually "walks" around?

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
That is the hardest question of all . .

My personal theodicy is the belief that the wicked destroy themselves; calamity is God's judgement against sin and sinners willfully bring calamity upon themselves.

There will be no wickedness, sin, nor evil in Christ's everlasting Kingdom. We will find all wickedness has been eliminated.

Come quickly, Lord!

Something like "Gideon" and the enemy encampment that slaughter themselves?
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber

Right Divider

Body part
So if God wanted to, He could go back and experience again His Son dying on the cross?
God does not "experience" things like a human does (except as Jesus did).

Do you think that God is dumb? That He does not know how His creation will act? That He cannot make predictions on what He knows?
What silly statements! I'm the one saying that God knows all and then YOU ask if I think that He's dumb?

The omni-'s and im-'s (among other things) of pagan Greek philosophy are partially to blame for the idea that God is outside of time.

Omniscience, according to Greek philosophy, means that God knows everything about everyone and everything, that He knows the future. That means, in addition to God knowing the good things, it also means that he knows the bad. It means that God knows exactly how every child that's ever been victimized by a pedophile feels, how long he was wronged, how he was molested.

It also means that God can't forget anything, yet we see in scripture that God forgets sins. The omniscient God of the Bible according to the Greeks is restricted to pagan philosophy.

Yet from a Christian perspective, God's omniscience means that He can know things, and not know things. For example, God did not know what Adam would name the animals in the Garden, God did not know that Adam and Eve would sin (though He did know it was a possibility, and built into the earth a means of punishment should He need it), He didn't know that His own people would kill their own children, and there are many more things that God did not and could not have known.
You are getting incredibly silly with these statements. You are trying to make God like a man.

Do you really think that when God says that He will "remember their sin no more" that He will forget like a man forgets? :nono:

Please feel free to confirm, from the Bible, that "God did not know what Adam would name the animals in the Garden". I'd love to see that.

Your god is weak.
 

Right Divider

Body part
In seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, millenia. Trying to measure it from the beginning is pointless, because "eternal" means there is no beginning and no end.
Precisely, so how does time go back forever. Are you suggesting that it's an attribute of God that is NEVER mentioned in the Bible?

We humans can only measure from one point in time to another. God alone Has crossed an eternity past, but from the point He casts those who reject Him into the Lake of Fire, He will have us to fellowship with.

For the Bible says that God put eternity into our hearts. He made us to be eternal creatures.
Into eternity future, sure. Or are you trying to say that we have also always existed?
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Therefore, the word "now" in the verse is not to be taken literally.
Based on what?
Everything else in the verse was literal.

What on earth would a spiritual 'now' be??????????????


"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden"
(Gen.3:6).​

Are you willing to argue that the LORD actually "walks" around?

Thanks!
Yep. He did the time He visited Abraham and ate with him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Based on what?
Everything else in the verse was literal.

So you think that it was not until Abraham offered up his son that He knew that Abraham feared Him or had a reverence for Him?

I would say that the LORD knew that previously since He knows what is in a man's heart.Also, previously to that Abraham did believe what the LORD said (Gen.15:6).

Do you really think that the LORD, who does not have a physical body,has legs and walks around using those legs?
 
Top