The Serious Consequences of NOT Believing that Jesus Atoned for the Sins of the World
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
I don't know where you got that idea from Pate, but your hatred is fast breeding with confusion. Elohim is not the author of confusion.
Brother Ducky
New member
Please clarify.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I see nobody has addressed this bit of presumptive ignorance.
Robert, God put all things in Jesus's hands.
That included his free will to return home and leave you behind.
Or do you believe everyone had free will but Jesus?
Epoisses
New member
All five-pointers are damned because they reject Christ as the savior of the world. They basically declare that Christ's mission to save a lost world and atone for all sin was a failure. That's like the worst sin you can commit.
Epoisses
New member
You're like the stupid fool that Calvinists keep around to laugh at so they don't feel so bad that they have made shipwreck of their faith.
Is that it? Feeble attempts don't warrant a reply.
Epoisses
New member
True. All men have been reconciled to God in Christ Jesus.
All men have not come to repentance, been converted and grown into maturity like you.
It's not "all", for one thing, it's "pas" from the Greek. This is mostly a repost, but since you missed it before, let's go over it again. Here is one place that "pas" is used:
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil...
The old KJV taught that the “love of money is the root of “all” evil – which, for non-calvinists who chant “all means all”, can make for some sad attempts at explaining why King David committed adultery because he loved money. So do you believe that the love of money is the root of every single evil ever committed?
Acts 2:17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
“Pas” is translated here as “all flesh.” But the context of Acts 2 tells us that while Joel's prophesy was fulfilled, the Spirit was only poured out on believers. Male and female, young and old, but only believers, and not every single individual person.
Why do you believe that the Spirit was poured out every single person, believer and unbeliever alike, at Pentecost?
You have to read the bible in context. Robert Pate still denies the context of Hebrews 2:9:
Heb2:10-16 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS to glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and THOSE WHO ARE BEING SANCTIFIED are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN...“Here am I and the CHILDREN whom God has given Me.”
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the SEED OF ABRAHAM. (See also: Gal3:29.)
He tasted death for all of His family (sons/brothers), for “those who are being sanctified” and for the children of Abraham (John8:39-56 is another helpful text here). A lot of synonyms for "believers."
You can try to prooftext verses like 1Tim2:6 as meaning “every single person,” but v7 clarifies that Paul is speaking to the Jew/Gentile division that persisted in the early Church.
OTOH, the scriptures teach “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us…” Gal3:13 He was made a curse for “us” who believe. But to unbelievers He says, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt25:41 He was not made a curse for them – He did not take away their sin.
Rom8:32-33He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
If God’s Son was given up for “us all” then how shall He not also give “us all” all things, including justification. Does the “us all” here – described as God’s “elect” or “chosen” – refer to believers or everyone? Given the logical argument here and your understanding that Jesus was given up for “every single person in the world,” how can God send away those cursed in Matt25 if Jesus was given up for them?
I believe that 1John2:2 is written to the Jewish church in the 1st century - that is the group to whom John was primarily sent (Gal2:9). But if you’ve read the rest of the NT, you may have noticed that the Christian Jews had a lot of trouble accepting that Jesus also came for the Gentiles, which is why John reminds them that Jesus was not only the propitiation for the sins of the Jews but for the Gentile believers as well. And John repeats the same thing in his gospel:
John11:51-52Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
If you stopped to consider what happens when you sin, even now, you would notice that when you lust after a woman, it's because you (at least briefly) have stopped believing in God; or if you worry about the future, it's because you (at least briefly) have stopped believing that God is your Father. You forget about God and make your desires the priority.
This notion that unbelief is a unique sort of sin that Jesus didn't atone for is a shallow unsupportable Western fable. Paul's unbelief in persecuting the Church was forgiven. Peter's unbelief in denying Christ was forgiven (even before his denial - which makes for an interesting contrast with Judas.) Heck, when Peter shunned the Gentiles to eat with the Jews in Galatia, he was not believing in the Jesus who declared all foods clean in Mark7:19 and again in Acts10.
When a man cried out, "Help my unbelief!” in Mark9:24, his prayer was answered.
You suggest that someone can believe and be forgiven to become one of Jesus' sheep - but Jesus taught the reverse in John10:26-27, that you first need the nature of one of His "sheep" to believe. "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..."
Unbelief is at the core of most sin, but it's not unforgivable. The issue with Calvinism is where does saving belief originate. Calvinists teach that it comes from the transforming work of the Spirit which makes hard hearts soft and teachable. Noncalvinists teach that it's something you choose either randomly, or because you are smart enough, humble enough and spiritual enough through your own self-generated righteousness to recognize the value and truth of Jesus teaching while your unbelieving neighbor rejects it.
God repeatedly demands credit for bringing His chosen ones to Himself. (Acts5:31; Acts11:18; Acts13:48; Acts16:14; John3:21; Phil1:29; Isa55:11)
1Cor3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
It wasn't because of clever teachers like Paul and Apollos. While it's not the primary point of the passage - logically, it couldn't even be due to the "free will" of the hearers. Instead, Paul eagerly gave God ALL the credit for the increase in His Church. John3:3 similarly points to the need for the Spirit to “see” the kingdom – the Pneuma is the One with free will, to “go where He wishes.” John3:8
But if you start with Aristotle's philosophy instead of the Bible, that will cause issues with considering God "unfair" if He really is responsible for the increase in His Church instead of passively waiting and hoping for the best for people to be smart and obedient enough to choose Him on their own. And so we go round and round...
Calvinist?
All foods are clean, but not everything that moves is meant to be food.
Jesus was a Jew and his words can be understood in the Jewish context in which they were spoken or they can be understood in the Gentile context that you promote.
Jesus cleansed humans with his sacrifice of reconciliation, but he didn't cleanse animals. They are as they were in Noah's day, clean and unclean.
I have not been left behind. When Jesus was accepted back into heaven I was accepted in him. I am now spiritually in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6. Not sure about you.
Where are your heavenly places?
A God that only saves some and damns the rest to hell is unjust. This is why we are justified by faith.
You ask some strange questions. Heavenly places are in heaven.
Yes, but where is the Father? Is heaven a place?
Brother Ducky
New member
Jer. 32:17 in the NIV
Epoisses
New member
So if God is absolutely sovereign how did sin happen in the first place? Did he ordain it to happen?