The Sabbath is a What?

[genuineoriginal]

when I say Judeans I mean pre-law of Moses Hebrews (as you called them)

I get the name from the Bible. It is what God called them before giving them the Law.

Exodus 9:1 1 Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.​

 

[Choleric]

but the Bible clearly says the Sabbath was observed by both God, Adam and the Judeans before the Law of Moses was written in a book, before sin even, and according to Paul the Law was added because of sin, Galatians 3:19, until the promised seed came, God's law, God's Sabbath was before the fall, before sin.

Once again, the LAW of sabbath observance is not the same as what Adam did on the first Saturday. The LAW of sabbath observance has no bearing on me, nor did it on Adam, nor on Abraham.

I'm hoping your argument is not that weak you have to resort to ad hominen instead of dealing with the scriptures give in Love

I did, it's in my last post which was edited after the fact.
I'll give you a chance to read it in it's entirety, if you still have any questions after that I do my best to provide the needed passages.

You posted some verses but they do not say what you said. you are attempting to show that the sabbath is still in effect but you have not given any verses to show that. You post a verse and force your interpretation on it. You cannot show any Scripture of someone being stoned for collecting wood on saturday prior to moses.

the parts Moses explained about the Sabbath concern ritual cleanliness, and other laws that were abrogated with the destruction of the Temple that Jesus prophesied over.

The law has not passed, but I am dead to it. Law has no power over a dead man.

As the Bible shows Adam rested on the Sabbath, God rested on the Sabbath, and the Judeans rested on the Sabbath before God gave those instructions to Moses specifically for the sacrificial and cleanliness instructions written in the Law of Moses for the Sabbath and other holy days of observance.

I'd rather not us spin our wheels on this, but you have a chance to look at what scriptures were provided and draw your own conclusion, as I said before if you still have concerns we can proceed with more.

If you want to show that the sabbath is a good idea and it is still sanctified, then fine. If you want to say a Christian is under obligation to observe it as were the Jews, or that the punishment for not doing so applies to the church, you are wrong and have no Scripture to support your position.

 

[jeremysdemo]

when I say Judeans I mean pre-law of Moses Hebrews (as you called them)

I get the name from the Bible. It is what God called them before giving them the Law.

Exodus 9:1 1 Then the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.​

it's funny because the name comes from the appellative "having crossed the Euphrates" Genesis 14:13 and was mostly used when foreign speakers are introduced in the Bible.

unlike the term Israelite, which is the patronymic derived from the ancestor of the people.

While the, "Hebrews" as you call them, being discussed as pre Law of Moses descendents of Abraham are a called Hebrews (one who have crossed the Euphraties) to foreigners like the Pharaoh, they are also idol worshipers before the Law of Moses was given as well, hence the reference to Judeans also later known for that practice.

I'm not ashamed to say, but that is how groups of ancient people are classified, by their religious practices, in this case idolatry, I wouldn't call them Israelite, in the patriarchal sense maybe, but not the spiritual or religious practices, and I wouldn't use the term Hebrews which is pretty general as apposed to one that makes the specific denotation of idolatry that is present in Exodus.

If that offends you I apologize, but these are the terms I am familiar with and their usages which makes it sometimes easier for us to understand one another.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[jeremysdemo]

Once again, the LAW of sabbath observance is not the same as what Adam did on the first Saturday. The LAW of sabbath observance has no bearing on me, nor did it on Adam, nor on Abraham.

that is because they are apples and oranges, one is God's law he and Adam kept the other is the Law of Moses.

God rested, he did not need "the Law of Sabbath observance" as you call it, as Paul said that law was added due to transgression (sin) at this point in human history there was no sin.

You posted some verses but they do not say what you said. you are attempting to show that the sabbath is still in effect but you have not given any verses to show that. You post a verse and force your interpretation on it. You cannot show any Scripture of someone being stoned for collecting wood on saturday prior to moses.

I didn't force any interpretation on it whatsoever, I merely read it for what it says:

here it is again:

it's also interesting to note that the Sabbath was observed before the giving of the Law of Moses at Sinia, Exodus 16:5, 22, 23.

are you denying the Judeans (idol worshipers) rested on the Sabbath before the Law of Moses was written? and worked the other days?

were did interpretation come into that? why are you talking about something in the Law of Moses when we are discussing pre-law of Moses events?

again you doth maketh no sense.

the parts Moses explained about the Sabbath concern ritual cleanliness, and other laws that were abrogated with the destruction of the Temple that Jesus prophesied over.

The law has not passed, but I am dead to it. Law has no power over a dead man.

glad to hear it....

If you want to show that the sabbath is a good idea and it is still sanctified, then fine. If you want to say a Christian is under obligation to observe it as were the Jews, or that the punishment for not doing so applies to the church, you are wrong and have no Scripture to support your position.

it would be wise if you don't assume my position incorrectly.

You've been given the scriptures and what they say, if you disagree with them say so, if not hold your peace.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Ktoyou]

1) It is a Jewish holy-day, by tradition. They used a different calender, it could have been the same as Sunday.

2) God does not hold the calender above man , as God created man, while man created the calender. We could have ended the week on Sunday, and what difference would it make? We even call, Saturday and Sunday, 'the weekend', which day is last, Sunday.

3) God rested in the seventh day, but it was not a named day then. God is saying we should work the week and keep the day after six days holy.

4) God did not teach Adam Hebrew. the name 'sabbath' is culturally constructed. God is concerned we keep one day for worship, not a specific named day, called Saturday, or Sabbath, The commandment is to leave the last day after work, for Him, to honour Him and worship. God would not insist we call it Saturday or sabbath.

5) Traditionally Sunday is not a work day, well it did not used to be, anyway. It is the last day off work, or the only day. If you cannot deal with the arrangement of the calender, that is your problem, not God's problem. God is pleased when we set aside a day to worship Him.

6) Many Christian churches have Saturday night service and some hold services on Saturday, yet that is more a displaced tradition. God did not name the day He rested days; it was the way of work at the time, nor do I believe God expected we rest after six days, yet one may argue well otherwise.

7) Now for a restful reason, we do honor the Jewish holy day, as to why we have Saturdays off work, traditionally, which gives us a nice two-day weekend. Thank the Jews for giving us, especially kids the best day of the week! Even though today, many have to work on both Saturday and Sunday. :sigh:

 

[Doormat]

The day is still sanctified.

For what purpose?

because it is holy. It is a type of the millenium and a type of the rest we have in Christ.

That's correct, so now I'm even more puzzled why you would think the sabbath commandment was abrogated. Not everyone has entered into His rest, so how will they enter it if the specific law that would have led them to it is not kept, willfully violated, and taught to be violated by people who claim to have been led to Christ through the law?

Do you treat what is holy as common?

I esteem all days alike. (Rom 14)

If you believe the seventh day is still sanctified because it is holy, as you claim you do, yet also claim to treat it like common days, it follows you are treating what is holy as common.

The point is that the Jews had turned the sabbath on its' head and made it so that the Jew was a servant to the sabbath while God made the sabbath for man's benefit.

So? Understanding that God made something for your benefit, it makes little sense that you would reject it. By not remembering the sabbath day, working for an employer, forcing people to work for you on the sabbath, one is rejecting what God made for him and keeping others from the blessing.

The object of the sabbath was not the sabbath, but man.

Mankind, not just Israel. Please don't lose sight of that point.

Do you concede that Jesus said the sabbath was made for mankind, not specifically Israel?

The sabbath, yes, the religious observance as laid out by Moses was only for the Jew.

Have you ever benefited from remembering, and resting on, the seventh day sabbath?

You can keep it if you like, as Romans 14 states. you have the choice. Since we agree there is no law to observe it, you are under no obligation.

We don't agree because there is a law to observe it as surely as there is a law against idolatry, murder, adultery, covetousness. The ten commandments are just as valid today against law breakers as they were thousands of years ago. The day is still sanctified. There remains a sabbath rest.

1. Do you believe those who are part of God's nation of Israel today are obligated to keep the seventh day sabbath?

no, they are under an obligation to repent and believe the gospel:

Is your position that it was not a perpetual covenant with Israel, contrary to the scriptures? Because that is what I perceive you are implying. Clarify your position in light of the perpetual covenant, the future sabbaths of Isaiah 66:23, and Paul calling the sabbath a shadow of things to come (future tense).

2. If you were grafted onto the olive tree as Paul claimed, what does that olive tree symbolically represent?

The olive tree is representative of God's blessing.

You are mistaken. The olive tree is Israel. Paul was using the typology from Jeremiah 11:16.

Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

If you are in Christ, and Jesus sprang from Judah and is the King of Israel, they you are necessarily grafted onto Israel. In fact, Israel is Christ, but that must be spiritually discerned.

Exodus 4:22 And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2:15 where [Jesus] stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

 

[Doormat]

And what do you make of the claims of the early church historians Salminius Hermias Sozomenus (c. 400 – c. 450) and Socrates Scholasticus (c. 380 - ?)?

In Sozomenus' Ecclesiastical History (Book VII) he claims:

The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.

He even calls the seventh day "the Sabbath."

In Socrates Scholasticus' Church History (Book V) he claims:

For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.

Scholasticus' history covers the years 305-439.

 

[Doormat]

They used a different calender, it could have been the same as Sunday.

I believe you are mistaken. See:

What Proof Exists That Our Saturday is Still the Original Seventh-day?

 

[genuineoriginal]

it's funny because the name comes from the appellative "having crossed the Euphrates" Genesis 14:13 and was mostly used when foreign speakers are introduced in the Bible.

unlike the term Israelite, which is the patronymic derived from the ancestor of the people.

While the, "Hebrews" as you call them, being discussed as pre Law of Moses descendents of Abraham are a called Hebrews (one who have crossed the Euphraties) to foreigners like the Pharaoh, they are also idol worshipers before the Law of Moses was given as well, hence the reference to Judeans also later known for that practice.

I'm not ashamed to say, but that is how groups of ancient people are classified, by their religious practices, in this case idolatry, I wouldn't call them Israelite, in the patriarchal sense maybe, but not the spiritual or religious practices, and I wouldn't use the term Hebrews which is pretty general as apposed to one that makes the specific denotation of idolatry that is present in Exodus.

If that offends you I apologize, but these are the terms I am familiar with and their usages which makes it sometimes easier for us to understand one another.

keep shinin

jerm

Judean is a patriarchal designation of the decendants of Judah or the inhabitants of the land ruled by the tribe of Judah, which consisted of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah.
It is similar to using Israelites as a designation of the ten tribes inhabiting the land ruled by the ten tribes that were split off during the time of King Rehoboam.

It has nothing to do with idolatry, so your insistance on that as the distinctive identification of Judeans is offensive to me, and should be offensive to you as well.

You are using the word Judean as if it was synonymous with the word idolater.
Judean is not, has never been, and never will be synonymous with idolater.
Judean is, has always been, and always will be synonymous with Jew.

A Jew Is A Judean​

The word-of-God definition for the word “Jew” in the King James Version of the Christian Bible is “Judean”. A Judean was one who was born in the ancient independent and separate kingdom of Judea, a person loyal to the king of Judea, an inhabitant of the kingdom of Judea, and/or one having citizenship rights in the kingdom of Judea.

In the Christian Bible, a Jew, or Judean, is not defined as someone “in the tribe of Judah”. Herod the Great was a Jew, yet his mother was a Nabatean. Paul was a Jew (Acts 22:3), yet he was of the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5). A Jew, or Judean, could have been from any tribe.

The title, that Pilate wrote, which was put on the cross, and which was written in Latin, stated “Iesus Nazarenus rex Iudaeorum” (John 19:19, Latin Vulgate). This translates into English as “Jesus the Nazarene King of the Judeans”.

 

[Choleric]

That's correct, so now I'm even more puzzled why you would think the sabbath commandment was abrogated.

The sabbath that Adam observed was not a commandment. Adam didn't even know he was observing it. God did not say, "rest or die", as the Israelites were told. Adam was given only one commandment and it was not "observe the sabbath", it was "don't eat of this tree"

Not everyone has entered into His rest, so how will they enter it if the specific law that would have led them to it is not kept, willfully violated, and taught to be violated by people who claim to have been led to Christ through the law?

Observing the sabbath will accomplish nothing for Jew or gentile. Paul didn't even mention it when convincing us that all have sinned in Romans 1-3, why would I use it to convince someone they are deserving of judgment?

If you believe the seventh day is still sanctified because it is holy, as you claim you do, yet also claim to treat it like common days, it follows you are treating what is holy as common.

I esteem all days alike. The bible says that is ok. It also says "let no man judge you in regard to any holy day" but here you are judging anyway.

So? Understanding that God made something for your benefit, it makes little sense that you would reject it. By not remembering the sabbath day, working for an employer, forcing people to work for you on the sabbath, one is rejecting what God made for him and keeping others from the blessing.

I esteem all days alike. That is my choice. You are observing days, months years etc, I do not frustrate the Grace of God.

Tell me, what is the first mention of the word "sabbath" in Scripture and what is the context? Who is he speaking to, and what is the instruction?

Mankind, not just Israel. Please don't lose sight of that point.

Tell me, what is the first mention of the word "sabbath" in Scripture and what is the context? Who is he speaking to, and what is the instruction?

Have you ever benefited from remembering, and resting on, the seventh day sabbath?

no

We don't agree because there is a law to observe it as surely as there is a law against idolatry, murder, adultery, covetousness. The ten commandments are just as valid today against law breakers as they were thousands of years ago. The day is still sanctified. There remains a sabbath rest.

You just made that up.

Is your position that it was not a perpetual covenant with Israel, contrary to the scriptures? Because that is what I perceive you are implying. Clarify your position in light of the perpetual covenant, the future sabbaths of Isaiah 66:23, and Paul calling the sabbath a shadow of things to come (future tense).

perpetual covenant with who? Oh, Israel, yes. Not the church.

You are mistaken. The olive tree is Israel. Paul was using the typology from Jeremiah 11:16.

Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

JEsus cursed the fig tree as a prophetic judgment on Israel. Jesus also spoke of the fig tree as a future prophecy of His second coming:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

The fig tree is Israel and as she is again putting forth leaves, we know His coming is near.

If you are in Christ, and Jesus sprang from Judah and is the King of Israel, they you are necessarily grafted onto Israel. In fact, Israel is Christ, but that must be spiritually discerned.

You are attempting to make an end run around the fact that I am dead to the law. no matter how hard you try, the law has no bearing on me as I am dead to it. Read romans 7 if you need a refresher.

Exodus 4:22 And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2:15 where [Jesus] stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

No matter how hard you try, I am not under the law. THe 10 commandments are not for me or any other Christian who has died with Christ. No matter how hard you try to wrest the SCriptures to attempt to put the Body back under bondage, it is not going to change the fact that the Church is not under the law of commandments.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

the "handwriting" is the 10 commandments which God wrote on tablets of stone. That would include all 10, not just 9.

 

[genuineoriginal]

are you denying the Judeans (idol worshipers)

I do not know where you got the idea that the word Judeans means idol worshippers.
Please post a reference, or stop making this anti-semitic claim.

 

[genuineoriginal]

THe 10 commandments are not for me or any other Christian who has died with Christ. No matter how hard you try to wrest the SCriptures to attempt to put the Body back under bondage, it is not going to change the fact that the Church is not under the law of commandments.

Are these commandments for Christians?

Matthew 22:36-40 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

Many Christians believe they are.

Jesus' Great Commandment
Jesus said that to love God supremely is the first and greatest Commandment. (Matthew 22:38) It is first and greatest in that it represents the heartbeat of every one of the Commandments. But while it is the first Commandment, it is not the only one as Jesus quoting from the second of the Ten Commandments also said, “If you love me, keep my Commandments.” John 14:15. He did not say, “If you obey me, then you will love me.” Obedience does not lead to love but love does lead to obedience. The more we know God the more we love him, and the more we love him the more it becomes a delight to serve him and do his will. So if we truly love God, we will keep all the other Commandments as well as the greatest which comprises them all.

So does loving God with all your heart, soul and mind change or abolish any of the Ten Commandments? Not at all. So what is actually taking place in this passage?

It comes about as a result of a lawyer attempting to outsmart Jesus. This does not mean that this so called lawyer practiced law but was one who was learned or skilled in the law of Moses. Mark calls him one of the scribes, which means the same thing.

We see in verse 34 that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, so this lawyer now makes an attempt to trap Jesus by asking Him which is the most important Commandment. Jesus cleverly responds by quoting the Old Testament as He quite frequently does. Here is the full passage in contention.

Matthew 22:34-40 “But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great Commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.”

So Jesus summed up the law by breaking it into the following two groups.

1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. (first four laws)
2. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (last six laws)
3. Since the first four Commandments relate to loving God with all our heart, soul and mind, then clearly they are about our duty and love to God. But that leads to the question; if the first four Commandments are about our love for God then why have so many discarded the fourth Commandment that also defines our love and duty to our Heavenly Father?

So when Jesus said “all the law hang on these two Commandments,” He did not mean some of it as in nine Commandments or none of it as in zero Commandments. When Jesus said all the law, that is exactly what He meant!

As noted earlier, Jesus was quoting the Old Testament. So what was Jesus quoting and when was this first quoted and did it apply to every one of the Ten Commandments then?

The two verses Jesus quoted are listed below and note that Deuteronomy 6:5 is seventeen verses right after the second reading of the Decalogue. So did all the law hang on these two Commandments in the Old Testament? There can be no doubt since Deuteronomy 6:5 immediately follows the second reading of the law. So what Moses is actually saying in Deuteronomy 6:5 is that to love God with all your heart, soul and might is to keep all of what had just been read in Deuteronomy 5:6-21. That is, if we love God supremely, we will keep all the law being all Ten Commandments that had just been read. Deuteronomy means the second reading of the law. God first personally spoke these Ten great laws as found in Exodus 20:2-17 while everyone trembled in fear as God's voice thundered from the mountain top, and Moses did the second reading of the law which is found in Deuteronomy 5:6-21 and thus Deuteronomy 6:5 is just seventeen verses after Deuteronomy 5:21. See also the list of the Ten Commandments.

• Deuteronomy 6:5 “And you shall love the LORD your God with all thine heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”
• Leviticus 19:18 “You shall not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.”

Did you note that all Ten are love for God? The fourth being the Sabbath is also about loving God because Deuteronomy 6:5 says that loving God with all your heart, soul and might is to keep each and every one of the Ten Commandments that had just been read. So in no way does loving God supremely change one single law God wrote in stone.

 

[Doormat]

The sabbath that Adam observed was not a commandment.

Proving it can be kept by someone who is not under a law.

Adam didn't even know he was observing it.

You made that up.

God did not say, "rest or die", as the Israelites were told. Adam was given only one commandment and it was not "observe the sabbath", it was "don't eat of this tree"

When someone imitates God, who did rest on the seventh day according to scripture, why would that person need a commandment telling him to rest on the Sabbath? The point of the commandment is to constrain those who would violate Sabbath.

It's the same with any commandment in the Decalogue. Do you need a law telling you to not murder your brother because if there was no law you would murder your brother? If so, then you are still under the law. If you no longer have the heart of a murderer, then you are not under that law, not subject to it, because your heart is above the idea of breaking it.

Observing the sabbath will accomplish nothing for Jew or gentile.

Then you are implicitly arguing that God made the sabbath for man to accomplish nothing for man. You are becoming more irrational with every post.

Paul didn't even mention it when convincing us that all have sinned in Romans 1-3, why would I use it to convince someone they are deserving of judgment?

If Paul is the author of Hebrews, he certainly did mention the Sabbath: See Hebrews 4:3-10.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The context is clearly the seventh day of the week.

I esteem all days alike. The bible says that is ok. It also says "let no man judge you in regard to any holy day" but here you are judging anyway.

I am judging your poor argument that contradicts many scriptures and common sense as being increasingly irrational. Where have I judged you regarding your not keeping the sabbath? Below I will show you judging me for keeping the sabbath, hypocrite.

My point was that if you claim the day is still sanctified and holy, if you treat it as common you are not treating it as holy. By your admission, you are treating what is holy as common. You given some lame reasons for doing that, but it doesn't change the fact proven by your own words--you are treating what is holy as common.

I esteem all days alike. That is my choice.

Can you choose to murder, commit idolatry, commit adultery, and covet all you want, too?

You are observing days, months years etc, I do not frustrate the Grace of God.

There you are judging me, hypocrite. And I'm not observing days, month, years, etc. Paul wasn't writing to the Galatians about the seveth day sabbath; that's only your faulty assumption.

Tell me, what is the first mention of the word "sabbath" in Scripture and what is the context? Who is he speaking to, and what is the instruction?

You do that. I have given you ample evidence for my position.

Have you ever benefited from remembering, and resting on, the seventh day sabbath?

no

So God did not make the sabbath for Choleric. Is that correct? Because if he made it for you, too, then logically you should have realized a benefit from it.

We don't agree because there is a law to observe it as surely as there is a law against idolatry, murder, adultery, covetousness. The ten commandments are just as valid today against law breakers as they were thousands of years ago. The day is still sanctified. There remains a sabbath rest.

You just made that up.

You are mistaken. First, you have already conceded the day is still sanctified, so... Second, Hebrews 4:3-10 proves there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. Third, the Decalogue is still in operation, proven by Paul's words, e.g. 1 Corinthians 6:9,10. Therefore, it is evident that I have not made it up.

Is your position that it was not a perpetual covenant with Israel, contrary to the scriptures? Because that is what I perceive you are implying. Clarify your position in light of the perpetual covenant, the future sabbaths of Isaiah 66:23, and Paul calling the sabbath a shadow of things to come (future tense).

perpetual covenant with who? Oh, Israel, yes. Not the church.

Look, you have essentially claimed Israel today doesn't have to keep the sabbath commandment. Now you concede it's a perpetual covenant. So does Israel have to keep the sabbath commandment of not? If not, then how is it a perpetual covenant, and why is it mentioned regarding the future, and why were almost all Christians keeping the seventh day sabbath in the fourth and fifth centuries according to two church historians of the era?

JEsus cursed the fig tree as a prophetic judgment on Israel. Jesus also spoke of the fig tree as a future prophecy of His second coming:

Regardless, Paul was referring to Jeremiah 11:16 when he taught Gentiles were grafted onto the Olive Tree (Israel/Christ). You completely ignored my point to make absolutely no point. Find all the symbols of Israel in the Bible if you want, but it will not change the fact that Paul was referring Jeremiah 11:16 and that Israel was/is a type of Christ for the world.

You are attempting to make an end run around the fact that I am dead to the law.

Nope. And I don't believe at this point you even understand what it means to be dead to the law. Paul claimed to "serve the law of God" with his mind, so maybe it's you that need the refresher on Romans 7.

THe 10 commandments are not for me or any other Christian who has died with Christ. No matter how hard you try to wrest the SCriptures to attempt to put the Body back under bondage, it is not going to change the fact that the Church is not under the law of commandments.

Now you accuse me again of something I'm not doing.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

the "handwriting" is the 10 commandments which God wrote on tablets of stone. That would include all 10, not just 9.

You are mistaken. Colossians 2:14 is about the Mosaic ordinances. That's dealing with unintentional transgression, e.g. Leviticus 15:30. It is not about the Decalogue. Paul taught Christians to keep the Decalogue, e.g. Ephesians 6:2.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I do not know where you got the idea that the word Judeans means idol worshippers.
Please post a reference, or stop making this anti-semitic claim.

I really don't know where you get the notion that people from the region of Judaea were Semitic in the first place, semitism didn't arrive on the scene till a thousand years later with the rise of the Pharisees and Rabbinic Judaism.

there is a good summary of an article by Steve Mason here for you to understand the terms better and how they are used by accredited anthropologist, archeologist to speak of groups (not necessarily religious) in and around Judaea around 900-100BC.

there is also more recent archeological evidence that points towards idolatry in this area at the time along with the evidence in the Bible

from article:

Manasseh of Judah (698–642 BCE) and Amon (642–640 BCE) are said to have incited the anger of Yahweh by reviving the worship of idols.

As I said in my first response, I apologize if these terms offended you or made you think of anti-Semitic sentiment, if this happens often perhaps theology is not the best area of study for you.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Lighthouse]

Bob has previously claimed that the failure to insist on the validity of the commandment against adultery has lead us down a slippery slope into the immorality rampant today.

Bob doesn't understand that the slippery slope starts with the failure to insist on the validity of the commandment about the Sabbath day.

Once you start claiming that any of the Ten Commandments is invalid, you have no grounds for claiming that any of the rest are valid.

Against whom is the offense if the Sabbath is not kept holy?

Did Paul not write that the Sabbath was not for us; that we could esteem each day as any other?

Did God not tell Israel the Sabbath was a covenant between them and Himself?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I really don't know where you get the notion that people from the region of Judaea were Semitic in the first place, semitism didn't arrive on the scene till a thousand years later with the rise of the Pharisees and Rabbinic Judaism.

there is a good summary of an article by Steve Mason here for you to understand the terms better and how they are used by accredited anthropologist, archeologist to speak of groups (not necessarily religious) in and around Judaea around 900-100BC.

there is also more recent archeological evidence that points towards idolatry in this area at the time along with the evidence in the Bible

from article:


As I said in my first response, I apologize if these terms offended you or made you think of anti-Semitic sentiment, if this happens often perhaps theology is not the best area of study for you.

keep shinin

jerm

You should look up the term Judean in an encyclopedia to see what the common use of the term means to others.

Judea
Southern division of ancient Palestine successively under Persian, Greek, and Roman rule. It was bounded on the north by Samaria and on the west by the Mediterranan Sea. It succeeded the Hebrew kingdom of Judah, which was destroyed by the Babylonians. The revived kingdom of Judaea was established by the Maccabees, who resisted the suppression of Judaism under foreign rule. Family disputes led to Roman intervention in 63 BC. Under Roman control, Herod (the Great) was made king of Judaea in 37 BC. After Herod's death the country was ruled alternately by his descendants (see Herod Antipas; Herod Agrippa I) and by Roman procurators.

You should also read the articles you link, to see how the term is actually used by people that know what the term means.

Even in lectures I now speak of Paul, Philo, Josephus, and others primarily as “Judeans” and of the practices and beliefs they express as variations on Judean culture.
first link

Paul A Greek-speaking Jew
Philo a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher
Josephus a 1st-century Romano-Jewish historian and hagiographer

You will find that the term Judean is only applied to Jewish people

Such idol worship was a major theme in the chapters of the Old Testament relating to the era, and is given in the holy book as a cause for the downfall of the Jewish kingdom.
second link

And if all that fails, you should at least look it up in Judea for Dummies to see that you are consistently using it in an inaccurate and offensive manner.

Judea
Judea or Judæa (pron.: /dʒuːˈdiː.ə/;[1] from Hebrew: יהודה, Standard Yəhuda Tiberian Yəhûḏāh, Greek: Ἰουδαία, Ioudaía; Latin: Iudaea) is the name of the mountainous southern part of the Land of Israel, roughly corresponding to the southern West Bank. The region is named after the biblical tribe of Judah and associated Kingdom of Judah, which is commonly dated from 934 until 586 BCE. The name of the region continued to be incorporated through the Babylonian conquest, Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman periods as Babylonian Judea, Persian Judea, Hasmonean Judea, and consequently Herodian Judea and Roman Judea, respectively.
Judea for Dummies

Study to show yourself approved, if you want to continue pursuing theology.

 

[jeremysdemo]

Judea
Judea or Judæa (pron.: /dʒuːˈdiː.ə/;[1] from Hebrew: יהודה, Standard Yəhuda Tiberian Yəhûḏāh, Greek: Ἰουδαία, Ioudaía; Latin: Iudaea) is the name of the mountainous southern part of the Land of Israel, roughly corresponding to the southern West Bank. The region is named after the biblical tribe of Judah and associated Kingdom of Judah, which is commonly dated from 934 until 586 BCE. The name of the region continued to be incorporated through the Babylonian conquest, Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman periods as Babylonian Judea, Persian Judea, Hasmonean Judea, and consequently Herodian Judea and Roman Judea, respectively.
Judea for Dummies

Study to show yourself approved, if you want to continue pursuing theology.

as your information so eloquently affirms it is used to describe a region, not a people or their beliefs. :up:

it is named after the tribe of Judah, but does not refer to the people of Judah themselves.

good work.

did it upset you that they found archeological evidence that confirms the Bible stories of idolatry in those areas?
where "Judeans" would have lived in the 2nd Millennium BC, in Judeae.....?

You should also read the articles you link, to see how the term is actually used by people that know what the term means.

I did, did you?

Second (pp. 480-488), Mason goes on to show how some scholars continue to uncritically employ the concept of “religion” in studies of ancient Judean culture. In particular, theories by Shaye Cohen and others that propose a shift in the meaning of Ioudaioi from an originally ethnic-geographic category (i.e. “Judean”) to a religious category (“Jew”) are built on problematic notions regarding the category of “religion”. Mason emphasizes that what we as moderns think of as “religion” was, in fact, not known in antiquity and also intersects or envelopes at least six different categories that were familiar to the ancients (ethnos, cult, philosophy, familial rites of passage, associations, and astrology / magic).

keep shinin

jerm

 

[genuineoriginal]

Against whom is the offense if the Sabbath is not kept holy?

Did Paul not write that the Sabbath was not for us; that we could esteem each day as any other?

Did God not tell Israel the Sabbath was a covenant between them and Himself?

Are we to reject the commandment of God?

Mark 7:9 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.​

Did Paul not write that those who esteem every day alike were not to use their freedom to cause others to stumble?

Romans 14:13 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.​

Are not the doers of the law justified by God, even without the covenant?

Romans 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )​

 

[Doormat]

Would you guys consider having the Judean discussion elsewhere while still contributing to this discussion about the seventh day sabbath? Just the thought of one who appreciates both your participation in this sabbath topic.

 

[jeremysdemo]

Would you guys consider having the Judean discussion elsewhere while still contributing to this discussion about the seventh day sabbath? Just the thought of one who appreciates both your participation in this sabbath topic.

I don't mind tho there really is nothing to discuss further, the articles detailing the often misuse of the term to denote religious groups throughout scholastic history is well documented.

Still it was good to pass the time awaiting Cholerics response to my post on this topic,

keep shinin

jerm