ECT The Purpose of Repentance Beginning With John the Baptist

[jsanford108]

We are still to confess that we are sinners, and to repent, to prepare the way for Jesus Christ to live in our heart.
.”

While I agree with you on repentance being necessary, there is one piece of your argument that is false.

You do not have to be repentant to be "saved."

One need look no further than Paul's own story. He was not repentant on the road to Damascus. He was persecuting Christians, after all. Yet he was saved. And he was saved before he repented.

I think you, and Jerry, have valid points. But I think a middle ground is more accurate to the truth.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[jamie]

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ" (Eph.1:11-12).​

Yes, that's a nice verse, but do you know God's reason for salvation?

 

[jamie]

While I agree with you on repentance being necessary, there is one piece of your argument that is false.

You do not have to be repentant to be "saved."

One need look no further than Paul's own story. He was not repentant on the road to Damascus. He was persecuting Christians, after all. Yet he was saved. And he was saved before he repented.

Paul repented before he received the holy Spirit and was baptized.

No one is saved without God's Spirit.

 

[daqq]

The way that I have been saved through Paul is what was revealed to him by the Master Himself:

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Gal.1:11-12).​

Here is the gospel which was preached to me and the gospel by which I was saved. The same gospel which the Lord Jesus revealed to Paul:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

When Paul uses γραφας twice, in 1Cor 15:3-4, it does not just mean "scripture" but also means "writings", and those writings are most likely the Gospel accounts which he was delivering to all the congregations which he founded; including the congregation at Corinth in this instance. The most likely Gospel account of which he speaks is that which is now called the Gospel of Luke, (but probably also included at least Mark), if not all four canonical Gospel accounts. Indeed, those very same Gospel accounts which you and yours claim do not contain the so-called separate Gospel of Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:3-7
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: [Gal 1:18 - ιστορησαι κηφα] that Messiah died for our sins according to the writings: [Lk 24:26-27, Lk 24:44-47]
4 And that he was buried; [Lk 23:50-54] and that he has been raised the third day according to the writings: [Lk 24:21, 46]
5 And that he appeared to Kepha, moreover to the twelve.
6 Thereafter he appeared to above five hundred brethren at one time, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep.
7 Thereafter he appeared to Yaakob, moreover to all the apostles.

Your entire religio-paradigm-mindset is based on the hyper dispensationist fallacy that Paul taught a different Gospel from what is written in the Gospel accounts containing the all important holy Testimony of the Messiah. Once a person understands that γραφας may simply mean "writings" in this instance, (though the Gospel accounts we do of course consider to be "scripture"), it becomes painfully obvious that one of the primary passages used in support of the Dispensationist MADist position is wholly misunderstood by the adherents of the MADist position. Just because scholarship has not found a "signature" or "autograph" Gospel account, (meaning what they might imagine as an original document), does not mean that Paul did not have one or more Gospel accounts at his disposal; nor does it mean that he was not passing them out to his congregations along with the epistles and letters from himself and the Acts 15 council. Moreover he plainly states in the above passage that what he himself had received, (likely during his fifteen days spent with Kepha mentioned in Gal 1:18), he also had delivered to the Corinthians. Acts 6:1-7 concerns this very thing; for that is no doubt what is meant, that is, the writing down of the twelve concerning all of the events which had happened and which at that time, since Pentecost, had been brought back to memory:

Acts 6:1-7 ASV
1 Now in these days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a murmuring of the Grecian Jews against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 And the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not fit that we should forsake the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Look ye out therefore, brethren, from among you seven men of good report, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will continue stedfastly in prayer, and in the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch;
6 whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands upon them.
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Yeah, you bet the Word of Elohim increased; to the tune of at least two Gospel accounts, if not all four. Likewise, in Codex Bezae, Peter says a strange thing concerning his recounting of the immersion of Cornelius and all his house, which now does not appear in any other text as far as I know; but it reveals that the Holy Spirit had a twofold meaning in those days, that is, not just the Spirit of the Holy One but also the Testimony of Messiah, which was complete when the Master said at Golgotha, "It is Finished".

Acts 11:15-18 Western Text Translation, (Bezae (D)) — "And as I began to speak to them, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. If then [God] gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? that I should not give them the Holy Spirit when they believed on him. And when they heard these things, they held their peace; and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God given repentance unto life."
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/acts_long_02_text.htm

What does he mean by the statement, "that I should not give them the Holy Spirit when they believed on him"?? No doubt he means the written accounts which the congregation at Jerusalem was producing as mentioned in the Acts 6:1-7 passage quoted above. Papyrus and membranas, (lambskins for parchments), were very expensive, and even Paul mentions having membranas-parchements, (2Tim 4:13). What do you suppose was the main purpose concerning all the donations such as mentioned in Acts 4:34-37? That would have been the going forth of the good news Gospel message, the Word, the Testimony of Messiah, both to the Israel and to the world.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

When Paul uses γραφας twice,

Spoiler

in 1Cor 15:3-4, it does not just mean "scripture" but also means "writings", and those writings are most likely the Gospel accounts which he was delivering to all the congregations which he founded; including the congregation at Corinth in this instance. The most likely Gospel account of which he speaks is that which is now called the Gospel of Luke, (but probably also included at least Mark), if not all four canonical Gospel accounts. Indeed, those very same Gospel accounts which you and yours claim do not contain the so-called separate Gospel of Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:3-7
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: [Gal 1:18 - ιστορησαι κηφα] that Messiah died for our sins according to the writings: [Lk 24:26-27, Lk 24:44-47]
4 And that he was buried; [Lk 23:50-54] and that he has been raised the third day according to the writings: [Lk 24:21, 46]
5 And that he appeared to Kepha, moreover to the twelve.
6 Thereafter he appeared to above five hundred brethren at one time, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep.
7 Thereafter he appeared to Yaakob, moreover to all the apostles.

Your entire religio-paradigm-mindset is based on the hyper dispensationist fallacy that Paul taught a different Gospel from what is written in the Gospel accounts containing the all important holy Testimony of the Messiah. Once a person understands that γραφας may simply mean "writings" in this instance, (though the Gospel accounts we do of course consider to be "scripture"), it becomes painfully obvious that one of the primary passages used in support of the Dispensationist MADist position is wholly misunderstood by the adherents of the MADist position. Just because scholarship has not found a "signature" or "autograph" Gospel account, (meaning what they might imagine as an original document), does not mean that Paul did not have one or more Gospel accounts at his disposal; nor does it mean that he was not passing them out to his congregations along with the epistles and letters from himself and the Acts 15 council. Moreover he plainly states in the above passage that what he himself had received, (likely during his fifteen days spent with Kepha mentioned in Gal 1:18), he also had delivered to the Corinthians. Acts 6:1-7 concerns this very thing; for that is no doubt what is meant, that is, the writing down of the twelve concerning all of the events which had happened and which at that time, since Pentecost, had been brought back to memory:

Acts 6:1-7 ASV
1 Now in these days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a murmuring of the Grecian Jews against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 And the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not fit that we should forsake the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Look ye out therefore, brethren, from among you seven men of good report, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will continue stedfastly in prayer, and in the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus a proselyte of Antioch;
6 whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands upon them.
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Yeah, you bet the Word of Elohim increased; to the tune of at least two Gospel accounts, if not all four. Likewise, in Codex Bezae, Peter says a strange thing concerning his recounting of the immersion of Cornelius and all his house, which now does not appear in any other text as far as I know; but it reveals that the Holy Spirit had a twofold meaning in those days, that is, not just the Spirit of the Holy One but also the Testimony of Messiah, which was complete when the Master said at Golgotha, "It is Finished".

Acts 11:15-18 Western Text Translation, (Bezae (D)) — "And as I began to speak to them, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. If then [God] gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? that I should not give them the Holy Spirit when they believed on him. And when they heard these things, they held their peace; and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God given repentance unto life."
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/acts_long_02_text.htm

What does he mean by the statement, "that I should not give them the Holy Spirit when they believed on him"?? No doubt he means the written accounts which the congregation at Jerusalem was producing as mentioned in the Acts 6:1-7 passage quoted above. Papyrus and membranas, (lambskins for parchments), were very expensive, and even Paul mentions having membranas-parchements, (2Tim 4:13). What do you suppose was the main purpose concerning all the donations such as mentioned in Acts 4:34-37? That would have been the going forth of the good news Gospel message, the Word, the Testimony of Messiah, both to the Israel and to the world.

When Daqq "says" something ... it usually means he is actually saying;

I hate when people call Jesus God.
I hate that some people claim Salvational Assurance.
I hate when the Law is marginalized.
I hate Christians that actually believe Christ.
I hate the TRUTH.

 

[Wick Stick]

Repent

Believe

Faith

These are all synonyms, Jerry. Why are you trying to separate them out, and split hairs?

 

[Wick Stick]

When Daqq "says" something ... it usually means he is actually saying;

I hate when people call Jesus God.
I hate that some people claim Salvational Assurance.
I hate when the Law is marginalized.
I hate Christians that actually believe Christ.
I hate the TRUTH.

A fine bit of partisan scholarship, here.

1John 2:11, anyone?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

A fine bit of partisan scholarship, here.

1John 2:11, anyone?

I would hope you know I sincerely Love Daqq. I will not lie to him and I will not acknowledge lies. I am easy to get along with theologically. It's when atonement and Jesus are marred that I speak up.

(Titus 1:11)

 

[daqq]

When Daqq "says" something ... it usually means he is actually saying;

I hate when people call Jesus God.
I hate that some people claim Salvational Assurance.
I hate when the Law is marginalized.
I hate Christians that actually believe Christ.
I hate the TRUTH.

I would hope you know I sincerely Love Daqq. I will not lie to him and I will not acknowledge lies. I am easy to get along with theologically. It's when atonement and Jesus are marred that I speak up.

(Titus 1:11)

You are merely doing what you always do: derailing a thread will personal insults and accusations because you do not like what was said. And when you can tell me who Titon of Makedon truly concerns then you will not need me or anyone else to tell you why you are wrong about Titus 1:11. Neither will you feel it is your duty to silence people anymore; for my brother Titon, when he comes, he will be teaching you like Gideon taught the men of Sukkoth, (thorns and briers from the wilderness, lol). Ah yes, Titon my brother, the comforter, he will set your house in order; and after he has taught you he will comfort your heart, (if indeed you overcome in your appointment and actually become a son, lol).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Repent

Believe

Faith

These are all synonyms, Jerry. Why are you trying to separate them out, and split hairs?

Repenting from a sinful lifestyle is not synonymous with faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When Paul uses γραφας twice, in 1Cor 15:3-4, it does not just mean "scripture" but also means "writings", and those writings are most likely the Gospel accounts which he was delivering to all the congregations which he founded; including the congregation at Corinth in this instance.

No, the gospel spoken of at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is what Paul spoke of here:

"But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).​

He refers to that gospel as "my gospel" here:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (Ro.16:25-26).​

 

[Danoh]

Yo, daqq - good to see you still around stirring up, at the very least; food for thought

It is obvious that 1 Cor. 15's reference "to the Sciptures" at the very least refers to both Luke's account in Luke 24 AND to those passages Luke relates the Lord Himself had obviously pointed to out of the Law; the Prophets; and the Psalms, concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

Though, obviously, Paul's uniquely commissioned use of same.

Case in point; just one example of many from Paul's two letters to those Thessalonians of the many things he had taught them beyond what little Luke relates in Acts 17.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[turbosixx]

Some people on this forum say that in order to be saved one must first repent of their sins. Let us take a look at the following things beginning with John the Baptist and see if that is true or not:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).​

In this instance the Greek word translated "repent" means "to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins": Mt. iii.. 2 ; iv. 17 ; Mk. i. 14" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

At Matthew 3:3 we read of John the Baptist "preparing the way of the Lord" In regard to the kingdom which was at hand. In what way was he preparing the way?

It was necessary for the people to have a change of mind in regard to their sinful life style in order "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74-75).

This does not imply in any way "faith" in the gospel but instead things in the "moral" sphere and not the "spirtual" sphere. Later the Lord Jesus told the Jews exactly how they could be saved and the only requirement which He mentioned was to believe:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

From this we know that according to the Lord and Savior repenting from sins was not a requirement for being saved. According to Him salvation came to the Jews when they believed. We can see the same truth later when we examine His words spoken to the woman who washed His feet with her tears:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

With these things in view we can understand that the Jews were to repent of their sins so that they could serve Him. On the other hand, those who believed were saved.

In order to have a clear understanding of the Bible we must understand the difference between serving Him and being saved by Him. If a Christian's service comes up short he will still be saved, as witnessed by what Paul said here:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1 Cor.3:13-15).​

I would suggest you're not looking at the whole but taking parts, separating them from the whole and making them stand on their own when they really belong together.


Paul says everyone is to repent because we are going to be judged through Christ.
Acts 17:30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Jesus tells those in his body they need to repent or they won't be saved.
Rev. 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

 

[daqq]

Yo, daqq - good to see you still around stirring up, at the very least; food for thought

It is obvious that 1 Cor. 15's reference "to the Sciptures" at the very least refers to both Luke's account in Luke 24 AND to those passages Luke relates the Lord Himself had obviously pointed to out of the Law; the Prophets; and the Psalms, concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

Though, obviously, Paul's uniquely commissioned use of same.

Case in point; just one example of many from Paul's two letters to those Thessalonians of the many things he had taught them beyond what little Luke relates in Acts 17.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Hey Danoh, good to see you too, and I do appreciate your agreement concerning Luke.
But do you quite understand just who Luke is? I did keep it somewhat on-topic with EE.

You are merely doing what you always do: derailing a thread will personal insults and accusations because you do not like what was said. And when you can tell me who Titon of Makedon truly concerns then you will not need me or anyone else to tell you why you are wrong about Titus 1:11. Neither will you feel it is your duty to silence people anymore; for my brother Titon, when he comes, he will be teaching you like Gideon taught the men of Sukkoth, (thorns and briers from the wilderness, lol). Ah yes, Titon my brother, the comforter, he will set your house in order; and after he has taught you he will comfort your heart, (if indeed you overcome in your appointment and actually become a son, lol).

No doubt you know where Luke first enters the discourse in Acts, that is, the vision of Paul at Troas. This is the exact same place he speaks of in the following passage and informs the reader that Titus is in fact the Man of Macedon from his vision:

2 Corinthians 2:12-16 ASV
12 Now when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ, and when a door was opened unto me in the Lord,
13 I had no relief for my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went forth into Macedonia.
14 But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place.
15 For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish;
16 to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

And what is the obvious door that was opened at Troas?

Acts 16:8-12 ASV
8 and passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: There was a man of Macedonia standing, beseeching him, and saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10 And when he had seen the vision, straightway we sought to go forth into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
11 Setting sail therefore from Troas, we made a straight course to Samothrace, and the day following to Neapolis;
12 and from thence to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the first of the district, a Roman colony: and we were in this city tarrying certain days.

See the underlined we in Acts 16:10? As you likely know this is the first place where Leukos, ("the White"), enters the text of the book of Acts. The preceding verses are also clearly what is being referenced as the "door having been opened in the Lord" at Troas, (2Cor 2:12), and that clearly means that Titus is the Man from the vision of Paul at Troas; and elsewhere Paul describes him quite clearly as a "comforter", and elsewhere one of the Messengers of the congregations, (2Cor 8:23 KJV, but αποστολοι, sent ones).

2 Corinthians 7:5-7 ASV
5 For even when we were come into Macedonia our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side; without were fightings, within were fears.
6 Nevertheless he that comforteth the lowly, even God, comforted us by the coming [parousia] of Titus;
7 and not by his coming only, but also by the comfort wherewith he was comforted in you, while he told us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I rejoiced yet more.

2 Corinthians 7:17 ASV
13 Therefore we have been comforted: and in our comfort we joyed the more exceedingly for the joy of Titus, because his spirit hath been refreshed by you all.

2 Corinthians 8:6 ASV
6 Insomuch that we exhorted Titus, that as he had made a beginning before, so he would also complete in you this grace also.

Now, I say, Evil.Eye. does not understand what he reads in the Epistle of Titus because he sees all things according to the eyes and mind of the carnal and natural man. The kingdom of Elohim is within you: and brother Titon of Makedon is coming to set someone's house in order, (lol, but only to those who love Elohim and will truly repent over such spiritual chastening).

2 Corinthians 8:23-24 ASV
23 Whether any inquire about Titus, he is my partner and my fellow-worker to you-ward; or our brethren, they are the messengers of the churches, they are the glory of Christ.
24 Show ye therefore unto them in the face of the churches the proof of your love, and of our glorying on your behalf.

Yes, indeed, some proving time is coming, (and who will prove their love?), and I do fully believe all these words of Paul for just what they say; for I know these things to be true from experience, from my own walk with the Master. And as for the so-called "rapture", which you referenced, I do believe Paul gets it from here: And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned, and no one did put on his headgear: for YHWH had said to Moshe, Say unto bnei Yisrael, You are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of you in the twinkle of an eye and consume you! Therefore now put off your headgear from you; for I know what I am about to do with you! And bnei Yisrael plucked off their headgear from mount Horeb! One just needs to understand that Horeb is of above, (Sinai is of below). :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

The door he is speaking of, daqq, is not some door of perception.

Rather, an opportunity that had been opened up by one of Paul's various co-laborers' preaching, prior to Paul's following afterwards with a visit unto them to help them in their work in the furtherance of the gospel in regions beyond where Christ had thus far been named.

Their work in advance of Paul's later follow up in person had been a recurrent pattern of his, just as had been his recurrent pattern to revisit those assemblies he himself had established.

He relates that to the Corinthians, for example - how that on his way to one of these doors of opportunities to preach and teach that have been opened at Troas by one of his, he plans to stop at Corinth to visit them.

Paul had various co-laborers helping him with various aspects of his ministry.

1 Corinthians 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia. 16:6 And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go. 16:7 For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit. 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost. 16:9 For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

There, he relates both the open door of opportunity to preach at Jerusalem that Pentecost presents, but also; the fact of his enemies at Jerusalem.

Acts 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Acts 19:21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

You'll note he'd also planned to visit those Body members at Rome.

But as he related "there are many adversaries."

Hence...

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Romans 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. 15:22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. 15:23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company. 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

Not only was the guy one busy individual - despite great opposition - but was ever one heck of an organizer of his time; his exit strategy; his next steps; and so on.

So much so that the places he was visiting were either first visited by him with his gospel of Christ; or already set in motion by one his various co-laborers.

Note his recurrent pattern - get a work started, grow them in an understanding of various issues in their mutual faith, then encourage them to do likewise with others.

Though his great disappointment at the Corinthians elsewhere in his writing to them was obvious, he still wrote the following unto them...

2 Corinthians 10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ: 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

Note this again, as he moves on once more...

Romans 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain. 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

He desires to go to Rome to joy with them in their understanding of the gospel of Christ.

He has them on his mind, and covets their prayers.

15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints; 15:32 That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed. 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

That all was...his recurrent pattern.

And given what Rome was back then - the very capital of one absolutely gargantuan Empire, the very hub of people from all over the world - what a door of opportunity the Romans had made use of Rome.

They too had repeated his pattern far and wide.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Put away Aldous Huxley ("Doors of Perception")

 

[Interplanner]

Acts 17:3 is what Jerry needs to see, to stop splintering the NT more than he already has. Paul lists all the things in the package that he meant to list.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I would suggest you're not looking at the whole but taking parts, separating them from the whole and making them stand on their own when they really belong together.

Paul says everyone is to repent because we are going to be judged through Christ.
Acts 17:30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Of course going from a state of unbelief unto a state of belief involves a change of mind. And that is the primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repent": "to change one's mind" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in that sense no one can be saved unless they repent and therefore begin to believe the gospel.

Now a question for you. Do the Scriptures reveal that a person must repent from a sinful life style in order to be saved? If your answer is "yes" then tell me why Paul and those with him only said "believe" in answer to this question?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

if there is something other than believing which is required to be saved then the answer which they gave was in error.

Do you think that they made an error?

 

[turbosixx]

Of course going from a state of unbelief unto a state of belief involves a change of mind. And that is the primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repent": "to change one's mind" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So in that sense no one can be saved unless they repent and therefore begin to believe the gospel.

I think we both agree on that.

Now a question for you. Do the Scriptures reveal that a person must repent from a sinful life style in order to be saved? If your answer is "yes" then tell me why Paul and those with him only said "believe" in answer to this question?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

if there is something other than believing which is required to be saved then the answer which they gave was in error.

Do you think that they made an error?

I don't believe the bible is in error. The bible never says "only" believe" or "all" you have to do is believe. What I would again suggest is that you're not putting all the pieces together but trying to have one piece stand on it's own.

Believe is the word in question here. What do you understand it to mean?



I personally look to the bible to define it.

Heb. 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Heb. 3:17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

The bible says unbelief is sin or disobedience so belief is to obey or not sin willingly. Which would imply repenting of your former life and live for Christ by following his commands.

 

[Interplanner]

"Everyone who has this hope purifies himself..."

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him..."

I Jn 3

 

[daqq]

The door he is speaking of, daqq, is not some door of perception.

Rather, an opportunity that had been opened up by one of Paul's various co-laborers' preaching, prior to Paul's following afterwards with a visit unto them to help them in their work in the furtherance of the gospel in regions beyond where Christ had thus far been named.

Their work in advance of Paul's later follow up in person had been a recurrent pattern of his, just as had been his recurrent pattern to revisit those assemblies he himself had established.

He relates that to the Corinthians, for example - how that on his way to one of these doors of opportunities to preach and teach that have been opened at Troas by one of his, he plans to stop at Corinth to visit them.

Paul had various co-laborers helping him with various aspects of his ministry.

1 Corinthians 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia. 16:6 And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go. 16:7 For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit. 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost. 16:9 For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

There, he relates both the open door of opportunity to preach at Jerusalem that Pentecost presents, but also; the fact of his enemies at Jerusalem.

Acts 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Acts 19:21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.

Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

You'll note he'd also planned to visit those Body members at Rome.

But as he related "there are many adversaries."

Hence...

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Romans 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. 15:22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. 15:23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company. 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

Not only was the guy one busy individual - despite great opposition - but was ever one heck of an organizer of his time; his exit strategy; his next steps; and so on.

So much so that the places he was visiting were either first visited by him with his gospel of Christ; or already set in motion by one his various co-laborers.

Note his recurrent pattern - get a work started, grow them in an understanding of various issues in their mutual faith, then encourage them to do likewise with others.

Though his great disappointment at the Corinthians elsewhere in his writing to them was obvious, he still wrote the following unto them...

2 Corinthians 10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ: 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

Note this again, as he moves on once more...

Romans 15:28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain. 15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

He desires to go to Rome to joy with them in their understanding of the gospel of Christ.

He has them on his mind, and covets their prayers.

15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints; 15:32 That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed. 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

That all was...his recurrent pattern.

And given what Rome was back then - the very capital of one absolutely gargantuan Empire, the very hub of people from all over the world - what a door of opportunity the Romans had made use of Rome.

They too had repeated his pattern far and wide.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Put away Aldous Huxley ("Doors of Perception")

You've removed the statements of Paul from their contexts so as to replace those contexts with your own ideas, and that only serves to hinder your own understanding: one door is closed and one door is opened, and it is clealy by the Lord, by the Holy Spirit, and by way of the vision, just as the plain wording in the passages state.

2 Corinthians 2:12-16 ASV
12 Now when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ, and when a door was opened unto me in the Lord,
13 I had no relief for my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went forth into Macedonia.
14 But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place.
15 For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish;
16 to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

And with two additional verses which were left out of the previous quote:

Acts 16:6-10 ASV
6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden of the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;
7 and when they were come over against Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia; and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not;
8 and passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas.
9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: There was a man of Macedonia standing, beseeching him, and saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10 And when he had seen the vision, straightway we sought to go forth into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

Acts 16:6-7 is partially what Paul is speaking of in 2Cor 2:15-16, when he says, "For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life", (because the Spirit suffered them not to preach the Word in Asia, Acts 16:6-7). Paul is being led by the Spirit which in this case includes the vision wherein he saw Titus, the Man of Macedonia, (whom he saw not in Mysia or Bithynia but in Troas, in the vision). Now therefore your entire understanding of "the circumcision" and "the uncircumcison" is incorrect because you see those things as carnal and physical in meaning, while Paul no longer does, that is, after the Damascus encounter and forty-two months in immersion and having his heart circumcised. Gentiles enter into the faith with uncircumcised hearts, and have a later appointment with the Master, who is now become the Minister of the circumcision, (of the heart, Rom 15:8), and that appointment is an unknown day and hour wherein the heart will be circumcised: and if the chestplate-caul over the heart is a chestplate of iron, (as it usually is by that time, Hos 13:8), it will take a lion, a she-bear robbed of her cubs, a leopard, and a wild beast to tear open that chestplate so that the heart may be brought forth for circumcision. No doubt Zerubbabel himself will bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace! Grace to him! (and so shall you ever be with the Master). :chuckle: