The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[coulter4president]

God had to choose SOME group to become his future priests (nation of holy pepole)

the Roman Catholic Church teaches that we are all, after baptism, Priest, Prophet and King

we just cannot all perform the duties of the ministerial priesthood​

...

 

[beloved57]

Exactly who did Jesus Christ die for ? Was it for every person to ever live, or did died only for the ones the Father had Chosen to save ? Was His mission for coming to make Salvation a possibility for everyone, or was it to actually guarantee the Salvation of the Elect by His death Rom 8:33-34.

This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.

 

[beloved57]

Now in this counsel, God the Father is the Primary Being who purposed Redemption, for it was He who chose who would be saved and redeemded Eph 1:3-11, He foreordained His Son 1 Pet 1:20; Rev 13:8; in time sent Him into the world 1 Jn 4:14, and in doing so, the Father punished Christ for the sins of all those He loved and had chosen Isa 53:6,8,10 and rasised Him from the dead acts 3:26; Rom 10:9, and finally exalted Him to His right hand, and all Acts 2:33;5:31. All this was from Purposed by the Father from Eternity.

 

[beloved57]

Those who Christ did not die for !

People who Christ did not die for and in the place of are going to die in their sins, those sins that broke God's law. All sinners whom Christ did not die for are still responsible to God and held accountable for every sin against Him and His Holiness, because He is their Creator. For the strength of sin is the Law 1Cor 15:56.

However all for whom Christ died for, by His Body, have died once and for all to the Law Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This verse assures all those who Christ died for shall be married to Christ, that is they shall receive a spiritual life that is indicative of having died to the law with Christ. This is not because of their Faith or repentance that they are dead to the Law, but by the Body of Christ. see Gal 2:19

Yes, in the literal body of Christ, though in a mystical way, their surety, they [all for whom Christ died] have suffered the extreme penalty of God's Most Holy Law, and that Law can no more punish them for their sins again, no more than the state can execute the law on a criminal that is already dead.

So all for whom Christ died are dead to the law, secure as a dead man against the Legal vengeance that awaits all those who Christ did not die for, for through His death, we have been delivered from the wrath to come. Rom 5:9 & 1 Thess 1:10

This has absolutely nothing to do with one's believing it or receiving it[The knowledge of it] by Faith, though that will
occur, but solely resting upon the Death or Blood of Christ.

We may sum it like this" The Church, because of her own legal death upon the cross within her Head, she has escaped the dominion of her first husband, the Law, so now in a new resurrected life [regeneration] she may be married to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God..

But those who Christ did not for, they have much to fear in that day, for they are under dominion of the Law.

 

[beloved57]

God the Son and Spirit in the Counsel

As we have stated that God the Father is the Primary Divine Being who Purposed victorious Salvation or Redemption, Now we see that God the Son, the Word made Flesh [Jn 1:1,14] is the Primary Being who Victoriously accomplished Salvation or the Atonement via His Cross. For He willingly took on the Role of Mediator [1Tim 2:5;Phil 2:6-8; 2 Cor 8:9]

Now God the Spirit is the Primary Being who applies victorious redemption. He through His renewing work of the New Birth, convicts the elect world of sin, righteousness and Judgment Jn 16:7-11; 2 Thess 2:13. He shall bring each elect vessel of mercy to belief in the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus. He applies or gives Life unto them Jn 6:63; Jn 3:3-8, and He is given as a pledge of their inheritance Eph 1:14;4:30, and so concurs with the Father and the Son in their distinctive roles and the objects of their Eternal Love. It would be remiss if I did not mention His involvement with the Lord's Birth Matt 1:18;Lk 1:35, His death or offering of Himself Heb 9:14; and His resurrection 1 Pet 3:18; along with His Ministry Lk 4:14

So Salvation is made Certain to All for Whom Christ died, by the Work of the Spirit, this is victorious redemption or salvation..

 

[coulter4president]

Exactly who did Jesus Christ die for ? Was it for every person to ever live, or did died only for the ones the Father had Chosen to save ? Was His mission for coming to make Salvation a possibility for everyone, ore was it to actually guarantee the Salvation of the Elect by His death Rom 8:33-34.

This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.

frankly I am bored w/ intellectual conversations about the details of Jesus...

it seems the more we talk about HIm and intellectualize about what He said and etc.. it just tends to distance us from who He really is and how we need to wrok on gettin closer to Him...

Once i fond His Presence in the Catholic Church, i lost all desire to intellectualize and "search" for ... whatever.. i found Him..

and that's where anyone can find Him.. tangibly...

in other words, He is totally there... not just in some mental way...

I live in an area where most people dont spend much time w/ Jesus in the Real Presenc... and even if i didn't know this area... say i was new to the area... i would be able to tell by the way people act... its basically OSAS City... ppl commit sins against their neighbors bcus... they figure they are saved no matter what they do... (I'm generalizing)...

its creepy...

so i try to go to Mass as often as possible... socialize w/ ppl who dont believe in that illogical stuff...

anyhow... i kinda 4got the original point... just like me...

Oh, about intellectualizing Jesus...

Once you know someone you dont want to intellectualize the person's ... well, anything about the person...

And when that Person Loves you u/conditionally... well... you are that much less inclined to give a rip about intellectualizing...

 

[coulter4president]

i guess others agree..

no one is arguing

 

[godrulz]

i guess others agree..

no one is arguing

Talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion.

 

[coulter4president]

Talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Talk about jumping to the wrong conclusion that someone is jumping to the wrong conclusion

 

[beloved57]

coul:

frankly I am bored w/ intellectual conversations about the details of Jesus...

Who cares what you are bored with ?

 

[beloved57]

Christ died for our sins according to scripture !

1 Cor 15:3-4

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This means old testament types serve as an enlightenment on the extent and efficacy of Christ atoning death.

Remember what Paul wrote 1 Tim 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correctionn, for instruction in righteousness:

We will be looking at from scripture the doctrine of atonement.

Lets look at Noah's Ark, a type of Christ. 1 Pet 3:20-21

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


No doubt this is a clear and unmistakable reference to Noah and the Ark passing through the judgmental flood in connection with the atoning death and justifying resurrection of Jesus Christ. The pattern of the Ark was given to Noah in minute detail by the Sovereign LORD (Gen. 6:14-16). Now the question is, was the ark adequate in size to allow for all who were living on the earth at that time? We all surely know the answer to that.

It was not God's purpose to save all of Mankind in the Ark, but only Noah and his family, and seeing there is no negligible quantity in The LORD, all the room and sufficiency sovereignly fitted in the ark for flood survival was fully put to use. Noah was "a preacher of righteousness," and while the ark was "a preparing," Noah preached Christ by emblem and sermon; for to preach righteousness is to preach Christ, for He is the believer’s justifying righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor.5:21).

No doubt during this long period of one hundred and twenty years of Ark building, Noah admonished others as he was warned of God (Heb 11:7). However, only seven believed his report and they were of his own house (Gen 7:1). Then God brought judgment upon the world of the ungodly and they perished in the flood (2 Pet 2:5). The Noachian household is a type of the household of God (Eph 2:19), and Christ, the anti type of the Ark (Acts 4:12) and Head "over His own house" (Heb. 3:6), has made adequate room for His family and none else. Christ is the Sovereign who having eternally loved His progeny, He made room for them and them alone in ark of His mercy and grace. The Ark as a type was not given to us in abbreviated fashion, but in minute thoroughness, and every detail points to Christ.

Atonement sufficiency is founded in God’s forelove, and Christ loves only those who were given to Him by the Father in the covenant of redemption (Jer 31:3 ; John 13:1 , 17:6 ; Rom. 8:37). In the redemptive design there is no such thing as uncovenanted love, and hence no universal atonement sufficiency.

The Ark was a divine arrangement made before the waters of judgment fell from heaven, and in building the Ark, Noah followed the Divine specifications with exactitude. "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him,’ so did he" (Gen. 6:22). There was not one extra cubic inch in the completion of the Ark, nor was there any wasted space. The sufficiency of the Ark was according to God’s purpose, and His elective purpose was to save only eight souls from the flood (1 Pet 3:20).

In like manner, Jesus Christ was furnished by God before the foundation of the world to deliver His people from the storm of judgment of the wrath to come (1 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 1:10). Christ’s mission to this earth, as was the Ark, was according in every detail to the necessity of His people, and not one thing wrought by the atoning death of Christ was extended beyond those for whom He died. The sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s offering was eternally concluded to the elect of God, and there was no redemptive sufficiency for the rest. The purpose of atoning sufficiency must be determined by its achievement, and it has none beyond "the Church of God, and the sheep of His hand." (Acts 20:28; Ps 95:7).

This Type is especially instructive since The Lord compares the time of His return with that of the days of Noah, Matt 24:37-38

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 

[beloved57]

Matt 1:21

New Testament Testimony is as vital as OT types as to understanding whom Christ died for. I just showed from OT Type, the Ark, that God designed the Salvation of a few People through the Ark which typified Christ. 1 Pet 3:20

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jesus says in General about how many are going to be saved Luke 13:22-24

22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Now notice how Matthew writes this response of Christ Matt 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Christ knew the extent of those He would be saving. In Looking at the New Testament we see no less than in the types of the Old, a specific design and purpose declared in the birth and death of Christ. The Angel declares to Joseph Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Here is a special purpose announced in regards to Christ coming into the world, namely that He should be manifested as a Saviour; For He shall save His People from their sins. Here is a special people [ the foreknown Rom 8:29;11:2] the antitype of National Israel, a People He already knew as His, as His Sheep John 10:14,16, that are to be saved, and a special salvation with which they are to be saved, and so there is nothing in these words that warrant us the notion of a general salvation opportunity for all, which is no salvation unless persons make it so by delivering themselves by their own freewill from their sins; But on the contrary, everything is stated to be positive, He shall save His People, and shall save them from their sins [ Because they are sinners], and His name is Jesus or Saviour, because He shall save His special People with a Special Salvation. God told the Antitypical People this Deut 7:6

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

These are those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

None can be Special to God outside of Christ. Now if we were to take the Angel, the Heavenly Messenger at His word, we would know the extent of Christ death and mission into the world, and who He came to save from their sins. It was a specific people, not everyone without exception !

 

[beloved57]

One of many Blasphemies !

Rev 13:1

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 17:3

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The Teaching that Jesus Christ died for all mankind without exception, and yet many of them are in hell, or are on their way there, that He died for, is Blasphemy. It is Blasphemy against the Entire Godhead, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I don't believe there is a more insulting teaching against God in all the world than this Blasphemy. It also is perhaps the Most Popular Teaching worldwide.

What I am speaking of, is that teaching which teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ actually died to make salvation only possible for all mankind.

He is taught to have shed His blood to only make His Salvation possible, and it did not make certain or ensure the Salvation of any. So the shedding of the Blood of Christ did not ensure no ones Salvation !

The ramifications of such an insult against the blood of atonement is huge and many. The Primary consequence of this impiety is that it designates man as his own Saviour, his own Redeemer !

They are Saved or Redeemed ultimately not by what the Blood did or accomplished, but what they did. Thats a Blasphemy !

 

[beloved57]

This blasphemy of The Lord Jesus Christ merely making Salvation possible for all Mankind, Means that ultimately, that men are not saved By the Obedience of One as the Gospel declares in Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, to be made Righteous before God is being saved ! How cometh this being made Righteous, by the obedience [Death of Christ] of One or Two ? If Christ death alone does not constitute the Ones He died for Saved or Righteous, then it must be by the obedience of two, which is contrary to this scripture, which is the Word of God ! Thats a Blasphemy !

 

[beloved57]

Who are the US ?

Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Paul wrote, that "Christ died for our sins according to the scripture "

This no doubt is one of the many OT scriptures that shows us exactly who the us and our sins belongs !

Now who are the US in the Isa passage ? I am certain we know who the Child is to be born, the Son to be given . Its Christ. And it has to do with His coming to die for sins.

But again, who are the US ? Is it the whole world without exception ? Is that who Isaiah meant ? Or does He mean a specific People ? I contend that it's to a specific people. Isaiah is writing to the Israelites, the Chosen People of God, he is not writing the egyptians, or the assyrians, the babylonians, but the Chosen Covenant People of God. In fact, when Christ was actually born, the spiritual minded recognized that Christ coming, birth, was in relation to a Covenant Promise. Lk 1:67-73

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

So, also the Us in Isa 9:6 is the Seed of Abraham !

The Israelites of the OT were a Type, a Picture of Spiritual Israel. Now Spiritual Israel is in existence today as it was then, difference being, that Spiritual Israel then was mainly comprised of the physical descendants of Abraham of National Israel, not so today. I believe everyone Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4, the Spiritual seed of Abraham Gal 3:16 belongs to Spiritual Israel, and all these have been Chosen to Life Eternal. Without question I believe it is the Spiritual Israelites that is meant in the US in our verse Isa 9:6. Christ is born unto all whom He is born into Col 1:27;Gal 4:19.

The US is also the Church, Isa was writing to the OT Church, that is those Spiritual Israelites that for the most part resided in that Nation at that time, but it is also applicable to the NT Church at this present time. Eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

[beloved57]

A Union when Christ died !

Eph 5:25-32

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

If understood properly, Paul is stating that Christ was in Union, was One with His Church, when He died or gave Himself for Her, just as a Husband is One and in Union with His wife. Paul points that out in vs 32, it was a Mystery, and a Mystery of the Gospel See Eph 6:19

Now when eve transgressed, was she not already one with Adam ? If so, Christ was also One with His Church when He gave Himself for Her, or else there is no corresponding analogy in the one to the other, but Paul indicates that it was. If Christ gave Himself for the Church vs 25, His betrothed Bride, then evidently it was His Church before He gave Himself for it, which means He was in Union with sinners before He died for them, those sinners that composed His Church. Now ask yourself this question, were all sinners in the world without exception composed of His Church ? No.

 

[beloved57]

John 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

In John 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediatorial Prayer, makes Intercession, not for everyone without exception, but only for those given to Him see Jn 6:37 also, which points back to His Sheep Jn 10:29

29 My Father, which gave them[The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

In addition such statements as Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

All these prove without a shadow of doubt the Limited intention of Christ's Death, and the limited objects of His Love !

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

John 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

In John 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediatoral Prayer, makes Intercession, not for everyone without exception, but only for those given to Him see Jn 6:37 also, which points back to His Sheep Jn 10:29

29My Father, which gave them[The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

In addition such statements as Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

All these prove without a shadow of doubt the Limited intention of Christ's Death, and the limited objects of His Love !

I see your still up to your old "shenanigans," "Savedbygrace57..." I mean "beloved57" excuse me...

 

[tudorturtl]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

He died for the sins of the whole world, but only saves those who "choose" to believe, because if we don't believe in him we can not Love him. and now we obey him,not to seem righteous before men, but because we love him. To see his righteousness is to realize my own sin and repent.
was it not the thief on the cross, to whom he promised paradise?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

He died for the sins of the whole world, but only saves those who "choose" to believe, because if we don't believe in him we can not Love him. and now we obey him,not to seem righteous before men, but because we love him. To see his righteousness is to realize my own sin and repent.
was it not the thief on the cross, to whom he promised paradise?

Finally someone else who speaks truth...Amen...