The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[godrulz]

oatmeal



No they have not, or Jesus would be lying when He said this Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

How can that be if their sins have been paid for ?

Payment is a metaphor, not a literalism. If the atonement was a literal payment/commercial transaction, universalism would be true.

Limited atonement is not the way to go to avoid universalism.

The issue is resolved by distinguishing grounds and conditions of salvation. Your denial of genuine free will and a wrong view of sovereignty is the problem. There is a Godward and manward element in reconciliation (objective provision of grace must be subjectively appropriated...receive vs reject free gift).

 

[beloved57]

gr

The issue is resolved by distinguishing grounds and conditions of salvation

Thats easy, That is the Death of Christ. He saves all for whom He died !

 

[godrulz]

gr



Thats easy, That is the Death of Christ. He saves all for whom He died !

The grounds of salvation (reason for/by which saved) are grace and the person and work of Christ (we agree).

The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentant faith/continuance in the faith.

Your view limits the love of God and makes Him arbitrary, saving some, but damning others that He could save if He wanted to (cf. Satan who wants all damned vs some damned).

 

[beloved57]

gr

The grounds of salvation

Thats easy, That is the Death of Christ. He saves all for whom He died !

 

[beloved57]

gr

There is a Godward and manward element in reconciliation (objective provision of grace must be subjectively appropriated...receive vs reject free gift).

I discuss both objective and subjective reconciliation here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86278

 

[beloved57]

A Covenant Death

That Christ came into the world to die a Covenantal Death for a specific people due to a Eternal Covenant established before the World began, this is seen in that He came to take on not all humanity without exception, but particularly the Seed of Abraham ,an Elect People Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. See Gal 3:29 !

He came to identify with their human nature, and not with that of all mankind without exception. Also this is not to be construed with Abraham's physical seed of the flesh for Two reasons #1. They were not the Elect of God or Chosen of God, which is seen here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The rest of Israel National whom were not of the Election, were not Elect, simple enough !

Also seen here with Jesus statement Matt 22:14

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many were Abraham's Physical Seed called into National assembly, but few of them were God's Chosen !

#2 That Abraham's seed according to the flesh , that Israel, they were not the Children of God Rom 9:8

8 That is, They[Abraham's Seed] which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But yet the Children of Abraham that Christ Identified with in Heb 2:16 were the Children of God Heb 2:13-14 and the Children of Promise Rom 9:8b; Gal 3:29 !

So Christ in His Covenantal Death, came to Identify with, not all humanity without exception, but with the Children of God [Seed of Abraham] scattered throughout all humanity Jn 11:52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Simply put, He came to die for the Children of God ! And by doing so, He makes them manifested, as to who they are 1 Jn 3:8-10

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[beloved57]

obeying the truth through the Spirit !

obeying the truth through the Spirit !

wrong thread

 

[beloved57]

Heb 2:9

We know that Christ did not die for every man in the world without exception here in Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste[experience] death for every man.

simply because, by Him tasting Death or those He tasted it for, that Death also being His Offering by the Will of God Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This Offering of the Body of Christ is synonymous with the Tasting of Death in Heb 2:9 which resulted in them having been once and for all sanctified or set apart unto Eternal Glory [Heb 2:10] and in addition to that, by that same Tasting of Death or Offering of His Body, He has Perfected them forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Which are those in Vs 10 that have been sanctified by His Death and by the Father Jude 1:1 !

So if Heb 2:9 were to mean that Jesus Christ tasted Death for [in behalf of] all men without exception as false teachers lie to us about, then all men without exception have been permanently set apart unto the Glory and Perfected before the Law and Justice forever, which would lead us to the heresy of Universalism, or Heb 10:10-14 are all lies !

 

[Ps82]

Hi beloved57

You wrote:

We know that Christ did not die for every man in the world without exception here in Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste[experience] death for every man.

I agree in part. Saying that he died for all men sometimes make people think that all men are saved. Not so. The work of Christ was to "provide the WAY" for all men who will to follow him into the kingdom. Mankind still has a freewill to reject "The WAY."

You wrote:

..., by Him tasting Death or those He tasted it for, that Death also being His Offering by the Will of God Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Experiencing death was part of the process that Christ had to experience in order to provide "The WAY" for mankind to follow him.
So to speak: He was the anti-venom that mankind needed in order to cure our snake bitten mortal-body condition. With his resurrection and appearing in a human body that was finally super-natural as well, we see the evidence that he conquered physical death for mankind.

You wrote:

This Offering of the Body of Christ is synonymous with the Tasting of Death in Heb 2:9 which resulted in them having been once and for all sanctified or set apart unto Eternal Glory [Heb 2:10] and in addition o that, by that same Tasting of Death or Offering of His Body, He has Perfected them forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So well said.

You wrote:

So if Heb 2:9 were to mean that Jesus Christ tasted Death for [in behalf of] all men without exception as false teachers lie to us about, then all men without exception have been permanently set apart unto the Glory and Perfected before the Law and Justice forever, which would lead us to the heresy of Universalism, or Heb 10:10-14 are all lies !

I also see things this way. Nice post.

 

[Epoisses]

We know that Christ did not die for every man in the world without exception here in Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste[experience] death for every man.

simply because, by Him tasting Death or those He tasted it for, that Death also being His Offering by the Will of God Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This Offering of the Body of Christ is synonymous with the Tasting of Death in Heb 2:9 which resulted in them having been once and for all sanctified or set apart unto Eternal Glory [Heb 2:10] and in addition o that, by that same Tasting of Death or Offering of His Body, He has Perfected them forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Which are those in Vs 10 that have been sanctified by His Death and by the Father Jude 1:1 !

So if Heb 2:9 were to mean that Jesus Christ tasted Death for [in behalf of] all men without exception as false teachers lie to us about, then all men without exception have been permanently set apart unto the Glory and Perfected before the Law and Justice forever, which would lead us to the heresy of Universalism, or Heb 10:10-14 are all lies !

Yes Heb. 2:9 along with John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 all speak to Christ's work on the cross as being universal in nature. This is not the same as universalism. Universalism teaches that all were saved at the cross and all will be in heaven.

The bible teaches that all were saved 'in Christ' at the cross. Then this finished salvation is offered to every person via the Holy Spirit as a free gift which can be accepted or refused. The belief that Jesus only dies for and saves certain people is the real myth.

 

[Epoisses]

I agree in part. Saying that he died for all men sometimes make people think that all men are saved. Not so. The work of Christ was to "provide the WAY" for all men who will to follow him into the kingdom. Mankind still has a freewill to reject "The WAY."

The belief that Jesus merely provides a provision or way of salvation for all men is Arminianism and also a perversion of the gospel. Sinners cannot save themselves so if we are to be saved at all it is 100% the work of Christ on behalf of fallen man. This belief leads to legalism where God does some of the saving and man does the rest. We contribute nothing towards our salvation, even faith is just a realization that we contribute nothing.

 

[godrulz]

If u r not Calvinist nor Arminian, what r u?

 

[beloved57]

epo

Yes Heb. 2:9 along with John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 all speak to Christ's work on the cross as being universal in nature.

Yes for His Sheep ! If He died for all without exception, then would they all without exception be perfected forever as I have demonstrated, and we come into the other heresy of Universalism !

 

[beloved57]

ps 82

Saying that he died for all men sometimes make people think that all men are saved.

Which would be the case since His Death saves all for whom He died ! As I showed from scripture, His Death both sancifies and perfects forever those He died for ! Are yiu an Universalist ?

 

[Epoisses]

If u r not Calvinist nor Arminian, what r u?

Pauline.

 

[Epoisses]

epo



Yes for His Sheep ! If He died for all without exception, then would they all without exception be perfected forever as I have demonstrated, and we come into the other heresy of Universalism !

Then you reject Heb. 2:9, John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 which emphatically say that all were saved at the cross. They do not say that all will be in heaven as universalism teaches.

 

[Ps82]

ps 82



Which would be the case since His Death saves all for whom He died ! As I showed from scripture, His Death both sancifies and perfects forever those He died for ! Are yiu an Universalist ?

A good deal of scripture is dedicated to the men who die, face judgement, and experience the second death described in Revelation along with Satan ... etc.

To say that "all men are saved" is a denial of revelation.

I conclude that not ALL men are saved ... I conclude that there are those whom are called by the Father, who have a choice to accept the "gift" that God has provided to make the way for their salvation or reject it.

I do not consider this freewill choice a "work" that man does to save himself. Man can not perform any works that could save himself. I believe that only God can save anyone. However, I do see it as a person's choice to reject the work of Christ and to also deny Christ the glory that would come from their salvation.

Without looking up quotes at the time scripture does tell us something like this: If you reject the Son then you have rejected the Father... and if you reject the Son then you will be rejected by the Father.

This is our choice.
Adam and Woman rejected the Father when they listened to Satan and chose his WAY to make themselves wise and as glorious as the angels... since that time, we have had the promise of ONE who would be able to undo what Adam had done. Now each of us do not have to die for the sin of the "one man Adam," because we have the "one man Christ" to fix things for those who chose him instead.

The way to undo our "fallen" situation is to accept Christ's way to reverse the consequences of Adam's having previously accepted "that ole Serpent's way." We owe all the glory and honor to him for what he has done for us.

 

[godrulz]

Pauline.

Calvinists and Arminians would both claim to be Pauline. The question is whether Pauline theology is more CalvinistIC/deterministic or Arminian/free will theism. Molinism and Open Theism are also options with a model of providence.

We all claim to be biblical, Pauline, but this does not mean theological systems are not biblical or unbiblical.

You would generally fit under an umbrella of some sort (a spectrum and nuanced beliefs within major systems).

 

[godrulz]

Then you reject Heb. 2:9, John 3:17, Rom. 5:18 and 1John 2:2 which emphatically say that all were saved at the cross. They do not say that all will be in heaven as universalism teaches.

These verses do not say that all were saved (past tense) at the cross. The objective provision of the finished work of the cross is intended for and sufficient for all, but it is only efficacious, appropriated subjectively by some.

Your wording is universalistic, so you need to qualify/clarify.

Beloved's TULIP/limited atonement is wrong, to be sure.

 

[Epoisses]

Calvinists and Arminians would both claim to be Pauline. The question is whether Pauline theology is more CalvinistIC/deterministic or Arminian/free will theism. Molinism and Open Theism are also options with a model of providence.

We all claim to be biblical, Pauline, but this does not mean theological systems are not biblical or unbiblical.

You would generally fit under an umbrella of some sort (a spectrum and nuanced beliefs within major systems).

I share beliefs from both camps. I agree with the calvinistic understanding that eveything was completed at the cross and what we receive from Christ is a finished work, where I disagree of course is that they see this as only applying to the elect or believers.

I agree with the arminian understanding that Christ's sacrifice extended to the whole world not just the elect but disagree that they only see it as a provision which is not complete until we believe.