The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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Ardima
New member
Universal Reconciliation does not pit God's Love against His holiness/justice. I do not deny thay God is Holy, Love, or Just; however, I do deny that God's Holiness and Justice are seperate from His Love. Those who believe Universal Reconciliation believe that God's Justice comes from His love and Holiness. I believe that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ in this age will Go through terrible judgement, but judgement is never passed as an ending, it is passed as a means to reconcile the judged. God, who is holy, just, and love, will not punish someone outside of time for sins committed inside of time. That is neither loving nor just. When time ceases to exist so will all judgement and rewards.
And for the record, Universalism is totaly different than universal reconciliation. In the case of Universalism, you are right, it is heretical.
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beloved57
Well-known member
God is only interested in His own elect not perishing, the rest of mankind He created them to perish for their sins, they are vessels of wrath..
You represent hyper-Calvinism.
The rest of us represent biblical truth.
Your view of God is flawed. Go away.
Ardima
New member
Let me ask you some questions. Who did Jesus Christ die for? Are you saying that he did not die for all men? are you saying that our human will to reject Christ overpowers the work that Jesus did on the cross? are you saying that a loving God who's will is that none should perish can be thwarted by the rejection of humans incapable of choosing God in the first place?
(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.
(John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Are you calling God and Jesus a lier?
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beloved57
Well-known member
The Negative consequences !
The Negative consequences that dishonor God, if Christ death does not actually save all for whom Christ died ! If the unscriptural man made doctrine that Christ died for all without exception is true it:
1. Reflects poorly on the Wisdom of God in that He purposed for all mens salvation and was disappointed in that purpose, which does not say much for Christ being the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Cor 2:2-7
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2. It reflects poorly on the Justice of God, in fact it denotes Him as being unjust, to Christ and to those Christ died for [1 Cor 15:3] Because He did not discharge them, even though all their sins and transgressions were answered for by their Surety, or it would seem that the death of their Surety was enough to make a full forgiveness of sins for them.
3. This gives sinners reason to boast, for it appears that all the efficacy and success of all that Christ has accomplished has been put on hold until something is done by the sinner, something obviously Christ did not do, and so sinners become a principal in procuring their own Salvation or deliverance. Now men may fool themselves with their false humility, stating that there is nothing meritorious about accepting a gift, but the honest Truth is, if that is what made the difference in the eternal affair of being saved or Lost, then it may be accounted to their decision, their wisdom or prudence which made the difference and not Christ. They also can always feel better about themselves than their neighbor who may be lost for not being as wise as they were, which is a secret boast before God.
The Negative consequences that dishonor God, if Christ death does not actually save all for whom Christ died ! If the unscriptural man made doctrine that Christ died for all without exception is true it:
1. Reflects poorly on the Wisdom of God in that He purposed for all mens salvation and was disappointed in that purpose, which does not say much for Christ being the Wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Cor 2:2-7
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2. It reflects poorly on the Justice of God, in fact it denotes Him as being unjust, to Christ and to those Christ died for [1 Cor 15:3] Because He did not discharge them, even though all their sins and transgressions were answered for by their Surety, or it would seem that the death of their Surety was enough to make a full forgiveness of sins for them.
3. This gives sinners reason to boast, for it appears that all the efficacy and success of all that Christ has accomplished has been put on hold until something is done by the sinner, something obviously Christ did not do, and so sinners become a principal in procuring their own Salvation or deliverance. Now men may fool themselves with their false humility, stating that there is nothing meritorious about accepting a gift, but the honest Truth is, if that is what made the difference in the eternal affair of being saved or Lost, then it may be accounted to their decision, their wisdom or prudence which made the difference and not Christ. They also can always feel better about themselves than their neighbor who may be lost for not being as wise as they were, which is a secret boast before God.
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Zeke
Well-known member
Yep thats what is going on, but not just with beloved most of the rest are also in the same boat, they can't see it, they point fingers at beloved but they are helping with paddling the same freewill, limited election canoe, their facing each other and paddling against each other :bang: but its the same tradistional canoe. Its all a distraction away from what God did through Jesus for all men, in due times. Ephesians 1:10-11. Christ is soveriegn over mans freewill and over death, and the gates of hades won't prevail against life. Thats the only real goodnews for man, and is the only one that truly shows the heart of God for those who are blind, naked, ignorant, prisoners of their own wills, enemies of God who uses that evil and turns it all into good through coming times :cheers:.
God will prove He is God, and not some lesser god of freewill theories that have no power to save all the:baby:, or the god of the mad professors of limited selection which aborts most of the :baby: and they say this is Gods ideal. They both lack in seeing His true nature and the power of His Love to forgive all sin and save all the :baby:. No they cry I don't want all to be saved, it isn't possible!! I refuse to except a God like that, get away from me you heritics who say such things, away with such a man Acts 22:21-22.
They believe adam has more power then his Saviour who created him and the whole universe :rotfl:.
Grace, Zeke.
beloved57
Well-known member
He died for the seed of Abraham !
That God dealt specifically with the Nation of Israel, they were a type, in That he was indicating that He had a interest in a specific People, and not all people in the world. So that's why when He became incarnate, He took on the seed of a specific people ,the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. cp Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
You see, contrary to what people teach and believe, Abraham's seed is comprised of both jew and gentile if they are of Faith. Now it was necessary that He should take part of the same flesh of blood, in which His Children Heb 2:13
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
had transgressed the Law in Adam, so He could legally be identified with them in their low state.
He only identified with their sins, not with the sins of all people without exception. The key for the universality of His death, is that the specific seed of Abraham was universal Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
That God dealt specifically with the Nation of Israel, they were a type, in That he was indicating that He had a interest in a specific People, and not all people in the world. So that's why when He became incarnate, He took on the seed of a specific people ,the seed of Abraham Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. cp Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
You see, contrary to what people teach and believe, Abraham's seed is comprised of both jew and gentile if they are of Faith. Now it was necessary that He should take part of the same flesh of blood, in which His Children Heb 2:13
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
had transgressed the Law in Adam, so He could legally be identified with them in their low state.
He only identified with their sins, not with the sins of all people without exception. The key for the universality of His death, is that the specific seed of Abraham was universal Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
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beloved57
Well-known member
He died for the Many !
There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !
Jesus spake and said in regards to His redemptive blood Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Now this word Many though it signifies a large number:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4183&t=KJV
Yet it also entails a restrictive significance, which limits its application to all men without exception. Yet due to its large quantity it signifies, it can be modified by the words all or every the adjective pas, and this is where the unlearned and unstable wrest scripture and distort scripture to their own preordained destruction or condemnation.
Now in light of this, We will set forth from scripture the use of the restrictive, but of wide scope, term Many, as it relates to objects of Christ Death. Going back first to the OT in prophesy, regarding Christ death Isa 53:11-12
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now I know this is a debatable with some, but I believe this is referring to Christ and the Shedding of His Blood for the New Covenant. The word for confirm here the word gabar and it means " To make Strong "
Now thats what Christ did in the New Covenant when He shed His Blood for the many Heb 9:17
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
So, By His blood shed, He confirmed or gave force to the covenant for many.
The many here would be for the ingathering of the gentiles and the conversion of the elect jews post cross.
Now here are some NT references for the word Many in a context of Christ death or fruits of it. Matt 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
So the adjective pas in 1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The all here modifies the many of Matt 20:28, because the Many here is comprised of all different races and classes opposed to just ethnic jews. But its still restricted to many as Jesus stated.
Mk 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The Many here actually clarifies who the every is in vs 9, He tasted death for the many or every son ! The word man is not in the original, it ends with pas !
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
This scripture too, gives light to Heb 2 9, for its the same objects of His death in both references, to taste death in Heb 2:9 is the same as being once offered here in Heb 9:28, and its stated that He was offered for many, the restrictive term.
Rom 5:15,19
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.
There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !
Jesus spake and said in regards to His redemptive blood Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Now this word Many though it signifies a large number:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4183&t=KJV
Yet it also entails a restrictive significance, which limits its application to all men without exception. Yet due to its large quantity it signifies, it can be modified by the words all or every the adjective pas, and this is where the unlearned and unstable wrest scripture and distort scripture to their own preordained destruction or condemnation.
Now in light of this, We will set forth from scripture the use of the restrictive, but of wide scope, term Many, as it relates to objects of Christ Death. Going back first to the OT in prophesy, regarding Christ death Isa 53:11-12
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now I know this is a debatable with some, but I believe this is referring to Christ and the Shedding of His Blood for the New Covenant. The word for confirm here the word gabar and it means " To make Strong "
Now thats what Christ did in the New Covenant when He shed His Blood for the many Heb 9:17
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
So, By His blood shed, He confirmed or gave force to the covenant for many.
The many here would be for the ingathering of the gentiles and the conversion of the elect jews post cross.
Now here are some NT references for the word Many in a context of Christ death or fruits of it. Matt 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
So the adjective pas in 1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The all here modifies the many of Matt 20:28, because the Many here is comprised of all different races and classes opposed to just ethnic jews. But its still restricted to many as Jesus stated.
Mk 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Heb 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
The Many here actually clarifies who the every is in vs 9, He tasted death for the many or every son ! The word man is not in the original, it ends with pas !
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
This scripture too, gives light to Heb 2 9, for its the same objects of His death in both references, to taste death in Heb 2:9 is the same as being once offered here in Heb 9:28, and its stated that He was offered for many, the restrictive term.
Rom 5:15,19
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.
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Ardima
New member
it was a nice attempt, but if you would actually look at the context of each scripture that you are referencing, you will see that you are mistaken. Let me explain.
You have to realize that there are two seperate things being referenced here. The verses you point out that say "many" is in relation to the Old Covenant. It in no way limits the "all" used in relation to the New Covenant... When you look at the whole picture you can see that the New Covenant was an extention of the promise of salvation to "all" (Jews and Gentiles) because the "many" (Jews) rejected The Messiah.
I wish I had the time to lay out the whole thing for everyone, but one must remember that even though the New Covenant does cover "all," it in no way negates the Old Covenant that only covers "many." And as you pointed out, a testament (will or covenant) can only be effective after death (death giving it power) This is why Jesus died for many (those under the Old Covenant) it gave power to the OC and instated a NC which also needs death to be effective..... Have you ever wondered why there is a "second" death referenced in Revelation?
To give an overview of the whole picture: the life Jesus gave covered the "many" bringing the OC into full effect, but the blood Jesus placed on the mercy seat in heaven covered "all" instating the NC which will be brought into full effect only after the "second death" occurs.... This is why Jesus' life was a ransom, and His blood was a downpayment.
beloved57
Well-known member
more on the Many !
Now again, the religionists does away with this specific restrictive Term " The Many" and forcefully and willfully twists the terms such as all, every, world, and whole world to mean every single individual as being the objects of Christ death, when again these words should be understood within the framework or definition of the restrictive term "The Many". Thats because a very Large number from out of every ethnic group around or throughout the world will comprise the restricted Many. Basically, the Many is restricted to the Seed of Abraham, which is comprised of all the people of Faith around and throughout the World, because Abraham was made a Father of Many Nations Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
And Christ Identified with that People Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
And all that belong to Christ by Faith, regardless of race, nationality are the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now again, the religionists does away with this specific restrictive Term " The Many" and forcefully and willfully twists the terms such as all, every, world, and whole world to mean every single individual as being the objects of Christ death, when again these words should be understood within the framework or definition of the restrictive term "The Many". Thats because a very Large number from out of every ethnic group around or throughout the world will comprise the restricted Many. Basically, the Many is restricted to the Seed of Abraham, which is comprised of all the people of Faith around and throughout the World, because Abraham was made a Father of Many Nations Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
And Christ Identified with that People Heb 2:16
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
And all that belong to Christ by Faith, regardless of race, nationality are the seed of Abraham Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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Ardima
New member
I was not explaining away anything... In fact, I explained why both are there and mean exactly what they say. You are picking and choosing what verses you wish to use. I fail to see where a single verse Galatians (Written specifically to Gentiles) can be used to support a claim made in Hebrews (written specifically to the Jews) when it should be painfully obvious why the book is call Hebrews in the first place. Besides that fact, when Jesus walked the earth, He was focused on the Jews, thus even He was talking about the many under the Old Covenant. The only thing He did was tell the Jews that they would reject Him and that he would make a Covenant that would extend to the Gentiles because of that rejection.
You are right in claiming that God made many nations out of Abram; however, nations is not the same as types of people.... Noah was the one to give birth to many types of people-- his family was the only one to survive the flood-- but Noah did not give birth to many "nations." Abraham was the father of twelve sons, and there were twelve tribes (nations) named after these sons. I should not have to remind you of this....
You claim that I can't accept the truth, but you are the one twisting the meaning of words in order to fit verses into your perspective. you can't seem to handle the fact that when the bible says "all" it means "all", and when it says "many" it means "many" without either compromising the meaning of the other.
The problem most people have is that they love to claim they are rightly dividing scripture when instead they are doing the opposite and wrongly joining scripture. There is a reason scripture must be divided and not joined.... just something to think about.
coulter4president
New member
God chose the nation of Israel to be the perveyors of His Word in the same way that God chooses priests for His Church (Roman Catholic and all those that don't stray too far from the RCC teachings)... As the Word says, we are a "holy priesthood, a people (nation) set apart.. but this was said about the Christian church, not just Israel... "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should [come to Him]"
it makes no sense whatsoever that God would only want some people saved and not others...
"God is no respector of persons"
In the Old Testament it speaks of punishing people for certain sins... but other than that, God never approved of harming people just because they were not Hebrews... In fact, He commanded that the alien be treated w/ rrespect... becus, as He told the Israelities,"you were once an alien."
beloved57
Well-known member
Made like unto His Brethren !
Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
This scripture if understood aright, teaches against the false Ideal that Christ died for all men without exception.
Yes, He was made like unto His Brethren. What Brethren ? Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The predestinated ones. He was their brother, before He was made like unto them in His incarnation, and so they were His brethren before He died for them in the flesh. Many of them did not even exist yet at that time, save only in the Mind and Purpose of God. Now we are not talking about his brethren according to the flesh, or ethnicity, or biologically, for many of the biological jews did not even have God as their Father as per Jn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
But all those by Eternal Purpose who God predestined to be conformed to His Image, that He may be the First Born of many Brethren, even all the Children of Promise, not of the jews only, but also the gentile..
He was made like unto them, and them only, that He might be a merciful High Priest to them, and them only, and that He might make reconciliation for their sins [The People] and theirs only.
Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
This scripture if understood aright, teaches against the false Ideal that Christ died for all men without exception.
Yes, He was made like unto His Brethren. What Brethren ? Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The predestinated ones. He was their brother, before He was made like unto them in His incarnation, and so they were His brethren before He died for them in the flesh. Many of them did not even exist yet at that time, save only in the Mind and Purpose of God. Now we are not talking about his brethren according to the flesh, or ethnicity, or biologically, for many of the biological jews did not even have God as their Father as per Jn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
But all those by Eternal Purpose who God predestined to be conformed to His Image, that He may be the First Born of many Brethren, even all the Children of Promise, not of the jews only, but also the gentile..
He was made like unto them, and them only, that He might be a merciful High Priest to them, and them only, and that He might make reconciliation for their sins [The People] and theirs only.
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coulter4president
New member
only to those with closed minds who dont care about any truth that doesn't conform to their own subjective, prejudiced, taught-thro-brainwashing truth...