ECT The Land Promise the LORD Gave To David
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Interplanner
Well-known member
I doubt that's what the intention was--that it matches some kind of land promise, not when all the other places (including parables) don't bother with the land, like Mt 22 and the vineyard in 21 where a new 'nation' is created anyway. why would the land matter when it was going to be irrevocably destroyed? There was a lesson to be learned and you don't go undoing if you are serious as a parent or leader.
Also I have to see a totally clear NT letter/didactic passage. Can't base it on a parable.
For one thing on this: he's king back in that other land. That is the opposite of how you are using it. There were people in the land where money was lent that did not want him king and he destroys them, but he was still king in the other land.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Please be specific. And explain why the Lord would "alter" the promises which He made to David since He said He would do no such thing.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Why does David call him Lord? That will help you unpack Acts 13:34, which is Is 55:3 about Christ. Notice that this quote, Paul says, is expressing/demonstrating that God raised Christ from the dead, which is the coronation. Christ reigns by completing the Gospel of forgiveness.
All this is the apostles' teaching 101. All materials on 'the promise to the land' should be dumped forthright, and all such teach needs to stack out to exactly what Paul is saying here. The things promised to David were transferred to Christ and the transfer was proven, not because of anything that did or will happen in Israel, but because of the resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of man's sins.
Everything the Bible is actually saying about these things is so totally different from D'ism and 2P2P that all that kind of thinking should be a pile of burnt books in our minds.
Until you actually sound something like vs 32-39, I see nothing of value in what you are saying, it is missing so much.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You see nothing of value in regard to the promises which He made to David. The Lord said that He would not alter those promises.
According to you the Lord lied to David because He altered the land promise He made to David.
Interplanner
Well-known member
lol, you don't see anything about the promises to David? There is the problem sir, look again.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have quoted the land promises the Lord made to David. Here it is again:
"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).
"And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:
"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up"(Jer.24:6).
"And not pluck them up"! The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:
"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).
The Israelites will be brought back to the land which the Lord gave Jacob and they will not be plucked out of that land. That is what the Lord promised David and He said that He would not alter that promise.
But since you have no place for that promise in your eschatology you say that the Lord altered the land promise He made to David despite the fact that He said thst He would not alter them.
You would rather cling to your mistaken ideas even though those ideas make the Lord a liar!
Interplanner
Well-known member
IN ACTS 13!!!
I will never take your views over Pauls. Don't bother trying that. You have to be consistent with what Paul says here, and the proof of the promises being given to Christ is the resurrection.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Acts 13 talks about one promise and has nothing to do with the land promises which the Lord made to David. According to your mistaken ideas the Lord "altered" the land promises which He made to David despite the fact that He said He would do no such thing.
You refuseto believe what the Lord said.
TweetyBird
New member
It's pretty clear from NT Scripture that Jesus fulfilled all that was prophesied to David -- including the land. In Christ, all Jews who believe are indwelt by His Spirit, and remain in Him. That is the fulfillment of the promise to David. We are in Him and He is in us, for all eternity. The Kingdom of God is within.
If one is looking for a physical fulfillment, they are not going to find it in the NT, because it does not exist.
If one is looking for a physical fulfillment, then Nehemiah and Ezra show a completed fulfillment around 500BC pertaining a remnant from all the tribes invited to join Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. This is why the Jews have been called "Israel" since that point, including the NT.
The NT states that the OT saints are not seeking for an earthly country - and if they were given the choice to return to the earthly, they would not. They seek a heavenly city built by God that is to come.
The NT also states that Christ is that Temple, the New Jerusalem, and that He has translated His beloved to His Heavenly Kingdom. The only way to be given that city is by believe in Him and that includes all Jews who believe on Jesus.
The OT prophets and Paul stated that only a remnant, a third of the Jews would be saved. There are no more land promises to depend upon, for the kingdom of God is not of this world. The opportunity to live in the "promised land" is now Heaven and that can only be reached through Christ. Not all Jews will believe, most will not. The Jewish rejection, as a nation, will continue until Judgment - only a remnant will be saved. Just as there will only be a remnant of Gentiles who will be saved.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Well done. The closest the NT comes to the passages JS is quoting is in Heb about the new covenant and it's not the land that matters in it.
beloved57
Well-known member
Land promises ? All the promises of God are in Christ fulfilled, they are fulfilled Spiritually 2 Cor 1:20
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So are you asserting that the Lord did in fact "alter" this land promise in "bold" that He made to David?:
"Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).
"And move no more"!
The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:
"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).
According to your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 1:20 the Lord lied to David because He altered those promises despite the fact that He said that He would do no such thing!
beloved57
Well-known member
It's Spiritually fulfilled in Christ.
Interplanner
Well-known member
beloved57
Well-known member
Huh?
Interplanner
Well-known member
The more exact question of Jesus about Ps 110 was: 'how can (Christ) be David's son?' Mt 22:45, Ps 110:1.
The Psalm was not worshipping David--nor his son.
beloved57
Well-known member
I'm not discussing that. My point is that the promises made to David in Ps 89 are fulfilled Spiritually in Christ! Has nothing to do with physical land!
Interplanner
Well-known member
But it is the consistent exegesis of Christ and the apostles that the 'Lord' in the psalm was not David.
You are right about Ps 89 of course. Actually in a parallel in Is 54, you'll find that the new form of fulfillment is how God answers the 'liar' accusation. He says that the Messiah's new kingdom will be like the days of Noah--a commitment not to devastate his people again, but that would be believers of the Messiah of ch 53. (The ethne was devastated by the DoJ).
The NT use of Is 53-55 is the crux of everything. I don't know of a NT use of Ps 89 but we do know that Acts 13 redirected the promises to David by quoting Is 55.
Interplanner
Well-known member
My mistake Beloved57:
There are 10 citations of Ps 89 in the Metzger Greek text. And since both Acts 13 (89:20) and Jn 12:34 (89:36) are among the NT instances, this matters much more than I thought. My bad.
Jn 12:34 is how Judaism raised people to think and is the connection to D'ism; D'ism is simply a return to Judaism's eschatology Christlessly.